10 Replies Latest reply on Sep 16, 2008 2:05 PM by Dan Isaacs

    Menu Settings for Shooting in HD

    Level 1
      About to shoot in HD for the first time with my brand new JVC GY-HD200 and I'm not sure which settings to apply from the menu... I'll be building a video in Premiere and ultimately a DVD for NTSC television playback...

      Frame rate: 60/30, 24 or 50/25?
      1080i camera: Off or On?
      REC: HDV-HD60P, HDV-HD30P or DV 60i?
      HDV PB Output: NTSC, 1080i, 720p or NATIVE?

      Should I call JVC? Please help or direct me accordingly...
        • 1. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          I'm starting to be of the mind that if current delivery is for DVD, one should just shoot in SD. Only shoot HD if current delivery will be Blu-ray.
          • 2. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
            Level 1
            So DV 60i NTSC?
            What about frame rate and 1080i camera settings?
            • 3. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              Frame rates for DV will be 30i, 24p or 24pA. That camera will offer 30i, as all DV cameras do. Not sure if it offers any 24p modes.

              DV is 720 x 480 only. 1080 is for HDV, and will require Blu-ray for full resolution delivery. If you don't have Blu-ray capabilities, then just shoot in DV.
              • 4. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
                Dan Isaacs Level 2
                This is a philosophy on which I differ greatly with Jim. As someone who regularly deals with HDV footage for SD (or even lower...) resolution output, I can say that there are many benefits to using the higher resolution source.

                The fact is that Premiere alone is not very good at handling the downconversion. If you'd like to shoot and edit in HD (assuming your OC can handle it and you've got an HD production monitor on which to preview your timeline) I say go for it.

                See my HD->SD workflow page. Though the primary focus of the examples on this page is for 1080i -> SD conversion, the "advanced" workflow option at the bottom of the page will allow you to maximize quality for conversion of just about any HD source (1080p30, 1080p24, 720p60, 720p30, 720p24 etc.) to DVD resolution.
                • 5. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  It's more than just Premiere not being good at down conversion, which your script may have remedied, but it's also (mainly) the player/HDTV not being very good at upconversion of video sources.

                  Hollywood DVDs that come to us after many hours of finely crafted processing may look good scaled up, but I sure am having a hard time getting anything we can make with the Adobe tools to look as good scaled up.

                  The more I try, the more I'm convinced that only HD sources should be used on HDTVs, which means Blu-ray for us Premiere users. If you don't have the full chain in HD, then make the whole chain SD. Trouble seems to come when you mix and match.

                  Even in this case where DVD/NTSC playback is the goal (rather than DVD/HDTV), it seems a lot of unnecessary work for SD delivery. Especially when you consider that possibility that MPEG artifacts could creep into the source footage that would not be there if shot in SD, or the attendant issues that pop up with editing HDV that don't exist for DV.

                  I'm not saying it won't work, but you'll save yourself a lot of headache and have an easier time overall if you shoot in SD for SD delivery, saving HD only for HD delivery.
                  • 6. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
                    shooternz Level 6
                    I also differ in opinion to Jim (surprise !) on this matter.

                    The value in shooting HD is in the "shooting". How it is dealt with after that is a different matter that needs dealing with as a separate matter.
                    • 7. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
                      Dan Isaacs Level 2
                      > Especially when you consider that possibility that MPEG artifacts could creep into the source footage that would not be there if shot in SD

                      NTSC DV certainly has artifacts of its own. I consider the whole 4:1:1 subsampling to be a persistent "artifact" in and of itself. Assuming that you're working in 1080p @ 4:2:0 chroma and scaling that down to 720x480, you can essentially achieve 4:4:4 (or at very least 4:2:2) . Obviously, this needs to be subsampled again for DVD, but is makes a damn fine intermediary for that purpose.

                      MPEG artifacts that can be pretty ugly at 1:1 resolution are, say, only half as bad when downsampled. The higher resolution source is also a perfect opportunity to apply color correction, noise reduction, sharpening, vertical filtering, etc. while minimizing any residual artifacts that these processes may introduce (banding, edge artifacts, flickering, loss of detail, etc.).

                      The process is analogous to scanning photographs at a higher resolution than needed for output. This allows you to tease more detial out of them while (very naturally) reducing noise.

                      I come from another school: You should perform A->D conversions at the maximum native resolution that your optical device (CCD, CMOS, whatever) supports. So, if you have a 4000 dpi film scanner, you should scan at 4000 dpi. If you have a camera with 1080 lines, you should shoot 1080.

                      If we follow your logic, Jim. We should all throw out our DVDs -- and even Blu-Rays -- and only watch movies on 35mm projectors and big screens. I agree that this is ideal, but obviously neither realistic nor practical.
                      • 8. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                        That is a nice ideal, but I agree, also very impractical.

                        Nothing at all impractical about shooting SD for DVD/NTSC playback though. It's eminently more practical than shooting HD for SD, coming from the school of "less processing is better".
                        • 9. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
                          shooternz Level 6
                          >It's eminently more practical than shooting HD for SD, coming from the school of "less processing is better".

                          I can not believe that you come from that school from what I know of your processes! Arent you the guy that said your work is crap without 'Looks'?

                          Anyway....if you could see the difference between shooting HD and using centre extraction for broadcasting as SD you may change your mind (but I doubt it). As I said before...its in the shooting.
                          • 10. Re: Menu Settings for Shooting in HD
                            Dan Isaacs Level 2
                            > the school of "less processing is better".

                            When shooting SD on an HD camera you are doing the same "amount" of processing: just that you're letting the camera (and your DV codec) do it automatically and abandoning control over the process.

                            I'm no fan of HDV compression, but DV doesn't exactly tickle me either.

                            Following both my "school" and yours, the best solution would be to shoot and edit 1080/24p (no pulldown), which will use native resolution of the camera and require less processing in post. Downsampling this to DVD resolution is easy -- and it will allow both interlaced and progressive DVD players, SD and HDTVs to apply the minimal amount of processing to display the image while best maintaining the appearance of the original.