25 Replies Latest reply on May 30, 2008 2:23 PM by Fighting Sticks

    Filmlook effect?

      Is there a 2:3 pulldown effect for Premiere Pro CS3 that can be applied to a clip to make it look like film?

      I'm a former AVID Xpress Pro user and AVID has a preset effect called "FluidFilm 2:3 Cadence" which you can drag-and-drop on a standard 30i video clip which converts that clip to 24p.

      It's a cool effect and I was wondering if Premier Pro CS3 had something similar? Or do I have to use After Effects or buy a plug-in effect?
        • 1. Re: Filmlook effect?
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          There's nothing included free.

          You can try DVFilm Maker or Magic Bullet Frames. Both produce decent results, though neither is perfect and both still create artifacts. The good news is that those artifacts probably won't be noticeable to the average viewer, especially if they've never seen the original DV footage.

          DVFilm Maker I think has the better deinterlacer, and produces the better results overall. It's also $50 cheaper than Frames. But it's a stand alone application only, and it only offers a 16:9 crop. Which for me means an export out of Premiere, through DVFilm Maker, then import that back into Premiere so I can get an export with the proper 1.85:1 cropping and with chapter markers for Encore. DVFilm Maker also has an adjustable "add grain" option to further simulate film.

          Frames is a plug-in for both Premiere and After Effects, and has many more cropping choices, so that's nice. But, it is $50 more, doesn't do quite as nice a job as DVFilm Maker (though it can be pretty close), and on my system seems to take much longer to render.
          • 2. Re: Filmlook effect?
            Harm Millaard Level 7
            Both will not result in a film look if it wasn't shot that way. You may have to shoot a film look first and then consider how to post it. 24P and all other idiosyncrasies will NOT result in a film look if it was not shot as film, meaning DOF, DOF, DOF, lighting, lighting, S/N ratio, dynamic range, etc.

            If you use a camera with at least 60 dB dynamic range, use a Letus Extreme or Arri prime lenses, have perfect lighting, never use zoom, and so on, you may achieve a film look, but in post you can forget about it. All you'll achieve is jittery images. Well, if that is your interpretation of a filmic look, go ahead and follow Jim's advice.
            • 3. Re: Filmlook effect?
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              I think Harm's advice on the Letus Extreme, lighting and shooting techniques are good ones. I myself don't have a Letus (yet), and often have no control over lighting during a wedding, but I do shoot film style (slow pans and tilts, much use of tripod) and I make sure to frame for 1.85:1 presentation. The results can be very convincing.

              DVFilm Maker definitely makes your footage look more like film and less like video, naysayers to the contrary.
              • 4. Re: Filmlook effect?
                Dan Isaacs Level 2
                OK, I'll assume Harm Millaard was trying to be helpful and not just providing a un-asked-for lesson in the differences between film and video.

                It seems the OP is looking to replicate an pulldown effect that's used on Avid systems.

                (note: although NTSC is usually called "60i", I'll call it "30i" for greater clarity and to conform to the wording in the OP's question)

                The basic gist of the process is this:
                1.) Bob-deinterlace the clip from 30i -> 60p
                2.) Convert the framerate (without blending) to 24 fps
                3.) (Optional -- if you are editing in a 30i preset) perform pulldown on the 24p clip to put it back in "standard" 30i container

                > Or do I have to use After Effects or buy a plug-in effect?

                For better results, you'd need to do both. The FieldsKit deinterlacer provides good quality and can do the framerate doubling required in step #1. It is VERY SLOW, however, and costs about $100.
                • 5. Re: Filmlook effect?
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  You mentioned FieldsKit for step 1, Dan. But how do you do steps 2 and 3?
                  • 6. Re: Filmlook effect?
                    Dan Isaacs Level 2
                    Oops, Jim. My FieldsKit demo expired. I haven't done this exactly, but this process should work:

                    1.) Create a comp with 59.94 fps and drag your NTSC DV clip into it. Apply the FieldsKit deinterlacer to the clip, doubling the framerate
                    2.) Nest that comp in another comp, with frame rate set to 24 fps
                    3.) (optional) Nest the comp from step #2 in a third comp at 29.97 fps.

