34 Replies Latest reply on Aug 26, 2007 3:38 AM by neil wilkes

    Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3

    Level 1
      I have a relatively small HDV project, about 30 clips captured with HDVSplit. I find that after the CS3 splash screen goes by and while the project loading progress panel is displayed it takes about 2.5 minutes for the project work space to appear. Everything seems to work fine once the work space is displayed re: CS3 editing functionality.

      Has anyone else run into this slow loading problem? Any suggestions as to what may be causing this? The clips are relatively short and the entire sequence on the timeline is less than 15 min.
        • 1. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
          Harm Millaard Level 7
          Yet another unanswerable question without relevant details.
          Look here and supply details as outlined.
          • 2. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
            Level 1
            > Has anyone else run into this slow loading problem?

            Yeah only on native HDV Premiere seems to take forever...
            • 3. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
              Steven L. Gotz Level 5
              Forever is an understatement. I am stuck doing one in native HDV and I really hate it. But I can not use CIneform since it is for a tutorial where the original footage will be distributed.
              • 4. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                Level 1
                Welcome to native HDV.

                It is not that bad once you are actually assembling your shots and editing.

                PPRO 3 is much better with HDV management compared to 2.0.
                • 5. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                  Level 1
                  What exactly is better wrt to HDV in 3.0?
                  • 6. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                    Jeron Coolman Level 1
                    Steven, you should do a tutorial for Cineform. You know that I've tried many times to figure out a workflow that involves it, but I just don't understand how someone can limit the playback of their timeline to the Cineform filters. Every workflow I come up with using Cineform is a step backwards from native HDV.

                    (Although, it is sounding like CS3 has so many problems, we might be better off going back to 2.0. I'm waiting to pass judgement until finishing a project, but it isn't looking good. Capture problems, audio cutting out problems...)

                    For instance, I'm used to Adobe's color correction tools like the histograms and color wheels. I shudder when I think of trading them in for the single Cineform filter with 6 sliders :)

                    I'm not trying to put Cineform down, I'd just love to see a tutorial on how to properly and effectively use it in a workflow. I think I'm probably too addicted to Boris Continuum Complete ;)

                    FWIW my current HDV project has 30+ clips and it opens as fast as any of my non-HDV projects. I'm just not far enough into my workflow to really comment on performance yet...
                    • 7. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                      Level 1
                      > Steven, you should do a tutorial for Cineform. You know that I've tried many times to figure out a workflow that involves it, but I just don't understand how someone can limit the playback of their timeline to the Cineform filters. Every workflow I come up with using Cineform is a step backwards from native HDV.

                      I feel the same. :-)

                      I swear if Cineform supported Adobe's native filters I would by 2 copies just to thank Cineform.
                      • 8. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                        Jeron Coolman Level 1
                        From the Avid environment I came from, you'd edit in native HDV for simple cuts and transitions. For heavy filters and effects, you'd transcode to the intermediate codec, DNxHD. (Which is the same general rule-of-thumb my FCP friends are following when it comes to ProRes)

                        It seems whenever I try out Cineform intermediate codec, the rules with it appear to be the opposite, use it for simple cuts and transitions, but stick with native HDV for heavy filters and effects.

                        Which is why I feel like I'm "not getting it". Which is why a workflow tutorial would be very nice.

                        But hey, if editing native HDV in CS3 ends up being as bad as it sounds from the forums, I may have no other choice than to get Cineform or switch back to 2.0 ;)
                        • 9. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                          Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                          I think I understand your problem with my attachment to the Cineform workflow.

                          I don't use Premiere Pro effects very often. I color correct some in Premiere Pro but not much, and I use transitions a little, but I can use Cineform for that. If I need real effects, I use After Effects. And Cineform works great in After Effects.

                          I don't have Boris. If I did, I might agree with you more. It is difficult to be sure.

                          I am working in a native HDV project only because we will need to share the material for our tutorial DVD, so Cineform is out of the question. But I really miss the speed and agility of the Cineform codec.

