38 Replies Latest reply on Dec 9, 2008 11:12 AM by lymphor

    Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE

    lymphor Level 1
      Hello all,

      I have a HDV 720p project in PPro.
      I also have DVCAM footage and before importing it I need to scale it in AE.
      After that I will import the AE project in PPro (using Dynamic link).
      The question is: after finishing the edit in PPro will I be able to bring it in AE (using Dynamic link) to make color corrections and other effects?
      I've read the manual but found no answer.

      Thanks to all,
      Alessandro
        • 1. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
          Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
          If I understand you correctly, the answer is no. Dynamic Link is one-way only.

          So you could take a Premiere Pro sequence and dynamically link it to an AE comp, but that sequence could not contain any linked AE comps.
          • 2. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
            lymphor Level 1
            Thank you,
            you understood correctly and your answer is clear.

            I guess I will just have to render the sequence in PPro and then import it in AE.
            What render settings would you advice me?
            What kind of file should I export from PPro?

            Thank you again.
            • 3. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
              Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
              I would recommend a different workflow.

              The simplest way, but with probably the lowest quality, is to use AE to upscale your SD DVCAM footage and then export it as a lossless video file using a codec like Lagarith or QuickTime Animation or Cineform (if you have it). Then import the AE clips into your Pr project.

              If you are adept with using open-source software, you can use a combination of AviSynth, VirtualDub and Dan Isaac's sd2hd() AviSynth script to upscale your SD footage before you import it into your Pr project. I believe this will give you the highest quality of the options I am discussing here.

              There are commercial packages available like Red Giant's InstantHD and ReVision FX's ReSizer. I know from my own testing that Dan's script produces better results than ReSizer; I suspect it's also better than InstantHD. The cost of these packages is also a drawback.

              If you are interested in trying Dan's script, I can point you to the necessary information and maybe help get you started.

              Whatever upscaling method you choose, I would upscale the clips, edit them in Pr, and then dynamically-link them to an AE comp for CC and other effects.
              • 4. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                lymphor Level 1
                Thank you for your complete answer!

                To me the most important thing is the quality of the final product.
                If I get it right the best solution (in terms of quality) would be Dan's script?
                If so, yes please point me to the necessary information.

                Thank you for all your support!
                • 5. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                  Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                  >I get it right the best solution (in terms of quality) would be Dan's script?

                  IMHO, yes.

                  I'm away from my editing computer right now, so I'll get back to you with the information as soon as I can.

                  -Jeff
                  • 6. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                    lymphor Level 1
                    Thank you.
                    Don't know if this is relevant but just wanted to mention that I've already tried a conversion using ProCoder 3, but the result was not satisfying in terms of deinterlacing.
                    • 7. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                      You'll like hd2sd better than ProCoder. :)

                      I should be back to my normal workstation by this evening, Eastern Time in the US.
                      • 8. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                        Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                        1. Download and install VirtualDub v1.8.6(stable)(32-bit)

                        2. Download and install AviSynth 2.5.7

                        3. Download Dan Isaacs' sd2hd script function for AviSynth . To install the function so that AviSynth can use it, follow the directions in the "Readme.txt" file. Be sure to also read the "sd2hd.txt" that's included in the .zip file.

                        Let me know if/when you get all of that successfully set up. I recommend loading an existing .avi file into VirtualDub just to get familiar with its interface. It's pretty intuitive.
                        • 9. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                          lymphor Level 1
                          All done.
                          I'm already familiar with VirtualDub, although I didn't use it a lot.
                          Sorry for the delay of my posts but I'm writing from Europe :-)
                          I'll wait for further instructions.
                          • 10. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                            Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                            Great!

                            Let's start with just one clip using the default parameters in sd2hd to make sure this workflow will give you the results that you want. Continuing...