                    Render out the Comp #3 and enable field rendering, lower field first.

                    If anyone's got FieldsKit try it out and see how it goes.

                    I prefer to do these types of conversions in AviSynth, which should not surprise you, Jim.
                    • 7. Re: Filmlook effect?
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      Seems like a lot of work. I may stick with the two solutions I already have. For now, at least.
                      • 8. Re: Filmlook effect?
                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                        And for all the naysayers out there who scoff at the idea of 24 fps making any difference, here's what 35mm cinematographer Jay Holben had to say about it.

                        >"I discovered The Orphanages creation, Magic Bullet. A software solution that ingeniously turned 30i video into 24p and then back to 30i. Seems silly, but the process added that special something that telecine look of transferring film to video that took out the 30 frame curse from DV and turned it into a film-like image."
                        • 9. Re: Filmlook effect?
                          Dan Isaacs Level 2
                          It is a lot of work and I don't blame you. But it's the only way I can think of to do it "nicely" within Adobe software.

                          At Jeff Bellune's request, I tested the FieldsKit deinterlacer in PPro...

                          Dan Isaacs, "HDV --> SD DVD Workflow?" #186, 19 Apr 2008 10:59 pm

                          I didn't like it much there but it is good in After Effects. (You can't do the framerate doubling thing very well in Premiere). Again, it's slow, but it provides good control and high quality output.

                          In AviSynth, I would just make a custom script function to accomplish the 2 or 3 steps in my first post and batch the files with VirtualDub. Done and done.
                          • 10. Re: Filmlook effect?
                            Dan Isaacs Level 2
                            For the AviSynth savvy, here's a sample script. It requires the following AviSynth plugins:

                            Reinterpolate411
                            LeakKernelBob -- and/or -- MVBob

                            Go to http://avisynth.org for more information and to download the AviSynth program and plugins

                            The script may require tweaking depending on your system's DV codec

                            # ----------------------------------------------
                            # lines beginning with # are comments

                            avisource("your_NTSC_DV_file.avi", pixel_type="yuy2")
                            AssumeBFF()

                            ### uncomment the next line if your DV codec does not upsample 4:1:1 -> 4:2:2
                            # Reinterpolate411()

                            ### here you have the option of using LeakKernelBob or MVBob for bob deinterlacing
                            ### LeakKernelBob is fast but decent, while MVBob is excellent and extremely slow
                            ### Be sure one (and only one) of the next two lines is uncommented

                            LeakKernelBob(order=0, threshold=8, sharp=true, twoway=false, map=false)
                            # MVBob()

                            changefps(24)

                            ### uncomment the next line if you want 24p within a 60i container
                            # changefps(60000.0 / 1001.0).SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,1,2).Weave()
                            • 11. Re: Filmlook effect?
                              Dan Isaacs Level 2
                              Minor corrections on my previous posts (I forgot the difference between true 24 fps and "24p"):

                              For After Effects, I said:
                              > Nest that comp in another comp, with frame rate set to 24 fps

                              That should be 23.976 fps instead.

                              In my AviSynth script, the line:
                              > changefps(24)

                              Should instead be:
                              changefps(24000.0 / 1001.0)
                              • 12. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                Dan,

                                Did you mean 23.976?
                                • 13. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                  Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                  Argggh! Yes, I did... I corrected the post. Thanks, Jeff :)
                                  • 14. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                    Level 1
                                    Dan-- just want to drop a line and say I enjoy reading your posts. I haven't ever tried Avisynth or virtualdub... but dang it if you don't have me on the verge of giving it a go.
                                    • 15. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                      Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                      Thanks, man...

                                      For me, AviSynth was a complete life-altering experience (well, workflow-altering anyway.) I have some background in programming, and sometimes I get so tired of checking checkboxes and clicking "OK" a thousand times... I know what I want to do so why not just code it myself?