                          And this thing about the project taking forever to open? Horrible.

                          My workflow involves using separate tracks for separate types of footage, so it is easy to make a copy of a sequence, eliminate all but the track of interest, and color correct, green screen, whatever, in After Effects.
                          • 10. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                            Jeron Coolman Level 1
                            That makes more sense to me, Steven.

                            Next Cineform test drive, I'll put an emphasis on AE. Luckily all of my Boris filters work there too :)

                            One of the artifacts from coming from an Avid background is, you tend to want to do everything in the NLE, not just because you can, but because it is a pain to export and import into another program.
                            • 11. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                              Level 1
                              The reason I want Cineform to allow the use of more filters, is as Jeron stated I know them and love them.

                              Also I do not always want to or have time to swing a project into AE to apply an effect, I want to do it Premiere. Imagine people who do not have/want/afford AE, to tell them to use AE all the time seems silly.

                              You see? This is what stops me using Cineform, no other reason. I think then the price would be well worth it and worth getting for all types of workflow.
                              • 12. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                Level 1
                                > you tend to want to do everything in the NLE, not just because you can, but because it is a pain to export and import into another program

                                My sentiments exactly.
                                • 13. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                  Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                                  I used to be like that. But it is just too easy to open AE, import a sequence from Premiere Pro, do what needs to be done, and then use Dynamic Link. Once you get into the habit, trying to turn a perfectly good NLE into a Compositing program just seems silly.

                                  However, each to their own.
                                  • 14. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                    Level 1
                                    What if a user does not have the need to purchase AE?

                                    > trying to turn a perfectly good NLE into a Compositing program just seems silly.

                                    True, however sometimes I want to do effects other than compositing.
                                    • 15. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                      > What if a user does not have the need to purchase AE?

                                      I think part of Steven's point is that you do need to purchase AE, whether you want to or not.
                                      • 16. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                        Level 1
                                        > What if a user does not have the need to purchase AE?

                                        I don't know how many people DON'T have AE at this point. I think with all the cool product demos at conferences/tradeshows and an excellent type engine and the newly introduced shape feature, AE is (IMO) not only a desired app, but a required app.

                                        - Aanarav
                                        • 17. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                          Level 1
                                          Guys I certainly agree with you about After FX it is a great tool, I am not disputing that

                                          I am talking about guys new to this profession that have just bought a camera and a PC to edit their wedding videos. They do not even know how to use Premiere. Then for them to purchase AE and try learning
                                          i that,
                                          I have been using it for about a year and find it hard.

                                          You see my point? This is professional grade software aimed at pro's, and I know Elements might be better suited to the guy above, but fact is the guy has purchased Premiere Pro for whatever reason.

                                          You see?
                                          • 18. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                            Eddie Lotter Level 4

                                            So you're saying that Adobe should modify PPro to pander to people who mistakenly buy it? I'm not sure I see the logic in that. :o

                                            Cheers
                                            Eddie


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                                            • 19. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                              Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                              "I used to be like that. But it is just too easy to open AE, import a sequence from Premiere Pro, do what needs to be done, and then use Dynamic Link. Once you get into the habit, trying to turn a perfectly good NLE into a Compositing program just seems silly."

                                              But Steven, if I can just put a filter on a clip in PPro and press play and see the clip play back in real-time, it seems like a lot of work to go through all of the steps to jump into AE, import the sequence, etc, etc, especially when you don't get real-time playback when working with it in AE.

                                              I can even do complex things like keying with Boris Continuum Complete right in PPro.

                                              If you can effectively and efficiently use the NLE like a compositing program, it seems silly NOT to.

                                              Now I defitinely wouldn't want to give up NLE features in my NLE just so that I can have compositing features...
                                              • 20. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                Back on topic...

                                                What the heck did Adobe do to CS3? I try to open a project with one sequence (having just a short clip in it, no filters or anything) and 8 HDV clips.