                            4. Select a DVCAM clip that you want to upscale. I am assuming it is saved as an .avi file.
                            5. Open Notepad and copy/paste the following text into the window:

                            AviSource("insert the full path to the DVCAM .avi file here")
                            sd2hd()


                            6. Save the text in Notepad as an .avs file. (NB: you will need to select "All Files" in the "Files of type" dropdown in Notepad so that the file will be saved as "sd2hd.avs" instead of "sd2hd.avs.txt")
                            7. Open VirtualDub and load the .avs file. You should see the first frame of your selected clip in the viewers.
                            8. Confirm that the clip has been scaled to the proper dimensions by going to File>File Information...

                            Once you get this far, the next step is to save the scaled clip as a new .avi file. The choice of codec is important because the wrong choice will make editing it in Premiere difficult. I like to use the Lagarith lossless codec because it's faster and produces smaller files than uncompressed. You want to avoid using any kind of temporally-compressed codec like DivX or XviD. If you have them, the Matrox MPEG I-frame codec and their MJPEG codec are good choices, as is Cineform's lossless codec.

                            9. Go to the Video menu item and select Fast Recompress.
                            10. Go to Video>Compression and choose the appropriate codec.
                            11. Go to File>Save as AVI and name the output file.
                            12. Import the new, converted .avi file into your Pr HDV project.

                            Let me know the results.
                            • 11. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                              lymphor Level 1
                              Thank you,
                              I'll do it tomorrow because now it's late here :P
                              Just wanted to mention that I need to have the best quality, so it is not a problem the rendering time, nor the hard disk space or the processor (I'm using Intel Core 2 Duo at 3Ghz and 2GB RAM DDR2).
                              So if you think Lagarith is the best solution I'll use this one, but if you think there is a better solution I'll use the other one.
                              • 12. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                Lagarith is free, the others that I listed are not. The cheapest Cineform option is their NEO HDV codec for $299US. I think Matrox is only available if you buy their hardware.

                                I have not tried Cineform, so I cannot speak to its quality or speed. From reports by other users, I expect both to be excellent. Cineform has a trial available that you can use to compare it to Lagarith.
                                • 13. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                  lymphor Level 1
                                  I think I'll stick to Lagarith, although I found "Matrox Software MPEG-2 I-Frame Video CoDec 2.5.0.63" as part of this pack:
                                  http://www.free-codecs.com/download/ace_mega_codecs_pack.htm
                                  But is from 2003, I think is old.
                                  I've also found it here:
                                  http://abcavi.kibi.ru/fourcc.php?fcc=MMES&title=MMES+-+Matrox+MPEG-2+I-frame

                                  Anyway, I followed your instructions but I stopped at number 7 because when I load the AVS file in Vdub I get this message:
                                  http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7457/vdubhb8.jpg
                                  What might be the problem?
                                  • 14. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                    Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                    >What might be the problem?

                                    You don't have VFW DV codec on your system. Other software can use the MS DirectShow DV decoder, but VirtualDub needs a VFW DV codec.

                                    I use MainConcept's DV codec, but it is $50US. There is a free DV codec called the Cedocida DV Codec . The linked page at Videohelp.com has install instructions. (All you have to do is right-click the .inf file and choose "Install".) Make sure to click on the screenshot of the codec's Configuration dialog. Uncheck "YV12" under both the Encoder and Decoder sections.
                                    • 15. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                      lymphor Level 1
                                      I've just read your post, in the meantime I've found a Panasonic DV codec (also free, I guess. No money needed for download/install).
                                      But I'll use the one you pointed me, I guess is better.
                                      • 16. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                        Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                        The Panasonic DV codec has some issues with color space conversions and may give unpredictable results. Cedocida is better in that regard.
                                        • 17. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                                          It is. The Panasonic codec will alter the appearance of your footage. Don't use it.
                                          • 18. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                            lymphor Level 1
                                            Thank you both.
                                            I just installed Cedocida but no menu appeared where to uncheck "YV12".
                                            Also about Audio: should I let it to "Direct stream copy" or swithc to "Full processing mode"?
                                            • 19. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                              Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                              Jim, can you help him with that? I've got the MainConcept DV codec, so Cedocida isn't even installed here.
                                              • 20. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                lymphor Level 1
                                                I've tried to go further without uncheckin "YV12" but the size of the resulting file is very big.
                                                The original file is about 8GB, the resulting one is projected as 60GB (and this after only 10minutes of render, and it's constantly increasing).
                                                • 21. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                  Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                  Yes. You will get a very large intermediate file. But it will be much smaller than uncompressed.

