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People are talking about slow motion not exporting correctly.
I think you've hit the most major issues there, with number 1 being, of course, the most important.
Batch processing - I heard that we may finally get this. How is it implemented?
SD (DVD) out from HDV project
Isn't there some kind of issue with the way Premiere handles color on export? I can't remember exactly but I think Dan I. was one of the people who found it.
There's been a lot of complaining on the Encore forum about CS3 NOT closing the DVD upon burn. Seems to cause problems with some set-top players.
The Garbage Matte problem is that it is impossible to even come close to precisely setting the bounding box. The behaviour is erratic.
(If they can get it to work as it used to, it would be nice if they added Invert Matte option to it - my little wish)
OK -- the most major issue as I see it is handling of interlaced vs. progressive -- Interlaced and progressive sources, interlaced vs. progressive project settings, export settings, assumptions about what is interlaced or not, deinterlacing (built-in and/or via plugins)...
I cannot discuss what has or has not been fixed in as-of-yet unreleased versions of Premiere -- but I can and must lay out my case for the problems in the current version.
The current implementation goes beyond "bad" and into the territory of "disgraceful". At present, it has left me a bit sickened as I am trying to put together a workflow for a client. To this end, I purchased the FieldsKit deinterlacer only to realize that it is (through no fault of its own) absolutely useless in Premiere.
Let's start with the basic assumption that you want to:
1.) Use 60i (or 50i) source material
2.) Avoid Premiere's abyssmal built-in deinterlacing
3.) Create 30p (or 25p) output
To my mind, this seems like a reasonable goal -- but it is impossible. There is a serious bug (or oversight, at least) when placing any effects on an "interlaced" clip in a progressive project. Now the reason why I say "interlaced" (in quotes) is that this footage may well be progressive (it's just that Premiere is totally dumb as to what's what and gives you no mechanism to override its assumptions).
These clips are automatically deinterlaced (using PPro built-in horror) as soon as any effect is applied to the clip. Plugins like FieldKit are NOT an exception: The clip is already deinterlaced by Premiere BEFORE FieldsKit is applied!
Therefore, you cannot deinterlace true 60i or 50i footage using FieldsKit in a 30p or 25p project preset -- nor can you deinterlace footage -> 30p or 25p in another program program and import it into a progressive project, as Premiere will still assume it to be interlaced and will proceed to murder the vertical resolution of said clip as soon as any effect (or frame hold or speed change, etc.) is applied.
As far as I can tell, the only working scenarios are:
1.) 60i or 50i interlaced projects using 60i or 50i interlaced sources
2.) 24p projects using 24p sources
Ironically, you can use FieldsKit to deinterlace footage in an INTERLACED project, but not a progressive project. However, if you try to export this interlaced project with FieldsKit-deinterlaced clips as progressive, Premiere's automatic footage destroyer (a.k.a. "deinterlacer") kicks in, rendering (pun not intended) FieldsKit useless.
Dismal, dismal, dismal.
>Ironically, you can use FieldsKit to deinterlace footage in an INTERLACED project
I would have thought that the correct method anyway. You start with 30i material, you edit in a 30i project, add the FieldsKit effect and get 30p output. No?
>Premiere's automatic footage destroyer (a.k.a. "deinterlacer") kicks in
That part is surprising.
>These clips are automatically deinterlaced
That's not so surprising for me, when working in a 30p project. I mean, in such a project, Premiere is assuming you're using 30p media, right?
Premiere doesn't have the best track record of mix-and-match media like Avid. You're generally better off using one type of media and matching project settings with that. Been that way for a while.
Overall, though, your point is well taken. Premiere needs to deinterlace a hell of a lot better than it has up till now.
> You start with 30i material, you edit in a 30i project, add the FieldsKit effect and get 30p output. No?
Yeah, but that would be progressive output ONLY on the clips in questions. Effects, transitions, motion, etc. would still be rendered as interlaced -- so NOT really 30p output.
> I mean, in such a project, Premiere is assuming you're using 30p media, right?
Oh, if only that were the case I'd be golden. If 30p projects assumed that your DV sources were already 30p, then this would not be an issue. FieldsKit would work as expected (it would remove combing artifacts irrespective of Premeire's assumptions as to whether or not it is interlaced).