                                                It takes 3 minutes. During that time, only 1 of the 8 cores is jumping from 0% to 1% utilization and memory stays the same.

                                                So I have to ask, what the heck is PPro doing and why does it take so long?

                                                I've got another project with just imported clips, around 30. Which opens fast. It seems that the minute you try to do something in the project, it opens extremely slow.
                                                • 21. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                  Level 1
                                                  For Pete's Sake man!

                                                  I am new here and there seems to be a few guys that have their heads so far up Adobe's *** that you do not see what you are saying.

                                                  I understand Howards frustration.

                                                  You people think that everyone must go out and buy All of Adobe's Products. To assume any person must be forced to buy a program they do not want or cannot afford is plain rude and obnoxious.

                                                  We are not all professionals like some of you, some of do actually shoot weddings, like myself. Why the heck must I buy more programs than I need (although I won After Effects Already)!!?? If you are all so professional why are you on these forums instead of making features in Hollywood? Dammit I get so upset by some people.

                                                  You leave people hating Adobe and their products. I have been reading this forum for about a day now and there is a common pattern. A guy will have a problem, 2 people will complain that he posts on the forums, 3 people will tell him to get rid of his camera, 4 will say buy After Effects or go buy this plugin. It is ridiculous! You are people are insane.

                                                  Final Cut Studio is by far a better option, you buy it and it works straight out of the box, no plugins no go buy another application. I am not an Apple supporter is hater, it seems that everyday I struggle with Adobe is one day I consider moving my business to Apple and Final Cut.

                                                  Premiere Elements is for kids. I wanted a professional editng program that was able to do it all in one, Adobe seemed to offer this.

                                                  Let us think about for a minute lads. It is either PC or Mac, Mac has good points but the initial investment is quite large so let us put it aside for now. PC. What editing software is there for PC. Sony Vegas, Premiere, AVID, Edius, Avid Liquid/Pinnacle, Ulead, Movie Maker, Power Director/Producer, and various others. So what do you chose....

                                                  Vegas, just does not have it all you know
                                                  Avid Liquid, again it's a bit for beginners
                                                  Avid, wow too bg for the guy starting out,
                                                  Premiere, the best pick of the bunch,
                                                  the rest are for kids and real amateurs.

                                                  Buw wait Premiere cannot function on it's own, it needs a plugin to this and a plugin to do that, it forever needs plugins. The only thing it is good for is just SD. I want to edit HD or HDV in Premiere I must go buy Cineform, what a load of crap. I want to do basic little effects,go buy After Effects, I want to colour Grade, go buy this or that plugin.

                                                  The cost of Premiere is fairly good, but before you can use it you need to buy After Effects (for effects simple and advanced), Photoshop (for titles), Cineform (well to edit anything actually and to support formats and proper 1920 x 1080 HD 4:4:4 uncompressed), and add that all up and it costs a shitload.

                                                  So that leads us back to Final Cut Pro where it all makes sense. You buy one G5, and one Final Cut Studio and it gets the job done all in one wonder. NOBODY OUT THERE CAN ARGUE WITH THE BENEFIT OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

                                                  Now this entire post was pointless since I know everyone out there could not wait to get to the end just they could quote me and argue. You reading this did not even bother to see it from an objective point of view, I know for a fact. Whilst reading you were not listening. So this post was pointless, because nobody will STILL get it.

                                                  Disgruntled Adobe End user. I am returning CS3 back to Adobe for a refund.
                                                  • 22. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                    >We are not all professionals like some of you, some of do actually shoot weddings, like myself.

                                                    This is somewhat besides the point you were making, but I feel it's important to say that I consider the wedding videographer every bit the professional, and a part of the very market Adobe is aiming at. He should be someone who has a formal education in videography, or at least a number of years experience in the field. Preferably both.