                                                  Unchecking YV12 won't help with the file size - it will help with the color rendering.

                                                  When you are done with your project, just delete the intermediate file. It can be re-generated using the same method if you ever need to re-work the project.
                                                  • 22. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                    Selecting the Cedocida codec in VirtualDub, there is a "Configure" button to the lower right. That'll get you to the options.
                                                    • 23. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                      lymphor Level 1
                                                      Thank you both!
                                                      I apologize for the many questions, is just that I'm a beginner :-)
                                                      Just to be sure I'll tell you that in the configure tab of Lagarith Codec I checked "Use Multithreading" (since I have a Core 2 Duo processor) and left unchecked all the rest.
                                                      Thank you very much both, I'll let you know about the result :-)
                                                      • 24. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                        lymphor Level 1
                                                        Also here are my Cedocida settings:
                                                        http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4798/ceocidabk6.jpg
                                                        • 25. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                          lymphor Level 1
                                                          Hello everybody!
                                                          I just finished my rendering and the result looks very good!!!
                                                          The original file was 8GB, the resulting one is 39GB (very acceptable).
                                                          The quality is definitely superior to AE's scaling and to ProCoder's conversion, there is only one inconvenience: when an object is moving there is a little effect of ghosting.
                                                          Is there anything I could do about it or it's just the price to pay for deinterlacing? (or maybe it's my fault because original DVCAM was 25fps and I converted it to 50fps in HDV?).
                                                          I want to thank you both for your support, God bless you! You really helped me a lot, thank you!
                                                          I hope you will also help me with the ghosting effect :-)
                                                          • 26. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                            Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                            Try dv50i2film(bR=0)

                                                            That will disable frame blending. However, motion will appear more jerky.

                                                            There is no way to have smooth motion and no blending artifacts. You must find a compromise between how smooth the motion must be and how much blending is acceptable.
                                                            >original DVCAM was 25fps and I converted it to 50fps in HDV

                                                            Don't do that. Let us know the results.

                                                            -Jeff
                                                            • 27. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                              lymphor Level 1
                                                              I don't know how to use "dv50i2film(bR=0)".
                                                              I though it's a parameter to enter in AVS file but it doesn't work like that.
                                                              The 50fps it's been my fault, I didn't understand how to use parameters in AVS file.
                                                              • 28. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                Sorry. I gave you the wrong parameters. They were for a different function. :">

                                                                I've been working on a tutorial for "dv2Film", so my brain is sort of locked into that function.

                                                                I'll have to check later to see if there is a parameter modification for sd2hd that does the same thing as bR=0.
                                                                • 29. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                  >I've been working on a tutorial for "dv2Film"

                                                                  Excellent. My computers are back up and fully functioning. I'll be updating the web site this weekend with the latest versions and instructions. When you're ready, send me a link and I'll add that.
                                                                  • 30. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                    Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                    >When you're ready, send me a link and I'll add that.

                                                                    Don't get too excited. I'm still writing the script. It'll be at least another week. :)
                                                                    • 31. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                      Pffft! With the time schedules I'm on, a week is quick. I've had the 1.1 version up since September. Dan's gotta be on at least 1.7 or 8 by now.
                                                                      • 32. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                        lymphor Level 1
                                                                        I think might be one of this parameters (but I don't know which since I don't understand them completely):

                                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                        parameter: SmoothTime
                                                                        values: true, false
                                                                        default: true

                                                                        This parameter works in several different ways, depending on the type of conversion. In general, it blends frames when the frame rate is converted. Set it to false for a "sharper" time conversion.
                                                                        This setting has no effect at all unless you are making progressive frames from an interlaced source or converting between 60i/30p <-> 50i/25p standards

                                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                        parameter: lacethresh
                                                                        values: integer 0 -> 100
                                                                        default): 24

                                                                        The is passed as-is to SmoothDeinterlacer. This determines the threshold for detecting interlacing artifacts. It has no effect on progressive input or when another deinterlacer is used.

