31 Replies Latest reply on Nov 3, 2008 1:03 PM by (Marc_Sparks)

    My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.

    Level 1
      Again, my advice is to research the latest CPU's AND GPU's and back off one notch...

      Dollar for dollar, this is the best upgrade I could possible imagine for a truly smooth HDV upgrade. (I shoot almost exclusively with 1080i Sony HVR-Z1U and HDR-FX1 w/XLR adapter.) My next upgrade will be a Sony XDCAM camcorderthat records to a 32 GB card. No, I don't mean the over-priced, ridiculous, proprietary Panasonic P2 card...

      # SAMSUNG 22" 2253BW widescreen 1680x1050 8000:1 2ms vga/dvi-d (gloss black) (retail) (*regular $329 - $29 mwave instant discount = $300, while supplies last!) ($20 Mail-In Manufacturer Rebate Available from 04/01/08 till 04/30/08)ACCESSORIES OPTIONS
      # FILTER OPTIONS
      # TV TUNER OPTIONS
      # EXTENDED PROTECTION OPTIONS
      $299.64 $299.64
      SKU:4762872 - - - -NO00006

      # WD 150gb WD1500ADFD SATA150 16mb 10,000rpm (bare drive)EXTERNAL ENCLOSURE OPTIONS
      # DATA CABLE OPTIONS
      $179.90 $179.90
      SKU:AA41460 - -

      # SEAGATE 1tb ST31000340NS stat2 7200rpm 32mb (bare drive)EXTERNAL ENCLOSURE OPTIONS
      # DATA CABLE OPTIONS
      # POWER CORD OPTIONS
      $249.90 $499.80
      SKU:AA71992 - - -

      # ANTEC tp3-650 truepower trio ATX 12v 650w ul & fcc power supply for ATX casesPOWER TESTER OPTION
      # Y CABLE OPTIONS
      $106.00 $106.00
      SKU:BA23051 - -

      # EVGA 132-CK-NF78-A1 nForce 780i SLI, ATX, Intel 775, 3 x PCIE 16x, Dual GB Lan (Retail)N802 GF8800GT 512mb
      # CORE 2 QUAD Q6700 2.66G (1066Mhz)
      # CRUCIAL 4GB DDR2 800
      # (2GB x 2)
      # CRUCIAL 4GB KIT BL2KIT25664AA804
      # ASSEMBLE/TEST
      $985.79 $985.79
      SKU:AA72490 -AA72272 -BA24053 -BA24643 -BA24643 -BA24767 -TEST
      Total $2,071.13

      Ther are alos some mail-in rebates attached to this order making the total even less...

      The (2) 1-Terabyte SATA-300 drives will be in RAID0 for speed and I intend to install (2) 320-GB Seagate 7200-RPM SATA-300 drives in a 640-GB RAID0 for the Audio and Video Preview files. I will post results for WITH and WITHOUT the Cineform Codec in regards to rendering basic color correction, etc. The 160-GB 10,000 RPM System Drive will also provide faster access to the .prproj file...

      Especially with 8-GB of 1066 RAM, it is my belief that this setup with the Quad Core CPU will obsolete my Cineform Aspect HD add-on. Contact me if you want to buy my Cineform Aspect HD license. (seriously, I'll give you a good deal if you mention this forum message) email - bchil@goaggressive.com

      -BChil
        • 1. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          >I don't mean the over-priced, ridiculous, proprietary Panasonic P2 card...

          Currently, both types are about the same price.
          • 2. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
            Jim_Simon Level 8
            It's a nice system overall. Though I would have chosen the Samsung Spinpoints over the Seagates myself. Shouldn't need a RAID there, even with HDV (which as it happens, has the same transfer rate as DV.)
            • 3. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
              Level 1
              > Especially with 8-GB of 1066 RAM, it is my belief that this setup with the Quad Core CPU will obsolete my Cineform Aspect HD add-on

              I don't think so....
              • 4. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                Dan Isaacs Level 2
                > I don't think so....

                I don't think so either. Cineform is software-only, no? Wouldn't its performance just be that much better on a faster machine, right along with PPro?

                Maybe the OP should instead consider upgrading to Prospect HD/2K/4K at the same time he builds this rippin' new system: An upgrade in both performance and quality.
                • 5. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                  Level 1
                  > Wouldn't its performance just be that much better on a faster machine, right along with PPro?

                  True indeed.

                  Cineforms point is to allow the user to edit HD on a machine that is NOT the top of the range. It will only get faster with a faster system.

                  Cineform + AJA Xena + Dual Quad Core CPU = AWESOME.

                  > Maybe the OP should instead consider upgrading to Prospect HD/2K/4K at the same time he builds this rippin' new system: An upgrade in both performance and quality.

                  True again. :-)
                  • 6. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                    Level 1
                    New machine is built and I no longer see a need for Aspect HD to edit HDV. The difference between this system and my older Core 2 Duo 6600 system is night and day.