                                                    I know software and hardware prices make it possible for ordinary folks to just buy some supplies and hang out a shingle, and in my market, you can tell that's exactly what some guys have done. They give us all a bad rep.
                                                    • 23. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                      Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                      Anyone who hates Adobe and their products just from reading the forums, without trying the products, is a shallow, narrow-minded, ignoramus.
                                                      • 24. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                        Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                                                        Jeron,

                                                        I will repeat what I said in other threads:

                                                        >If you are happy with your workflow, stick with it!

                                                        Please keep in mind that Boris is expensive, more expensive than Cineform Aspect HD. SO each to their own. You should use what works for you. My comments about the hassles of editing native really only apply to people with workflows that are having problems. No problems? Don't change. Seriously.

                                                        Not every product is right for every editor.
                                                        • 25. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                          Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                          Where did that come from Steven?

                                                          My last reply regarding anything you said, were comments on you saying that it is "silly" to try to use an NLE as a compositor.

                                                          Like I said, I find it "silly" that someone would go through extra steps to composite in another program (regardless of the codec), if they can do it quicker and easier in PPro.

                                                          It had nothing to do with using Cineform or Boris. I only used Boris as an example. You can't compare the two, they have separate functionality. Maybe color correction would be a better example. I find it "silly" to fire up AE to color correct a clip if you can do it easier and quicker in PPro.

                                                          I haven't contested your comments about the hassles of editing native in a while. I'm even recommending your precious Cineform to someone in a thread in 2.0.

                                                          In fact, I'm finding with CS3, editing native HDV is a total hassle ;)

                                                          Seriously...
                                                          • 26. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                            Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                                                            Jeron,

                                                            In post 19 you quoted my post 13. You refer to Boris. Fine. Boris and Cineform don't get along? So don't use Cineform.

                                                            Premiere Pro is not a good compositing program. Certainly not compared to After Effects. But if you are happy with native editing, and using Premiere Pro as a compositing program, then be happy.

                                                            I repeat...

                                                            >My comments about the hassles of editing native really only apply to people with workflows that are having problems. No problems? Don't change.

                                                            Trying to edit native HDV for my current project is way more trouble than it is worth. Unfortunately I have no choice. Not this time. Trying to use Premiere Pro to do things that are much faster or easier in After Effects is more trouble than it is worth.

                                                            You keep saying you want to add effects in Premiere Pro. My workflow seldom uses effects. Yours does or you would not have paid the big bucks for Boris. The little I need to do in Premiere Pro can be done with Cineform effects, or I use a real compositing program.

                                                            Perhaps since our workflows are so different, you have trouble understanding mine. So be it. We can agree to disagree. But telling everyone to avoid Cineform is wrong. Let them try it out for themselves. Sure I recommend it. Nobody purchases it based on my recommendation. They do, however, give the free trial a chance.

                                                            And remember, not everyone has a PC like yours.
                                                            • 27. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                              Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                              "In post 19 you quoted my post 13. You refer to Boris. Fine. Boris and Cineform don't get along? So don't use Cineform."

                                                              In post 19 I didn't say anything about Cineform. I used Boris as one extreme example of how you can do compositing in PPro without being "silly". Note the start of the sentence where I mention Boris, "I can even do..."

                                                              No where in your post 13 did you talk about Cineform. You are the one who brought up Cineform and put those words in my mouth with regards to Post 19 and Post 13 in Posts 24 and 26.

                                                              I understand your workflow perfectly well, in fact I thought I was warming up to it in our discussions in this thread. Or are you having problems "seeing the forest for the trees"?

                                                              Your post 13 had nothing to do with Cineform and neither did my post 19.

                                                              "If you can effectively and efficiently use the NLE like a compositing program, it seems silly NOT to."

                                                              That was my point regarding you saying it is "silly" to use an NLE as a Compositing program. I didn't put your workflow down, you were putting my workflow (and others) down.
                                                              • 28. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                                Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                                "But telling everyone to avoid Cineform is wrong."

                                                                And where do I do that? Give me a break. Many times I've stated that I can see where and how Cineform is beneficial.

                                                                In fact today, in the "Dissapointed with Cineform" thread, I recommended to jonereb that he should look into it.