                                      I suggest you do give it a try. There are so many great free plugins, and a HUGE community of folks who develop for and use it. A great place to start, of course, is the AviSynth website. Check the the Doom9 forums, too. http://forum.doom9.org/

                                      The way I figure it, if a bunch of anime-freaks and DVD-rippers can use it successfully, video professionals like us should have no problem figuring it out :)
                                      • 16. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                        Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                        >video professionals like us should have no problem figuring it out <br /><br />I think you overestimate the technical side of "us".  Often, the creative side is augmented only slightly by technical knowledge.  Witness the seeming preponderance of Mac users in the creative arts.<br /><br /><the previous comment was made entirely tongue-in-cheek; no offense to PC or Mac users or video professionals was intended><br /><br />You got me to try VirtualDub; AviSynth may take some more convincing.<br /><br />"Why?", you may ask.  Well, I could learn to be a lot better at expressions in After Effects.  I could learn to be a lot better at scripting in DVDLab Pro.  But the front-end time investment, as well as the continuing need to refresh my skills make the sometimes-unnecessarily-expensive point-and-click solution very attractive.  Now it is suggested that I learn yet another scripting protocol.<br /><br /><sigh>
                                        • 17. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                          Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                          > I think you overestimate the technical side of "us".

                                          I know, I know... I was half-joking also. I'm a point-and-click guy, too, in a lot of cases. AviSynth is much easier than expression controls, I think: Not to mention the scripts are very reusable (kind of like presets for batch processing, in many cases).

                                          Commands like ChangeFPS(24), BicubicResize(720,480), ConvertToRGB() are just so sensible to me. I understand it's not the same for everyone.

                                          When I think of all the other scripting languages I've learned in recent years... Perl, PHP, Javascript, SQL... AviSynth was laughably easy -- maybe as hard to learn as HTML.
                                          • 18. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                                            >I think you overestimate the technical side of "us".

                                            I have to second that to a degree. I'm pretty good at many technical things, but programming for me is a long lost skill. Nowadays I prefer those checkboxes and such.

                                            And I don't change my own oil any more, either.
                                            • 19. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                              Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                              As I said before, if Premiere could do everything I wanted to do I would have never bothered learning anything else. But it cannot. Necessity (and Frank Zappa) are the mothers of invention.

                                              > And I don't change my own oil any more, either.

                                              I couldn't change my own oil if you paid me. Never could.
                                              • 20. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                OK. Maybe Premiere can't do it on it's own, but there are now two options that can do it, without the programming.

                                                I wonder how the three methods stack up.
                                                • 21. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                                  do you guys know if there is any way to do it with the included color corrections of premiere ? ive' read somewhere that you can start to decrease 5% contrast and +10% the rest of the values...
                                                  any fine tuning to share ??
                                                  • 22. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                                    Fighting Sticks Level 2
                                                    Video is sharp and fast, and when people are paying you money they want to see something the looks 'motion picture' like, not video. Here's a trick I use that seems to really rock client's socks. It's my attempt to create a film look and it makes people happy. Show them the untreated edit and then the film look edit and they'll go the film look edit every time. Use the PPro Time Remapping feature and slow everything down a bit, not too much - experiment for yourself. This acheives a look where everyone's movements appear more directed, focused and thought through. It tends to be easier on the eye snd gives those in shot a sublimely increased depth.
                                                    • 23. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                      Cool tip, Jarrod. I'll have to try it.

                                                      >Use the PPro Time Remapping feature and slow everything down a bit, not too much - experiment for yourself.

                                                      Without experimenting, I bet that for NTSC the amount of slowdown is very close to the amount that is required to slow 29.97 fps video to 24 fps video. :)

                                                      Same thing in PAL land?
                                                      • 24. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                                        Phil Griffith Level 2
                                                        won't that slow down sound as well. Is it recognizable?
                                                        • 25. Re: Filmlook effect?
                                                          Fighting Sticks Level 2
                                                          Da,
                                                          But you can clean this up in your ADR process, however by experimenting I'll find you might not have to. You know how people often say, 'OMG, this that how I really sound?'. If it's to extreme you're ADR skills have to come into play but by finding a magic reduction rate you'll find that it doesn't sound slowed down at all. In fact I'd report it makes men's voices sound deeper and women's voices sound 'husky' or sexualised. Along with a more thoughted motion this ausdio influence is also very well recieved by clinets if not done to heavily. Treat it like alcohol, a little is good, too much is bad.