Actually, I believe these problems began in CS3. In CS2, I seem to recall that none of this "auto-deinterlacing" stuff occured on frame holds, effects, progressive rendering. It used to work fine, as far as I can recall.
> Premiere needs to deinterlace a hell of a lot better than it has up till now.
True enough, but that's only part of the problem. Its assumptions about what's what and the lack of manual overrides (AE for, example, lets you choose field order / progressive in Interpret Footage) and the assumptions about what you (the user) wants for output. Not only does it lack controls for this, but the results are not consistent (choosing progressive output will cause most filters to do the auto-deinterlace, but not transitions -- and footage without effects gets passes through as-is).
Please ask if the audio dropouts in hdv or xdcam ex projects are a thing of the past.
Ask if those horrendous "mpeg improvements" Aka red flashing AKa mpeg2 stutterer is going to be implemented. After reading what dan issacs wrote about auto-deinterlacing and such, im almost ready to go back to CS2.
DAN - is there any more info available on the problems your having? I dont want to get halfway through a project and find out that the only way i can get footage out is by letting PP halve the resolution.
> is there any more info available on the problems your having?
Such as what, poof? My advice to avoid this for SD is to only use projects and sources that are 60i (50i for PAL) or 24p.
This apparently applies to HDV1080 also, as a lot of cameras record "30p over 60i". I have some 30p test footage from the XLH1 and HV30 that both exhibit the "auto-deinterlacing" problem when filters are applied to 30p clips in 1080/30p projects in Premiere.
So, if you want to use 30p or 25p footage from your DV, DVCPro, or HDV camera you must either:
a.) edit in a progressive preset, but don't use any effects (except for Fast Color Correction, which seems to be the only one that does not force deinterlacing)
b.) edit in an interlaced preset and use a post-deinterlacer to get rid of the combing on your title motion, transitions, etc.
c.) consider a 3rd party solution. For example, using only Matrox effects in a Matrox 1080 or 480 / 30p preset with my RT.X2 works fine. Cineform may also work fine -- could someone verify this?
//EDIT// -- I've compiled a list of Premiere's built-in filter that cause the dreaded "auto-deinterlacing".
So, in direct reference to Harm's question, I'd like to see these things fixed.
Perhaps others can help me here and test some 3rd party plugins also ??? I know that FieldsKit does not work properly in progressive projects... there must be (many) more. I'd like to compile a list of these as well. Caveat emptor.
DAN - so the problems your having is when you import interlaced footage into a progressive project? Why dont you just (in your example) import your 60i footage into a 60i project, export interlaced so that your fx and everything match up (since the problem you seem to be having is getting your fieldskit plugin to apply to everything), then deinterlace it in vdub or some other external program? Sounds like your trying to go out of your way to get that plugin to work.
"nor can you deinterlace footage -> 30p or 25p in another program program and import it into a progressive project, as Premiere will still assume it to be interlaced"
Thats quite odd, how or why would premiere know if a progressive clip were interlaced? Have you tried this with a natively progressive clip, perhaps theres old information left on your clip from whatever program you used to deinterlace. Load the clip in question in virtualdubmod (avs info() script) or into DGindex to check the frame type, as it may be progressive but still being read as being field based. One last possibility is that your progressive clip is TFF, and interlaced projects are typically BFF, though i dont know why it would deinterlace to correct that.
>Sounds like your trying to go out of your way to get that plugin to work
He stated earlier that he had a client that wanted to do all of this inside of Premiere. That eliminates the superior AviSynth/VirtualDub route.
Does said client also stand over his shoulder and tell him where to move the mouse? Sounds like he needs an improved client more than he needs an improved program. But i agree, the editor should have more control over premieres AI, namely what codecs premiere uses.
I would also look into seeing how well PP cs4 will work with HD video from flash based video cameras ( AVCHD ) That is something I'm interested in. I just hope you can drag and drop a .mts file directly in, and it will import it flawlessly, however I know there many out there with the same wish, 10s of thousands I'm sure.
>Does said client also stand over his shoulder and tell him where to move the mouse?
I guess I should have said he had a client that wanted to improve their own Premiere workflow, and that the client wanted to do this all in Premiere.
Deleted by Admin.
>Here is the scoop...
"Those who know can't say, and those who say don't know."
