23 Replies Latest reply on Jun 17, 2008 11:21 AM by TradeWind

    Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!

    Level 1
      Hello All!

      Now wait a minute, I didn't say that, I got this from the May 2008 of DV Magazine, and it bugs me.

      Here is the quote: " but I don't know a single professional (or even aspiring professional) editor that uses Adobe Premier."

      This came from the article titled "Trial By Fire" by Jay Holben.

      Avid and FCP appear to be this gentleman's NLEs of choice. But he apparently doesn't have a very good opinion of PPro, nor does he think any other "Professional" does either.

      I have some of my shoots edited in FCP or on various Avid platforms, and I don't think that FCP or the small PC based Avid systems have anything on PPro. In fact you can do more in naked PPro than you can in naked versions
      of FCP or Avid Express, etc. And if you talk about the Adobe Production Suite... Forget Aboutit...

      Naked = no plugins, added software, or add-in cards.

      I think that this is Adobe's fault. Other companies get their NLEs in independent films, features, and loads of documentaries. And they brag about it and highlight the fact.

      None of that from Adobe though... not that I can see.

      So if you like working in PPro, as do I, then I guess your not a Pro, and forget about getting a cutting gig with any interesting professional gigs, or features, or whatever... just keep cutting your weddings... Right?

      I'm going to invest in new equipment soon. I'm thinking either AXIO with the non-professional CS3 suite, or FCP on a new Mac.

      I respect the opinions of the users on the 2 or 3 forums that I participate in, so please give me your take on this!

      Thanks!
        • 1. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
          Steven L. Gotz Level 5
          I happen to know of at least one theatrical release that was edited on Premiere Pro so that shows how little Jay knows about the subject.

          I also know of professionals using FCP with the rest of the Creative Suite who have used a little Premiere Pro to get to their goal because of the advantage of using Dynamic Link.

          If you are going to share footage, you might have to play in the same sandbox with the bigots. Otherwise, if it is just you and your team, forget the name and go with the tool that allows you to work the way you want to work, be that Premiere Pro or FCP, or in some cases, both.
          • 2. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
            Jim_Simon Level 8
            I think his comment is more of a perception that a fact. Avid and FCP are very well known and respected in the larger editing community. Premiere may have some catching up to do. And given the other's traditional lead in new features and adoption of professional media support, I can see why this perception exists.

            Adobe seems to be working hard to change that perception, though. They were still last, but were also much quicker to add XDCAM EX support (6 months) than they were P2 support (3 years). And, dare I say it, they just may be the first to market with a full suite of 64 bit native apps.
            • 3. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
              shooternz Level 6
              Who really cares what NLE anyone prefers and what uses they put it to?

              Be confident in your own choice and get on with it.
              • 4. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                >Who really cares what NLE anyone prefers

                Unless, of course, you are working with others and the ability to transfer back and forth is an issue. Then, the majority usually rules.
                • 5. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                  Level 1
                  I read that article last month, and that comment really stuck with me. As someone who works as an editor, using PPro for 99.5% of what I do, that comment really bothered me. I work on a lot of projects (and I don't cut weddings) for some big companies. Not to mention the fact that I also cut short films for both myself, and others - one of which just played at Cannes as part of the Short Film Corner section.

                  When he says he doesn't know anyone using PPro, I say he should get out more. We're here. We may not have the numbers in Hollywood like Avid and FCP do, but there are a lot of us out here, earning a living using PPro.

                  But as for saying it's Adobe's fault that this perception exists, I would say yes and no. Yes in that for years, Adobe didn't really push Premiere like it should have, and didn't innovate as much as it should have.

                  But I think that's changed. I see them now trying to crack that indie film market, and pushing PPro to make it as competitive as possible. The last few years, Adobe has been a big sponsor at Sundance. They had workshops showing how PPro could help you bring your film to light.

