8 Replies Latest reply on Jan 7, 2009 8:49 PM by OsakaWebbie

    Marker frustration

    OsakaWebbie Level 1
      I'm setting a bunch of stuff to music, so one of the first things I do is put the music on the timeline and then play it while hitting the * key on beats I care about, where I think clip transitions might go, which adds a sequence marker at that spot. For some reason, in CS3 the response is a bit slower than in PPro 1.0, so I have to go back through and adjust each marker back about 2 frames (I used to rarely be off by more than a frame one way or the other, but now my markers are consistently late). Okay, that's only a minor annoyance. But recently I had a situation where after I laid down the markers and then adjusted them, I realized that there was about a second of the audio track at the beginning that I didn't want. Hmm... group move all sequence markers? Or chop off the beginning of the sequence and have the markers as well as the clips move left? Apparently neither is possible. (If I'm wrong, please tell me how, because right now I have one song that has a second of dead space at the beginning.)

      So on the next song, I thought I'd be clever and use clip markers on the audio clip instead of sequence markers. I set up a keyboard shortcut for that, played my music, and set the markers. But when I went back through and tried to adjust them, they wouldn't move. The documentation says I have to do it in the source monitor, and that "Dragging a marker in the Source or Program Monitor's time ruler moves the corresponding marker icon in the Timeline panel." So I dragged the clip from the timeline to the source monitor, and adjusted my markers (it's not yet comfortable for me to do in the source monitor, but I could get used to it). But contrary to what the above quote says, I don't see any change on the timeline. I moved each marker (about 15 of them) 1-3 frames to the left to line up with visible cues in the waveform, and also added one marker. Neither the new marker nor the adjustments I made are reflected in the clip as seen on the timeline. After several attempts to just click on the two windows alternately, hoping something would refresh, I next tried Alt-Dragging from the source monitor back onto my clip in the timeline. The result? The markers in the timeline still didn't update, and the audio clip disappeared from the source monitor, revealing the most recent video clip I had in there before I started this (that's weird - I didn't know the source monitor even had a memory)! I did an undo, which put the audio clip back in the source monitor, but the markers are back to where they were when I started, in spite of the fact that the History lists my "Add Marker" and my many "Set Marker Time" actions. It would appear that I just lost all my work. What am I doing wrong?
        • 1. Re: Marker frustration
          OsakaWebbie Level 1
          No ideas on this? Okay, let me ask a related question - I'm sure there are others out there who take a piece of music (whether for a music video or just a video collage set to a 2-minute SmartSound composition) and set short video clips to it, timing the transitions to beats in the music. Those of you who do that: Do you use markers in order to have something handy to snap the clips to, and if so, do you use sequence markers or clip markers?
          • 2. Re: Marker frustration
            Jim_Simon Level 8
            After you make the changes in the Source monitor, drag the clip back down to the sequence to overwrite the original. It doesn't 'refresh' as you work, but the changes will show up when you drag the clip down.
            • 3. Re: Marker frustration
              OsakaWebbie Level 1
              I did that, but the markers didn't change (and the clip disappeared from the Source monitor - that's when I got really frustrated and went back to my old habit of using sequence markers). I was holding Alt down when I did it so that it would keep some small volume edits I had made to the start and end of the clip - would that cause it not to accept the changes or something?
              • 4. Re: Marker frustration
                Jim_Simon Level 8
                >I did that

                Did what specifically? Describe the exact steps.
                • 5. Re: Marker frustration
                  OsakaWebbie Level 1
                  Sorry to be unclear. I did the following:
                  1. Dragged the clip from the timeline to the source monitor

                  2. Made my edits in the source monitor

                  3. Noticed what you already knew, that the changes don't show on the timeline as they are made

                  4. I held down the Alt key while dragging the clip back from the source monitor to the clip on the timeline (that's the "I did that" I was referring to)

                  But when I did step #4, it was as if I peeled the clip off the source monitor and threw it away, because after I dragged it onto the timeline, the source monitor no longer contained my audio clip with the edited markers, but instead revealed the previous video clip I had had there (I've never seen that happen before - is it because it was just an audio clip?). And there was no change in the markers on the timeline.

                  At the time I was hoping that a quick response on the forum would reveal a way to retrieve my changes (I could see them in the history pane, but they didn't appear anywhere in my workarea), but since then I have closed and restarted PPro, so my changes are probably gone. At this point I just want to know what workflow I should use in the future. The next song I had to do, I went back to using sequence markers as I had done for years, even though they have their own problems (namely, if I need to move my audio a little bit on the timeline, sequence markers become out of alignment).
                  • 6. Re: Marker frustration
                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                    Why the Alt key? Just drag to the timeline and overwrite the original.
                    • 7. Re: Marker frustration
                      OsakaWebbie Level 1
                      > Why the Alt key? Just drag to the timeline and overwrite the original.

                      Because without the Alt key, it would overwrite volume keyframes in the one already on the timeline.

                      I tried it again, and this time it's acting even stranger. When I try to "zoom in" in the source monitor (drag the ends of the gray bar inward) it won't go past a certain point - the farthest it goes still shows about 20 seconds of audio in the visible area, not nearly magnified enough to work with two frame variances in the markers. When I try to compress the gray bar more than that, the mouse shakes but the bar doesn't move. I know that particular functionality worked before, because I was able to see the waveform clearly and make single-frame adjustments of the markers.

                      But here's another surprise: now, at least at the moment, it's doing what you said it wouldn't do (and I don't think it was doing before) - when I click in random spots and add markers (something very visual), the markers are immediately appearing in the timeline (without dragging it back at all)! That's the behavior the Help seemed to indicate that it would do (because it never mentioned the need to drag anything back). Now, if only I could get the source monitor to magnify enough for me to do the edits I want instead of junk ones just for testing...
                      • 8. Re: Marker frustration
                        OsakaWebbie Level 1
                        Ah, I just figured something out: If I have freshly dragged the clip to the source monitor and then kept my mouse out of the area of the waveform itself, but only work down in the area below that, where the gray bar, blue CTI icon, and triangular marker icons are, changes I make immediately show up on the timeline. But if I accidently click on the waveform itself (a habit I have from working in Audition), I already knew that it causes the magnification to immediately go to fully zoomed out (showing the whole song), but what I just now figured out is that the link to the timeline is somehow broken - after that, marker edits are not reflected in the timeline. When I did this the first time, I accidentally clicked on the waveform many times - having to zoom back in to resume editing was frustrating, but I thought the only effect was the zoom.

                        Can someone tell me what is actually happening when I click on an audio waveform in the source monitor for a clip that was dragged from the timeline? It clearly is doing something fundamental about what clip is considered in the source or not, and the restoration to full-wave view is just a side effect.

                        And I still can't zoom in very far at the moment. Perhaps it's a memory issue or something - this project file is getting very complex (lots of titles, assets, and effects - there are 12 music videos in it).