20 Replies Latest reply: Dec 5, 2008 5:40 AM by hrh gracie RSS

    Stacking yet again............

    hrh gracie Community Member
      There have been other topics about stacking, and it seems pretty universal that the functionality of stacking is severely compromised in V2 (maybe fixed in 2.1?) by not being able to stack across directories (raw files in one tree, derivatives in another), and in collections... Hopefully, if this isn't fixed in 2.1, it'll be fixed VERY SOON......

      BUT, my question this time is about stacks being visible between LR and Bridge. Typically, I stack images that were either bracketed or shot for a panorama. If I stack a set of images in Bridge it doesn't appear that the stack is available in LR. synchronizing or updating thumbnails doesn't appear to get the stack information. Likewise, if I stack a set in LR, the stack doesn't appear to be available in Bridge even with an explicit "save metadata".....

      What do I need to do to have my stacks be visible/available between these applications?
        • 1. Re: Stacking yet again............
          JimHess-8IPblY Community Member
          Lightroom and ACR share a lot of common code, but I'm not aware of any suggestions anywhere that imply that Lightroom and Bridge are "compatible" in the way you are expecting them to be.
          • 2. Re: Stacking yet again............
            Lee Jay-7OQGJF Community Member
            > What do I need to do to have my stacks be visible/available between these applications?

            You can't - stacks aren't in the metadata, they're in the database.
            • 3. Re: Stacking yet again............
              hrh gracie Community Member
              Actually, it wasn't an exptation, more a forlorn hope... I wasn't sure if I was doing something wrong, and Adobe had actually done what was necessary to make life more convenient for photographers that use both Bridge and LR, or not. Just out of curiosity, where does Bridge store the stacks?

              So, how 'bout this one... I create a stack in LR. Then I assign a keyword to the images. It APPEARS that only the top image of the stack gets the keyword. Is there something I have to set so ALL the images in the stack get the keyword I just assigned?
              • 4. Re: Stacking yet again............
                Dave Huss-H9t8BH Community Member
                You can only apply keywords to the top image in an collapsed stack.
                To apply keywords to all of the images in a stack you must first expand the stack, next select the images, and apply the keywords. This can be done very quickly if you use the shortcuts. Do you know that you can expand and collapse a stack by clicking on the stack numbers (in the upper-left corner)? You can also toggle the stack (expand/collapse) using the 'S' key.
                When I need to apply keywords to a stack. I use the following method:
                1. Apply keywords to the top photo
                2. Expand the stack
                3. Select the other photos
                4. Use Sync Metadata to apply keywords to all of the photos
                5. Collapse the stack

                Dave Huss
                Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2, A Digital Photographer's Guide
                • 5. Re: Stacking yet again............
                  john beardsworth Community Member
                  "So, how 'bout this one... I create a stack in LR. Then I assign a keyword to the images. It APPEARS that only the top image of the stack gets the keyword. Is there something I have to set so ALL the images in the stack get the keyword I just assigned? "

                  One really should not need to expand the stack to apply any metadata to alternative frames showing the same subject. A lot of us think that this really needs changing as it undermines the value of stacking and introduces inefficiencies and mistakes. So there is a feature request somewhere, to which you should add your name. Hopefully we will see an option which allows the current misbehaviour for those who want it, and allows a more rational behaviour for the rest of us.

                  John
                  • 6. Re: Stacking yet again............
                    Dave Huss-H9t8BH Community Member
                    John,
                    I explained how to apply keywords to all of the images in the stack in my previous post above yours. Using the shortcuts shown I can quickly add keywords to a Stack.
                    Logically, it would seem that it should be an option to be able to apply keywords to all of the images in a Stack without first expanding the stack. I can only guess that the developers were concerned that you would be applying keywords to images that are not visible. I would like to see an option that would open a message box asking if you want to apply the keywords to all of the images or just the top photo in the Stack.

                    Dave Huss
                    Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2, A Digital Photographer's Guide
                    • 7. Re: Stacking yet again............
                      john beardsworth Community Member
                      Yes, Dave, I did read your post, and don't need telling how to apply keywords to stacks. What you call quick is something I consider to be poor design, and have said so directly to the developers. Its only justification is consistency with the visual treatment of lower items in the stack - ie they're hidden - and it does not follow the logic that stacked items are frames depicting the same subject. We do not need a message box, which would be irritating and wasteful, but a preference to alter the behaviour.