                  Premiere is working against a long history of bug-filled versions that were less then cutting edge. Everyone I know that edits with something else is usually impressed when they see PPro now, and how it functions with the other applications. Are they going to switch? Maybe...maybe not. They've grown to love their tools, and want to keep using what they know best. Can't fault them for that - I'm the same way. FCP Studio 2 has some cool stuff, but it can't beat Adobe in my book.

                  But I'd say that if you're going to switch systems just based on what this guy wrote - who's (if I recall correctly) not an editor by the way - you'd be wasting money. Unless you want to find full time work in a post house, where Avid and FCP are more then likely the norm, stick with PPro. Your clients won't care what you use to create your videos with, they'll just care how good they are.
                  • 6. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                    Curt Wrigley Level 4
                    Its hard to argue the facts.
                    • 7. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                      Level 1
                      PROFESSIONAL - "following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional editor."

                      The choice of NLE should not matter when editing footage between computers over networks. Essentially, it's a matter of opionion. The "Final" output from any NLE should be the same OPEN format. I'm so tired of proprietary codecs from these companies (Apple, Microsoft, AVID, Adobe, Panasonic, Sony, JVC).

                      Our company edits post-production for every network you can name in television, movies, documentaries, and internet. We use CS3 a lot more lately than our AVID suites simply because of the access to After Effects, Encore, Soundbooth, etc..

                      Most of the content we work with has already been mixed in pro-tools and/or edited in AVID/FCP/etc.. All of my batch captures are done on linux servers and saved as raw .dv files for DV/BETA and .mxf files for HD. This keeps compatibility issues with client machines, tv stations, etc...

                      We spent quite a bit of time trying to find the best way to batch capture on our server for maximum compatibility. We have editors that are using CS3, FCP, AVID, Cinerella, SpeedEDIT, etc.. The RAW DV can be read by all editors and players without having to import and/or convert them.

                      But! As far as I know Apple codecs have to be installed on CS3, AVID, and FCP in order to edit RAW DV! VLC and other media players have no problem with the .dv files before Quicktime is installed. It seems all of the editors need Quicktime codecs before they can even recognize RAW DV (.dv files).

                      With all this being said, All of our new HD footage is batch captured and transfered to the servers as .mxf files. So far, all .mxf files I've tried in CS3 and FCP are great at 720p and 1080i. Avid requires you to move the .mxf file to the MXF folder before editing! Finally no more "importing" times for the NLE's!!

                      In our office with have four different guys who will fight you to the death for their NLE's. Listed below.

                      1) The open source nerd with ffmpeg, blender, and Cinerella who can render a master faster than anyone with his 64bit linux. (More than 33% faster than the others when transcoding on the same hardware!)

                      2) The Pro-tools/Avid wizard who spent 2 years in "film school" to learn the "outdated by graduation" version of Media Composer. (Most of the "Pros" in news use it because it's the only editor in their news van (NO CHOICE).

                      3) The Apple Fanboy.. need I say more? Point, Click, Done.. What did it do? Why does my PC cost $1000 more for the same hardware? (FCP is 32bit only with 2.5GB of usable RAM)

                      4) The CS3 start to finish solution guy.. edit with photoshop, after effects, Premiere, encore, etc.. (AGAIN 32bit only with 3GB of usable RAM)

                      As far as I'm concerned, our CS3 and Linux guys are the most dependable and proficient in the post production group. All I care about is the final quality and speed of our production services.

                      Sorry to rant..
                      • 8. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                        shooternz Level 6
                        Nice post mrmookie.

                        "a real world comment on a real world situation"
                        • 9. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                          > Finally no more "importing" times for the NLE's!!

                          I think you mean capture. Import is still required to use the files within Premiere.
                          • 10. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                            shooternz Level 6
                            The new word is "Ingest"
                            • 12. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                              Level 1
                              New words for a new era:

                              capture = ingest
                              edit = digest
                              export = vomit
                              • 13. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                Level 1
                                Wow, Thanks guys... Funny, Informative, Enlightening!

                                All good answers. May I elaborate?