                                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                        parameter: showlace
                                                                        values: true, false
                                                                        default(s): false

                                                                        This is passed as-is to SmoothDeinterlacer. This will show you which areas of the images are detected as moving and/or interlaced. It has no effect on progressive input or when another deinterlacer is used.

                                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                        parameter: edgethresh
                                                                        values: integer 0 -> 100
                                                                        default(s): 40

                                                                        This is passed as-is to SmoothDeinterlacer. It has no effect on progressive input or when another deinterlacer is used.

                                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                        parameter: staticthresh
                                                                        values: integer 0 -> 100
                                                                        default(s): 40

                                                                        This is passed as-is to SmoothDeinterlacer. It has no effect on progressive input or when another deinterlacer is used.

                                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                        parameter: staticavg
                                                                        values: integer 0 -> 100
                                                                        default(s): 85

                                                                        This is passed as-is to SmoothDeinterlacer. It has no effect on progressive input or when another deinterlacer is used.

                                                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                        • 33. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                          Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                          Ignore the SmoothDeinterlacer parameters.

                                                                          Try setting SmoothTime=False. Like this:

                                                                          AviSource("MyDVCAMClip")
                                                                          sd2hd(SmoothTime=False)


                                                                          See if you like the results any better. Use a short clip that has motion for testing to save time.
                                                                          • 34. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                            lymphor Level 1
                                                                            Did that.
                                                                            The result it's ok in terms of deinterlacing, also no ghosting effect anymore.
                                                                            It looks very good.
                                                                            Sadly I noticed the face of the actor is a little jerky when in movement, so I decided to return to the blending option because actually the ghosting effect is not that big, and I believe the average spectator won't even notice it.
                                                                            I used 25fps this time, resulting in less rendering time (I spared 2 hours) and a file of 19GB (original was 8 8)).
                                                                            In conclusion I can say the result is very good, outstanding considering it's done with FREEWARE soft.
                                                                            Thank you very much Jeff, and also thank you Jim.
                                                                            Your support has been very important, you have my gratitude.
                                                                            I'll mention you both in the credits (if it's ok with you), I'll let you know when the work is finished.
                                                                            I've got only one curiosity left: what would have happened if I would have chosen "Full Processing Mode" instead of "Fast Recompress"?
                                                                            • 35. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                              Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                              I appreciate the offer to be in the credits, but Dan Isaacs is the one who deserves to be there, not me. He did all the work on the function; all I did was test a little bit.

                                                                              Glad you got things looking good. :)
                                                                              • 36. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                                lymphor Level 1
                                                                                Then I'll mention Dan Isaacs too :)
                                                                                I also noticed something: the converted material is cropped in the right and the left edges of the image.
                                                                                The crop is minimum, it doesn't affect me, but I wanted to mention it for correct information.
                                                                                Thank you for your patience and your support Jeff, you will be mentioned in the credits ;)
                                                                                Ciao!
                                                                                Alessandro
                                                                                • 37. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                                  >and also thank you Jim.

                                                                                  You're welcome. Though in truth my own investment was more with Dan's script for converting 30i video into 24p. I don't work with HD yet, so had nothing to do with this process. Dan's the man, Lymph.
                                                                                  • 38. Re: Dynamic link: AE to PPro and back to AE
                                                                                    lymphor Level 1
                                                                                    You helped me when I was stuck with Cedocida settings in Vdub ;)
                                                                                    I'll also mention Dan, just have to ask him first :)