                                                                http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bc46f78/56

                                                                If you are going to put words in my mouth, then I guess I think your Cineform fanaticism in telling everyone, in any thread that even mentions HDV, that they have to use Cineform in order to edit HDV, is wrong.
                                                                • 29. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                                  Level 1
                                                                  Ok guys let's discuss this:

                                                                  Let us think about for a minute lads. It is either PC or Mac, Mac has good points but the initial investment is quite large so let us put it aside for now. PC. What editing software is there for PC. Sony Vegas, Premiere, AVID, Edius, Avid Liquid/Pinnacle, Ulead, Movie Maker, Power Director/Producer, and various others. So what do you chose....

                                                                  Vegas, just does not have it all you know
                                                                  Avid Liquid, again it's a bit for beginners
                                                                  Avid, wow too bg for the guy starting out,
                                                                  Premiere, the best pick of the bunch,
                                                                  the rest are for kids and real amateurs.

                                                                  Buw wait Premiere cannot function on it's own, it needs a plugin to this and a plugin to do that, it forever needs plugins. The only thing it is good for is just SD. I want to edit HD or HDV in Premiere I must go buy Cineform, what a load of crap. I want to do basic little effects,go buy After Effects, I want to colour Grade, go buy this or that plugin.

                                                                  The cost of Premiere is fairly good, but before you can use it you need to buy After Effects (for effects simple and advanced), Photoshop (for titles), Cineform (well to edit anything actually and to support formats and proper 1920 x 1080 HD 4:4:4 uncompressed), and add that all up and it costs a shitload.

                                                                  So that leads us back to Final Cut Pro where it all makes sense. You buy one G5, and one Final Cut Studio and it gets the job done all in one wonder.

                                                                  Please can somebody tell me that this is not true. You all seem to defend Adobe.
                                                                  • 30. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                                    Level 1
                                                                    > that they have to use Cineform in order to edit HDV, is wrong.

                                                                    If Cineform was $39 then it would be fine. :-)
                                                                    • 31. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                                      Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                                                                      Go buy a Mac. And you will see that some of the former FCP guys are looking to Premiere Pro for Dynamic link with After Effects and to get Encore.

                                                                      There is already a beta of the Cineform codec for the Mac. It will be officially released soon. Do you really think a company would invest that much time and money if they didn't think there was a market for Cineform on a Mac?

                                                                      Perhaps FCP with Cineform will be superior to what exists now. I assume so, but it is up to the Mac world to make that decision.

                                                                      Listen, it is up to you. Try it out and see what you like. Perhaps native HDV is your thing. If not, it is one heck of a lot cheaper to buy Cineform products than to go out and replace all of your software and learn a new platform. Perhaps a Mac would be better for you. If so, then switch. But make sure you are switching for well informed reasons.
                                                                      • 32. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                                        Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                                        To bring this thread a bit more back on topic...

                                                                        I got rid of all of the clips that I captured with CS3 and replaced them with the same clips captured in Vegas.

                                                                        The project now opens in less than a minute, whereas the same exact project with the CS3 captured clips takes over 3 minutes.

                                                                        I've been editing for over 5 hours straight and haven't had any problems. I haven't seen the audio drop out problem since I got rid of the CS3 clips.
                                                                        • 33. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                                          Level 1
                                                                          > I've been editing for over 5 hours straight and haven't had any problems. I haven't seen the audio drop out problem since I got rid of the CS3 clips.

                                                                          That is both good and bad. Good since it shows PPRO can handle HDV, bad since it shows a flaw in the way Premiere captures HDV.

                                                                          You see? Vegas is good, that is probably why I have had a good experience so far... :-)
                                                                          • 34. Re: Abnormally Long HDV Project Load Time with CS3
                                                                            neil wilkes Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                                            Mac Native HDV from FCP is
                                                                            i not cross-platform.
                                                                            Be very careful.
                                                                            Oh - I woirk with Mac users all the time, and the one constant from them all are the crashing G5 complaints. Daily, it seems.