                                I do commercial work mostly, but I have produced a couple features and many shorts, documentaries, etc. It really depends on who you have to work with, I have to split my editing among different editors unexpectedly sometimes and finding an editor that can use the system that you started cutting your film on is easier if your NLE has wide use and acceptance among the professional editing community.

                                I think mrmookie is doing it right, but I am not personally up to that work flow, I wish that I were because that looks like the solution for me. mrmookie do you have any suggestions on how I can get closer to operating in your paridigm? I was an editor years ago, but now I am CEO/Produce/Director by trade. And whereas I love editing, it isn't how I make my company money, but I am responsible for making the purchasing decisions. So any guidance would be appreciated.

                                Originally I had 5 reasons for this thread (not in priority):

                                1) I was offended by the comment in the article, because I like PPro and only wish it were more of a standard... that would make my life easier!

                                2) I wanted to see what you guys thought about PPro's strengths and weaknesses.

                                3) I wanted to possibly start an outcry for Adobe to be more proactive in its Branding (I know, not very realistic, but big change starts with small efforts).

                                4) Being that I must interface with so many different editors in my work, and I need to have an NLE that I can find editors that know it no matter where I am in the country, so I want to know what NLE you guys think would best address that issue (not considering mrmookie's strategies which are beautiful but obviously don't address the "If you could only buy 1 NLE, what would it be" issue).

                                5) I need recommendations for my next NLE purchase (should I spend a ton on a new AXIO system married to an NLE with limited acceptance, or go with FCP or Avid).

                                I know this is a tough one for many reasons, and I don't want to start a "mines bigger than yours" debate, but given that I need the most universal system for under $10K that can actually give me the best results for my mix of work and the varied cameras that we use (BetaSP, DV, DVCPro 25/50, P2, Canon XLH1, several HD cams, super 16mm, 35mm, and whatever my DP at the time might be using).

                                You guys are great, I use DV Info Net and the Adobe forums as a valued resource, so thank you... I appreciate all of your comments and feedback :-)
                                • 14. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                  I am a 12 year pro in Hollywood and I use all the major software including the linear bays. I have edited many popular shows including the last 2 seasons of Sopranos.

                                  Premiere is not used because of it's instability and lack of good EDL and bin support. Premiere is a better creative tool than Avid but it's inproper ingest of film footage and accuracy make it unusable, even tho Avid sucks and is slow.

                                  For online, Autodesk Fire/Smoke & Inferno and Avid DS (not actually made by Avid) are the only ways to go professionally. Final Cut Pro is for wanna-be shops and is not touched by anything with a budget, unless you want a lot of problems.

                                  Premiere is not cabable of capturing from an HD-Cam SR and then outputiing that file back to tape immediately without changing the image in anyway including color, timing or crashing, therefore Premiere is useless in a professional workflow.

                                  My online ranking:
                                  Discreet Fire, Avid DS, Linear Bay, Avid Symphony

                                  My offline ranking for creative editing: Adobe Premiere, Discreet Edit, Final Cut Pro, Avid Media Composer
                                  • 15. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                    Level 1
                                    Hey Dookie...an interesting post although not all of us aspire to be Hollywood bigwigs. In fact quite a lot of Hollywood produced stuff is, to me, complete trash. For my own part, my local council here in the UK is more than happy with the 4 camera DVD I have just produced for them using PProCS3. I have never watched a single programme of the Sopranos so cannot comment on your own creativity. In my own humble opinion, it is the WEB and not specifically TV which is going to be the new arena for video creativity in the future. I know of lots of businesses who contact me specifically for the purpose of using the web for promoting their services. You say that Premiere is not used for it's instability - in my own experience, I have never really experienced this as my own system works great. Maybe I just got lucky!
                                    • 16. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                      > Premiere is not used because of it's instability and lack of good EDL and bin support.

                                      Care to elaborate? Especially the 'bin' part?