                      John
                      • 8. Re: Stacking yet again............
                        hrh gracie Community Member
                        Thank you John... I've been reluctant to state some of these annoyances as straightforwardly as you since it usually just provokes a urination festival...

                        BUT, this is the kind of garbage that's unnecessarily aggravating. Yes, I also know how to apply keywords if I want to expand the stack and go through a 5-step process to add a keyword...

                        Coupled with the fact that stacks don't work across folders, which negates their usefulness as a DAM tool.

                        AND that two products such as Bridge and LR, with such similar functionality don't share stack information...

                        And on and on.....

                        I recently heard the question asked during a Lightroom tutorial "Are ANY of the LR designers, developers or testers photographers?"

                        Anyhow, it appears that answer is, at least still at the present time, you have to go through a process even to do something this trivial. Another thing to hope for in a future release.
                        • 9. Re: Stacking yet again............
                          john beardsworth Community Member
                          'I recently heard the question asked during a Lightroom tutorial "Are ANY of the LR designers, developers or testers photographers?"'

                          The answer's YES. It just isn't related to getting things right every time and with every feature. Of course, the more the developers would just accept my views on DAM, the closer they would get :)
                          • 10. Re: Stacking yet again............
                            Dave Huss-H9t8BH Community Member
                            Hi Everyone,
                            Bear in mind that, as with any project of this nature, the LR designers (who are indeed photographers) are not the programers. My involvement with another Adobe project let me view the frustration first hand as the people defining the project on this side of the planet would be told that it couldn't be done by the team on the other side of the planet.
                            So in the spirit of the season, please remember that those LR designers are probably feeling the same frustration that you do and on top of that they are receiving the blame for that which they cannot control by people on the forum - and they do read what's posted on the forum. Also I see in the news that Adobe announced that 600 people were being laid off due to the current economic crisis so it can't be much fun around there at the moment.

                            If you really want a feature the most productive thing you can do to get it added is to ask for it but include a justification for it just as if you were presenting it to the programmers (who are not photographers). It is the ammunition that internal marketing uses to get the code writers to change something.

                            One last point to consider. Some requested feature (like allowing Stacks across folders) may seem trivial but it may involve something much more complex in its execution. When I was writing books for Corel, a common occurrence was to have a request for a simple change but it would be close enough to launch that it would not be added out of the very real fear that it would break something else in the very large complex application. So, some of the features we want many very well be on the must list for LR3.

                            Happy holidays

                            Dave Huss
                            Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2, A Digital Photographer's Guide
                            • 11. Re: Stacking yet again............
                              john beardsworth Community Member
                              Dave

                              I know, as a fellow Lightroom author, that it's easy to be labelled as an apologist and patronising, but please don't feel a need to outdo me. While dkperez's post contained unfair comments, in future I am sure he/she will bear in mind layoffs (sorry to hear), team members' forthcoming birthdays, births and marriages, baseball results, and a wide range of religious festivals, before saying that a feature isn't as good as it could be.

                              John
                              • 12. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                Ian Lyons CommunityMVP
                                I think it's also important to note that not everyone is of the view that current behaviour is wrong. So, simply switching the behaviour so that metadata is written to all photos in a collapsed Stack is likely to cause as much, if not more, negative feedback. Furthermore, a preference is not going to solve the problem either because it only addresses part of a much more complex problem.
                                • 13. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                  Dave Huss-H9t8BH Community Member
                                  Sometimes I get weary of the constant ranting about some feature that the forum member don't like about LR and in response this is how I rant back.

                                  I wasn't aware you were an LR author. Who's your publisher?

                                  Dave Huss
                                  Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2. A Digital Photographer's Guide
                                  • 14. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                    Dave Huss-H9t8BH Community Member
                                    Hey John,
                                    I am not an Adobe apologist but at times I weary of the constant (never-ending?) ranting about some feature or absence of a feature that a forum member don't like about LR. In response this is how I rant back.

                                    I wasn't aware you were an LR author. Who's your publisher?

                                    Dave Huss
                                    Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2. A Digital Photographer's Guide
                                    • 15. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                      john beardsworth Community Member
                                      "I think it's also important to note that not everyone is of the view that current behaviour is wrong.... Furthermore, a preference is not going to solve the problem either because it only addresses part of a much more complex problem."

                                      Ian, I agree not everyone regards the current behaviour as broken - I noticed Lee Jay had commented earlier in this thread and know he held that view, and perhaps still does. Clearly that is why I think we need a preference, not a change of behaviour.

                                      But I do not think that this problem is more complex, or that Lightroom's stacking really merits a wider overhaul. A preference would immediately fix this issue and be the sort of incremental improvement that's needed in stacking. Let the default remain as now.

                                      Dave, it's in my profile which I thought is where such stuff is supposed to go.

                                      John
                                      • 16. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                        Ian Lyons CommunityMVP
                                        >Dave, it's in my profile which I thought is where such stuff is supposed to go.

                                        It is!
                                        • 17. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                          hrh gracie Community Member
                                          Well, I'm not sure where I was "unfair" THIS time, but I've noticed it's a fairly common complaint when criticizing any Adobe product. Although, I'm not even the one that asked the question in the seminar - although, the guy running things cracked up, but never did answer the question! But what do baseball scores have to do with LR?

                                          And, having been a software engineer, software designer, database designer, and developer for WAY too many years, I fully understand that often something that seems like it should be trivial turns out to be extremely painful to implement, while something that looks like it will be huge winds up being trivial...

                                          OH, and all this is John's fault - prior to him and Peter and DAM, I wouldn't have known why stacks were even useful!

                                          My expectations are possibly unrealistic, but LR keeps getting pushed as an alternative to much of Photoshop, and a complete replacement for Bridge (whether official or not, this is the noise that's constantly promulgated "LR is the Photoshop killer"). As such, I figure ANYTHING I can do in Bridge I should be able to do in LR (and easier and more flexibly), and anything previously done in Bridge should transfer and be available in LR. Unfortunately, this doesn't
                                          always prove to be true.

                                          Which'll take me to today's questions, which I'll put in a separate topic.
                                          • 18. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                            john beardsworth Community Member
                                            'I recently heard the question asked during a Lightroom tutorial "Are ANY of the LR designers, developers or testers photographers?"'

                                            For clarity, it's fair enough to criticize features but I felt this specific comment was really unfair to the design team and testers etc.

                                            Anyway, your using stacking may be my fault? Hm, though I don't actually use stacking myself! I see some attractions, but I'm not very enthusiastic about stacks in general - aren't they a great way never to discover those "slow burner" images?

                                            With that caveat, the current keywording behaviour is the biggest deterrent to my using stacks in LR, and another was also mentioned in this thread - cross folder stacking (ie based on the database record ID) would allow for locating derivative TIFs separately from the original raw files. The other factor is that I find stacks' appearance is still too subtle and I don't notice when images are stacked - Bridge is much more obvious. The lack of portability, either through writing stacking data to the XMP or via Bridge's cache (as with ACR) is also unhelpful. Because of these four factors, on the few occasions I use stacking I routinely follow Ctrl G with S to expand the stack, and leave the stack in that effectively-unstacked state. These weaknesses in the implementation mean I'm just not using what could be a helpful feature.

                                            John
                                            • 19. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                              Dave Huss-H9t8BH Community Member
                                              If you are interested, my publisher just posted a tutorial I wrote about using Stacks at http://www.focalpress.com/Content.aspx?id=4696
                                              I would appreciate any comments, corrections, et al.
                                              Dave
                                              • 20. Re: Stacking yet again............
                                                hrh gracie Community Member
                                                Good tutorial, Dave. Quick and informational. Is the whole book written the same way? If so, I may have to spring for a copy and see what LR nuggets I haven't found yet!

                                                Unfortunately, the list of things that can't be done with stacks hits a big one for me - not being able ot stack images from different directories. I'm putting derivatives (.psd, .jpg, .tif) files created from the RAW in a separate directory structure, it means I can't stack my HDR or panoramas or any of my derivatives with the stack...

                                                But, t'is what it is, and hopefully it'll change sometime soon.