                    I just don't want to have to transfer everything to an intermediate codec, as it has been my experience that it changes the video a bit - the last project I tried with and without as a test looked a little software and MORE saturated in yellow, etc. I know that some swear by Cineform, so I will not argue about it. Just my opinion. Also, I hated doing all the dancing with transferring from m2t to HUGE .avi files. (Although now with a 2-terrabyte RAID0 that would be less of an issue!) But still, now I can just archive the.mpeg file and its 13-gig per hour and would fit on 3 DVD-R's... In the future I would not have to go and re-load Cineform to make it work, etc...

                    Jim - As for the Samsung drives, I had heard of them and know they are fast - but I have a thing about sticking with Seagate. (Superstition I suppose, but they haven't screwed me yet) Also, I noticed on the speed test chart in the above link that it was not compared to the drives I bought. The Barracuda 7200.11 is not the same as the 7200.ES2 (Enterprise) drives that I bought. They have better anti-shock/vibration and have a different caching setup, which I am guessing makes them closer to the Samsung in speed. I would like to see a comparison.

                    Anyway, the reason for wanting to get rid of it Cineform is that I feel it was a forced upgrade. I do not like the way Adobe avoided mentioning this and sold Premiere Pro as being able to edit native HDV. If and when I land a project that requires true HD editing (2k or 4k) I will first go to one of my colleague's studios in town and edit there. As true HD becomes the norm I will obviously need to address that issue. I built this system for less than $2000, so they can keep their $1500-$2000 software for now.... Cineform just left a bad taste in my mouth with their sneaky behind-the-scenes collaboration with Adobe. I do not like being forced to buy anything. (Don't get me started on HAVING up upgrade to Quickbooks 2008!)

                    -BChil
                    • 7. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      My guess is the performance difference between the NS you bought and the AS drive tested is minimal.
                      • 8. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                        Level 1
                        Jim -

                        After looking into this more (because of you!) I decided to buy 2 of the Samsungs and will put the Seagates in my secondary editing system. I really like the 3-platter design, which explains the speed increase. Also, I feel that 3-platters leaves less of a chance for failure. Even though they will be in a RAID0 with redundancy or tape, etc. More and more I am using my Citidisk HDV (a poor man's FireStore) for HDV shoots and will not have the tape backup unless it is really important.

                        By the way, aren't you in the Phx area? I am in Mesa but have an office at Scottsdale Fashion Square (Camelback/Scottsdale) We should have lunch someday. If I am thinking of someone else, please disregard.

                        -BChil
                        • 9. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                          I'm much closer to Manhattan than Phoenix. (B&H is my personal candy store.)
                          • 10. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                            (C._David_Young) Level 1
                            I too think the RAIDs are overkill. The SATA drives are plenty fast for HDV. That is all I have and scrubbing is very smooth.
                            • 11. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                              Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                              Try editing in an intermediate codec like Cineform, and use Multicam with four cameras, all off of one drive. You might find RAID0 a bit handy.
                              • 12. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                bchill seems to be dropping the intermediary, using native HDV. In that case, since the data rate is the same as DV, even a four camera multicam edit should be no problem for a single drive, especially one of the new Spinpoints.
                                • 13. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                  Level 1
                                  I just like the RAID0 for the fact that it is one huge 2.0 GB drive. It almost seems like science fiction to me, but then again my first computer used 170KB floppies... Plus, I do a lot of two or three camera shoots and have shot SD in the past, rather than even think about attempting in HDV. I bought Cineform license just a few months ago. My license is currently for sale for $250.

                                  But yes, the RAID0 is kind of a luxury I suppose. I think I will do a test when I get the Spinpoints. I will encode the same project with the Adobe Media Encoder with the 1TB Seagates in RAID0 and then again with a single Spinpoint and then again after I add the second drive in RAID0. I think the single Spinpoint will be the slowest, but what do I know...

                                  -BChil
                                  • 14. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                    I think it's to be expected that even the Spinpoint drive will be slower than a RAID 0 setip.
                                    • 15. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                      Level 1
                                      Bchil, I am interested in your cineform aspect hd license. What version do you have?

                                      ESC
                                      • 16. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                        Level 1
                                        Bchil DO NOT SELL YOUR LICENSE YET!

                                        b "Background: On May 31 CineForm will discontinue Prospect 2K. The reason is there simply isn't enough product differentiation between Prospect 2K and Prospect 4K to warrant having both products in the market.

                                        b All Prospect 2K customers on May 31 will get a free upgrade to Prospect 4K in June. If you are an Aspect HD customer you can upgrade to Prospect 2K during May for $1000, and Prospect HD customers can upgrade to Prospect 2K for $500. This represents a built-in savings of $500 because the price of Prospect 4K is actually $1999."
                                        • 17. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                                          Without a RED, is Prospect really necessary?
                                          • 18. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                            Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                            Prospect2K has 4:4:4 up to 12 bits per channel. Maybe not necessary, but sounds damn nice to me.
                                            • 19. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                              Harm Millaard Level 7
                                              ...if your camera delivers 4:4:4 material. You happen to use a F23 or F35?
                                              • 20. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                Yes, obviously you'll get the maximum benefit if your camera uses the higher depth and no subsampling.