                                      If Ppro was "fixed" would you chose to use it over Avid, FCP and Discreet products for your major wokflows?
                                      • 17. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                        Level 1
                                        Well Guys, another good turn at the bat :-)

                                        All good answers, and Dookie that hit the button for me. Here's my take, correct me if I'm wrong.

                                        ** For my Web content, stick with PPro, BUT Don't buy the AXIO because it may be overkill for the task at hand.

                                        BTW I have used Premiere with Canopus and Matrox products and I don't believe that it will ever be stable when used with accelerator boards. And when on the AXIO forums, it sounded like they have the same problems that Canopus had, and their RT100 had, so I can relate to what you said about stability. And whereas PPro works much better stand-alone, it still crashes when you try to make it work too hard, as in a high paced work environment.

                                        ** Then for my independent film needs, I'll get a FCP system. All of the shorts and low budget features that I've worked on where cut with FCP, so I will be compatible with those production teams in the future.

                                        ** If my needs are more demanding, I'll go to one of my Avid houses (budget willing-or I'll use PPro or FCP).

                                        Does that make sense - especially about not going with the AXIO??

                                        Thanks Guys :-)
                                        • 18. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                          Level 1
                                          Marotti - don't forget, to be a real 'professional' you MUST have Windows Movie Maker - it really is the future. And a tripod will help to steady some camera shots....oh and you will definately need about £100 thousand pounds worth of cameras (at least).....You could always use a pin hole camera but that's a little bit old fashioned these days - none of the 'professionals' use them, so I'm told. And if you are working on a PC, well shame on you - you'd be better off giving up ANY creative work from now on and buy yourself a nice shiny apple mac. I'm told that only nice shiny apple macs serves the purpose of the REAL professionals.
                                          • 20. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                            Level 1
                                            Not Sure I Understand... UK Humor?
                                            • 23. Re: Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere!
                                              TradeWind Level 3
                                              The thing that caught my interest first was the word "professional," which someone was kind enough to define for us.

                                              I do my work for money. It used to be two jobs (daytime employed and also self-employed side job), now it's only the self-employed job, but in both cases I got paid for the work I did (most of the time...some bad apples out there, no pun intended).

                                              I do corporate and wedding and other event work (plus film transfers and media dupes) and although my wedding clients aren't the highest paying jobs, nor the easiest clients to deal with, they are usually the most fun jobs I do, and they are still (GASP!) jobs. Work for pay.

                                              I still edit multiple cameras together, combine motion graphics elements and still elements (thank God for the Creative Suite and Dynamic Link!) and manage music and color to create the mood required for the job. For the most part it's all the same stuff...planning, shooting, editing, reviewing, re-editing, delivering. Soooooo....why would anyone take perfectly good work done in the wedding (and event) world and try to disparage it? I dunno...small anatomical makeup in certain bodily regions? Perhaps.

                                              There's a bit of a sense in every clique that their work is somehow more valuable, more serious or just better somehow. I like to think, for my part, that it's an advantage to be able to work in web and event video and seldom have to deal with the major productions out of Hollywood and the like. I tend to have a higher income than the folks I know that work out there anyway...so, isn't that a good thing, too? Or am I just a sell-out for The Man? (and wait...doesn't The Man run all those studios anyway?)

                                              Premiere (and later, Premiere Pro) has suited my needs and grown with me since I edited my very first student piece as an aspiring professional to my salaried studio employment to the most recent $30K gig as a professional. It's been hard to preach the good word about Premiere, and even harder to find 1 job for every 100 available where the poster is looking for a Premiere Pro editor. But it's like they say...when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

                                              And it simply must be said....I know too many people who bought a Mac, bought FCP and started calling themselves a professional just because they suddenly had the hardware everyone said they needed. Ultimately, a good final product is what is professional or unprofessional. If the work is good, then it doesn't matter what you did, how you did it, or how you got from A to B to Z.

                                              And lastly, specifically on the Apple/Mac stuff....not that I condone the colorful language on this page, but I found it a while back and the title made me laugh pretty good:
                                              http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant