15 Replies Latest reply on Jan 26, 2008 1:27 PM by Jim_Simon

    P2 footage - PAL 25pN


      I just wanted to know if Premiere Pro v3.1.1 supports DVCPRO HD 720 25PN? I see the 24PN when creating a new project, but not 25PN. If not: can any engineers cofirm whether or not this is an upcoming feature?

      Thanks in advance!
        • 1. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          I didn't know the HVX200 could do Native in anything other than 24 fps mode. In thinking about it, why would you even need a Native mode for PAL? It's just 25P. Native recording seems to apply more to the NTSC world.
          • 2. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
            Level 1
            Actually I found out. I just tried to use 50P and then imported 25PN footage - worked like a charm! It was actally a lot faster to flip (35mm footage) using the basic rotation 180 degrees than using Raylight. I am SO happy!

            Could be true that PAL users doesn't need the 25pN as bad as NTSC folks do, but you still get the benefit of doubling your card capacity.

            Thnks anyway!
            • 3. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              I don't understand that one.
              • 4. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                Level 1
                I'm using a brevis35 (older version) which gives you depth of field equal to 35mm film (production value galore). But this older model added to the optical path so that the image was flipped. I've been using third party software to flip this footage in post-production up till now, but PPro 3.1.1 actually was a lot faster.

                You can read more on www.cinevate.com

                or maybe I was unclear on what I did: I opened a new project in 720P50 (instead of 720P60 or 720PN24 which applies to NTSC), and then imported the 720PN25 footage. Worked straight away.
                • 5. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                  shooternz Level 6
                  25Pn provides the facility of Slo Mo in the HVX 200 series cameras - a bit like the Varicam except the frames are native.

                  Not sure why one would think it is NTSC specific. It is to do with the way the frames are stored.
                  • 6. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                    What I don't understand is why you need a Native option for PAL. The point of it being there for 24 fps is because NTSC/ATSC normally requires adding pulldown to fit 24 fps into 30 fps. But for film outs or true 24 fps delivery (now possible with Blu-ray), that's just wasted frames. So recording only Native frames makes sense.

                    But for PAL modes, no pulldown is needed, no extra frames/fields are added to make it fit. The camera by default records only the 25 frames you're shooting. So where the Native part? What is not being recorded in 25Pn that is being recorded in 25P?
                    • 7. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                      shooternz Level 6
                      It does not have all that much to do with pull down or film outs.

                      I think of it more as how a film camera produces slo mo. - Actual frames captured as an exact moment in time.

                      In using variable framerates the "Native mode" ensures that only the required number of frames are recorded. Whats not being recorded is additional frames that are not required. Other technologies use duplication of frames within a fixed/constant framerate (eg 60fps). They embed the variable frame rates within the 60P or 50P data stream. These need interpolation and extraction after the shoot.
                      • 8. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                        But what about the standard 25fps. There's no need for a native mode there, is there? It's only used for over/under cranking?

                        If so, then it seems strange to call it 25P Native, because it's not really 25P, it's 48P, or 60P, or whatever frame rate you're shooting at. No?
                        • 9. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                          shooternz Level 6
                          I am not sure what your understanding / interpretation of the word "native" is.

                          25P is just one of the options in 25Pn I guess.

                          It is also important to have it because it is the only framerate that will record audio (in the case of the HVX200 anyway)

                          There is a long an complete explanation of this subject in The HVX200 Book written by Barry Green if your enquiring mind should feel like doing the homework.
                          • 10. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                            My understanding of the word 'native' as regards the HVX200 is that only full frames of the chosen frame rate are recorded. Living in NTSC land myself, here's what that means to me.

                            When shooting at 720p/24, in order to fit the 24 captured frames from the CCDs into the NTSC frame rate of 30 fps, pulldown is added. This is fine when final delivery will be for broadcast, DVD, etc. But, when final delivery will be a medium capable of true 24 fps playback, such as film or Blu-ray, then there's no need to record the pulldown frames, you can record only the 24 captured frames.

                            Is this how you understand that term as well?

                            And while I thank you for the reading suggestion, this particular mystery is little more than a curiosity for me, and time constraints prevent such in depth erudition.
                            • 11. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                              shooternz Level 6
                              My understanding is the same except for pull down.... which is a non issue in PAL land (thank god). Pull down is not the reason for "native mode".

                              50Hz and 25 fps is simple math and its about time you yanks got with the program. While we are on it ...what about this driving on the wrong side of the road. (Joke)
                              • 12. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                                Level 1
                                OK to summarize short my options from my PAL HVX video setup:

                                I can choose the following formats:

                                1080I50 - 50 interlaced frames/sec - 1000 MB/min
                                1080P25 - 25 progressive frames/sec - 1000 MB/min
                                720P50 - 50 progressive frames/sec - 1000 MB/min
                                720P25 - 25 progressive (doubled) frames/sec - 1000 MB/min
                                720PN25 - 25 progressive (single) frames/sec - 500 MB/min
                                576I50 - 50 interlaced frames/sec - 250 MB/min
                                576P25 - 25 progressive frames/sec - 250 MB/min

                                On the PAL version, you also get sound when shooting 720PN25, but only when using the "default" frame rate (25 fps), and no sound when shooting anything else (i.e. 12, 18, 22, 27, 30, 35, 50 fps).

                                So you can clearly see that using 720PN25 is a very good option, since you only record the frames once. 720P25 doubles each frame, so that the timecode is equivalent to 720P50, and this is not economic storage-wise.

                                Even though I'm not certain, I believe films in Norway are shot in 25 fps (on film cameras) Since most film cameras can be set to whatever frame rate you want. This is to get the film out to the video market fast and painfully. If the movie gets a distribution deal in NTSC countries, then I think it's first reduced in speed to 24 fps, then converted to NTSC signal.

                                Of course, this last part could be wrong. In that case, we shoot 24 fps (on film cameras) in Norway like in the USA, then speed up to 25 fps for video distribution (like we do when getting films from for instance the USA).

                                Hope this concludes this thread :) good luck!
                                • 13. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                  >720P25 - 25 progressive (doubled) frames/sec

                                  That's the part that confuses me. Why on earth would the 25P option be recording double frames to produce an effective 50 fps frame rate?
                                  • 14. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                                    Level 1
                                    Hmm... I believe it's because 720P50 is an international standard, so if you'd like to send 720P25 via this signal (with a 25P cine-look) you'll need to double each progressive frame (kinda the same you'd do with 576P25 on a 576I50 signal or 1080P25 on a 1080I50).

                                    I guess the "native" in 720PN25 I means "native to Panasonic", so it's not a broadcast standard.
                                    • 15. Re: P2 footage - PAL 25pN
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                      OK. Now it's making more sense. I didn't realize there was such a 50P option for 25P delivery. Thank you.