I guess it must have been true if it was deleted.
> I guess it must have been true if it was deleted.
Wow. Sounds interesting. Too bad I missed the post before it was deleted :)
> Thats quite odd, how or why would premiere know if a progressive clip were interlaced?
It does not know. It "assumes". Incorrectly, in many cases. That's why we need an option in Interpret Footage for TFF / BFF / P.
> perhaps theres old information left on your clip from whatever program you used to deinterlace
> virtualdubmod (avs info() script)
This is only accurate with MPEG2Source() input. AviSynth always assumes .avi files to be BFF unless you do an AssumeTFF().
> One last possibility is that your progressive clip is TFF
Well, insofar as PPro is concerned it can only be one or the other, not both.
> interlaced projects are typically BFF
HDV 1080i is always upper field first.
Sounds good, I'm guessing you are just guessing at this,<br />as agreements say you can't say for sure, so thanks for the speculation :-)<br /><br />Dave.<br /><br />On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Mike Carnahan <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:<br /><br /> A new message was posted by Mike Carnahan in<br /><br /> Premiere Pro CS3 General Discussion --<br /> CS4, what are the most pressing issues and are they solved ???!!!<br /><br /> Here is the scoop...<br /><br /> Still 32 bit but this is because of Apple!! Only VISTA 64 supported not XP64.<br /><br /> AVCHD is supported.<br /><br /> Separate media encoder for batch processing.<br /><br /> OMF is coming as an update as well as editing in AUDITION.<br /><br /> Memory issues 70% fixed.<br /><br /> There is a new scaler for better HD down conversions.<br /><br /> Titler same but stable and fixed.<br /><br /> MUCH MORE STABLE than CS3. New interface of course...
Will ULTRA CS4 be incorporated as a plug-in for Premiere and/or After Effects? I have used it for some pretty cool little web videos (converted to .flv) but the workflow was MURDER! (Export green-screen subject AND any and all virtual screen builds into ULTRA then back to Premiere as .AVI for final assembly, etc...
You definitely have to think ahead, because any re-dos are a 5-step process! I would love to see some 16:9 Virtual Sets as well.
OMF, batch processor, AVCHD and RED support, memory issues fixed...it looks like CS4 could be the version many of us long time users have been waiting for!
As if EVERY version has not been promised to be the version we have all been waiting for... God, I hope it's for real this time. What I mean by this is that CS3 was not exactly touted as having memory issues, etc. I will continue to take everything that comes out of Adobe's collective mouth with a grain of salt, until shown otherwise. In the meantime I will continue to keep my AVID license and do any supervised edits with AVID. I am sure the client would ask why I save every 15 seconds or so when editing with Premiere! It may be just a nervous habit, learned as a defense mechanism from years or Premiere editing, but I definitely save way more than could be perceived as normal. I am currently seeing a psychologist in attempt to deal with this...
I love the Adobe interface, what can I say? It looks JUST LIKE Photoshop and After Effects and that keeps me coming back! It would be great to able to use ONLY Premiere, with confidence.
I dont know how anyone could use avid, what an horribly unintuitive interface. Media composer actually converted all my files to QT just to edit with them (wtf), and when i tried to drop a movie down on the timeline where another movie was, it just overwrote part of that movie instead of creating a second video track, and even when i did that manually it still overwrote the audio of the first movie!
Im still trying to figure out why half the editing jobs out there require avid or FCP, as if these productions want their projects to fail.
Here is the news as I got it from one of the technicians and beta testers at the IBC, who showed some interesting things on the current beta version.
1. The RTM version is not ready yet. It will definitely be this year, but it will not be out in September. Most likely is around November and not all promised features will be available in the 4.0 version, but will be supplied by downloadable patches.
2. Interlacing/de-interlacing has not been solved. It is still the archaic approach from the '70-s era.
3. Vista 64 is officially supported, XP 64 is not officially supported, but runs without problems. Several beta testers have not seen any problems with XP-64. All applications are still 32 bit applications, apart from PS Extended, which is 64 bit. Parts of the memory model are ported to 64 bit. The first steps to porting all applications to 64 bit have been taken, but do not expect full support before CS5.