                                                But that's not the end of the story: Even 8 bit sources can benefit from higher bit depth processing. The extra 2 or 4 bits can help avoid banding through successive color transformations, effects, etc.

                                                It seems to me that the Cineform 4:4:4 codec provides an ideal balance of quality and performance for animation and composited material also. Animation and graphics are generally 4:4:4 RGB to begin with. It would be great to keep them that way without poor playbak performance and/or huge storage requirements.

                                                This would be a fantastic format for saving a "master" of your timeline for future conversion to any format. Much more efficient and practical than uncompressed and far greater quality than DV or HDV.

                                                So... an efficient, high-quality codec that preserves the original qulaity (more ro less) of all your sources (whether YUV footage or RGB graphics) that's editable and plays in realtime in Premiere Pro? Yep. Sounds good to me.

                                                I use a Matrox RT.X2 right now, but the next editing system I build will certainly be Cineform.
                                                • 21. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                  Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                  I think the use of a higher bit 4:4:4 "intermediate" for 8-bit sources will reap the same benefits for video that conforming low-bit sound files to 32-bit float has for audio.
                                                  • 22. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                    Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                    > ...a higher bit 4:4:4 "intermediate" for 8-bit sources will reap the same benefits for video that conforming low-bit sound files to 32-bit float has for audio.

                                                    You're right, Jeff. But are you being sarcastic?
                                                    • 23. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                      Nope. It makes sense to do all calculations with more bits; that way, nothing of the original gets lost in the calculations. The final product won't have a magical increase in clarity or color, but one can be assured that no further harm was done to the original during the editing process.

                                                      "First, do no harm."
                                                      • 24. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                        Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                        Ahhh. I think a lot of people just don't understand this. I'm glad to see you're not one of them. Harm apparently doesn't believe in doing no harm. :)
                                                        • 25. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                          Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                          >Harm apparently doesn't believe in doing no harm.<br /><br />Let's hope the women in his life don't feel the same way. :D<br /><br /><Jeff ducks and runs out of the room before Harm can throw anything at him>
                                                          • 26. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                            Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                            He's got women in his life? All I've got is one :) I'm jealous.
                                                            • 27. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                              Level 1
                                                              Regardless of your camera source, using Cineform files is beneficial to any workflow.

                                                              The work is non-destructive. The ability to use up to 12 bits even from 8 bit source does help.
                                                              • 28. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                                Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                                I totally agree Howard. Your Cineform-advocacy has convinced me :) If had known about Cineform a few years back I wouldn't have bothered with Matrox... Then again, recent advances (and cheaper prices) in computer hardware makes Cineform even more viable for good "realtime" performance. I'm not sure I'd get the same performance with my current box... and I'm talking computers here, not wowen :)
                                                                • 29. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                                  Level 1
                                                                  :-)

                                                                  For most users of Premiere Pro I think the native work Premiere does and is capable of is more than adequate. It works perfectly out the box with most formats worth using, it would be nice if AVCHD and AVC-Intra support come soon.

                                                                  But my point is PPRO works great for 80% of its user base who use it for amateur to semi-professional work. I am just saying that anyone using resolutions higher than SD should consider a product like Cineform. The benefits of higher resolution camera acquisitions should not be wasted by having generation loss and putting strain on you pc.

                                                                  It is pointless to have more compression on a higher resolution image and then still degrade it further in post. Check Cineforms quality comparisons page to see what I am talking about.

                                                                  If you are serious about editing and want the highest quality you can get, and keep throughout your workflow, then you should look to spend a bit more money. Not everyone has access to 4:4:4 12 bit source material, but it does not matter as technology changes fast.

                                                                  I am just one happy Cineform customer... :-)
                                                                  • 30. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                                    Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                                                                    The main advantage I find in Cineform is that I can export to a virtually lossless HD AVI and use that in After Effects or save it like I would have saved a DV AVI in the old days. I have never been happy trying to export to a new MPEG2 for that purpose.
                                                                    • 31. Re: My latest upgrade. Years of experience consolidated.
                                                                      Level 1
                                                                      Steven...you just reminded me why I should keep Aspect HD.

                                                                      I don't do much HD work, but I've always been frustrated by the full screen preview. I have a 2 video card, quad monitor set up. I use a Firewire out solution connected to to a CRT for DV editing. But the Cineform overlay full screen preview has always been sketchy. And now that I installed a GeForce 8800, it doesn't work...period.

                                                                      So I started messing around with HDV mode and found that no only did it seem to work SMOOTHER than a Cineform project (at least on my system), but it let me put a high quality preview on any monitor I wanted.

                                                                      But I wasn't thinking about how I deal with files outside of Premiere. Files output to CFHD files can go straight into Encore. It's much easier to get stuff in and out of After Effects. You can output CFHD files directly from Juicer 3.

                                                                      I understand the need some people might have for Prospect, but I don't think I would go buy Aspect today with the system I have. But as long as I already have it, I'll hang onto it.

                                                                      Unless it winds up being worthless in CS4. As long as I can still output to Cineform without an upgrade, I'll be happy.