4. The major improvement has been in the project structure. Every project now has its own information about drive, directory and file structure as part of the project. Files in the project can have different properties in terms of resolution, i or p, so effectively this makes for Edius like capabilities, allowing for different sources in a single project, XDCAM-EX, HDV, AVCHD, P2 sources can be mixed and edited on the same timeline. You can move i material to a p timeline and edit from there.
5. Adobe Media Encoder is now a separate application.
6. Dynamic Linking has been improved significantly and encompasses AE, PP, EN in all directions.
7. Batch processing has been added. You can now add timelines to a render cue and continue editing on the same timeline and there seems to be some intelligence behind it as well.
8. OMF has been vastly improved.
9. The garbage matte problems have been solved.
10. Ultra is still a stand-alone application.
11. Improvements have been made to Encore, whether that includes closing the DVD was not really known.
12. Edit in Audition has been restored.
13. AVCHD is supported, RED support will be added (possibly even for CS3). Note that even on a 4-core MAC the editing experience with AVCHD is tiresome and horrendously slow. You may succeed in editing that kind of material, but only with 8-cores. Otherwise it is like editing HDV on a P4 @ 2.8 GHz with a single disk. It can be done, but it is not a pleasure. The CPU requirements are enormous and IMO most will be heavily disappointed that they need to upgrade their PC before any serious editing can be done, despite all the warnings given.
14. The titler has not been improved, but the strange windows problems (resizing) have been solved.
15. Dependency on Red, MainConcept and others make the delivery dates unsure, but it will take some time and new patches are already being worked on.
16. Adobe at IBC has only beta versions.
17. One member here (I will not mention names) is probably the best beta tester Adobe has ever had and this person beats all other beta testers by a wide margin in finding bugs. Thanks for all your continued trouble, NN. You will know who I mean if you are the person in question. One of your colleague beta testers was in awe of you.
The stability and integration of the suite has been vastly improved and tons of bugs have been resolved, so from that point of view, upgrading to CS4 looks very worthwhile. Initially however, third parties have to resolve some issues with their software, like Sony with their Clip Browser, which contains a serious bug, causing PP to crash completely. These bugs need to be resolved shortly and hopefully will be addressed before the RTM version comes out.
Adobe Premiere CS4: The slightly better editor.
An interesting note about my list of "misbehaving" filters in CS3:
Sometimes (not always) placing a non-problematic filter ABOVE a problematic filter makes the problem go away. For example, placing a Fast Blur filter on a progressive DV clip causes auto-deinterlacing -- but placing a Levels filter above the blur will stop it from deinterlacing.
This does not seem to work with all filters -- specifically those that affect "time" (such as Time Warp). It is also interesting that FieldsKit can ONLY be the first first filter in the stack -- effectively disabling earlier filters when it is not.
It seems to me these problems are a core issue with the way AE filters handle fields in Premiere.
Good report Harm. Thanx for your effort.
>5. Adobe Media Encoder is now a separate application.
Good job Harn but what about the audio dropouts I referred to?
Assuming the following are correct...
> de-interlacing has not been solved. It is still the archaic approach from the '70-s era
> Files in the project can have different properties in terms of resolution, i or p ... sources can be mixed and edited on the same timeline ... You can move i material to a p timeline and edit...
... It will be interesting to see how said "i" material on a "p" timeline is handled, don't you think?
Harm, thank you very much for taking the time to collect the list of problems and to report on this.
I wonder if there is any HDV enhancements like scene detect or something along those lines?
There was some uncertainty about the audio dropouts, because the beta tester I talked with had not experienced those himself, but thought that if that were the case they probably would have been solved somewhere in the very long list of bugs/issues resolved. So no definite answer and I had a long row of people standing in line to get their questions answered. Sorry I can not give a solid answer on your question.
It would be interesting to see how it works, but the major advantage as I see it is that the problems you encountered with various filters and transitions can be a thing of the past if you only apply them in the p timeline. The Adobe guy admitted that he was disappointed that the issue has not been resolved adequately, despite the fact that he too has made numerous feature requests, but admitted that in the hurry to solve so many issues he felt it may be something for a future patch. He really was hoping for it.
tlc, I'm sorry I forgot to ask about that. I mostly use HDVSplit for the scene detection capability and the timecode info, so I plainly forgot and realised that on my way back from the IBC.