13 Replies Latest reply on Jan 21, 2009 11:10 PM by Dan Isaacs

    720p 15 fps -> BD

    (C._David_Young) Level 1
      I have a 720p project (Desktop 15 fps 720p custom settings) using footage from my little Canon SD950 ELPH camera. This is 720p at 15 fps. The original footage looks good. In the project settings I am using Video for Windows with Uncopressed UYVY 422 8 bit. On the timeline I can already see jaggies along sharp edges that are not on the original footage. They also show up in the AME exported file. Is there a way to avoid this degradation even before I output via AME?

      Then once in AME the best BD setting seems to be H264 Blu-ray 720p with 59.94 fps. Then each frame should be duplicated 4 times. I have frame blending turned off on all footage to avoid the ghosting that otherwise occurs when Premiere converts to the higher frame rates. Do these settings seem to be right for what I am trying to do?

      In summary, the AME H.264 footage looks good except for the jaggies. I don't understand where they are coming from since the native footage is 720p and the project and export settings are also 720p.
        • 1. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
          (C._David_Young) Level 1
          Ok, the actual resolution of the footage is 1024x768. I am now thinking that the conversion to 720 vertical lines of resolution from 768 might be causing the jaggies. I will try using an AviSynth script or something to remove the extra lines.
          • 2. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
            (C._David_Young) Level 1
            After further study it appears that Premiere has already cropped off the extra 48 lines. Thus, I am still at a loss as to where the jaggies are coming from. Any help would be appreciated.
            • 3. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
              Ruud Blauw Level 1
              >it appears that Premiere has already cropped off the extra 48 lines.

              Cropped 48 lines or compressed 768 to 720 lines? If it is the latter that could be what is causing the jaggies.
              • 4. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                (C._David_Young) Level 1
                It appears that they are cropped. I compared the program monitor (and exported AME footage) to the original footage and you can tell that the top and bottom have been cropped a little. It looks like Premiere is trying to convert 768p to 720p by dropping the excess lines of resolution but somehow the jaggies appear. I think I will experiment with running a clip through AviSynth and use the Crop function to convert it to 720p before importing it into Premiere to see if the jaggies persist.
                • 5. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                  Dan Isaacs Level 2
                  Interesting... Let us know how it goes. What is the PAR of this 1024 x 768 footage?
                  • 6. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                    (C._David_Young) Level 1
                    The PAR is 1. Thanks for the support, Dan!

                    I finally got rid of the jaggies by exporting to Mpeg Blu-ray instead of H.264 Blu-ray. This is the first time that I have noticed this kind of problem with H.264. I have encoded 720p before and did not notice this.
                    • 7. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                      (C._David_Young) Level 1
                      After further investigation, I found the only way to get rid of the jaggies was to increase the bit rate of the Mpeg Blu-ray to 35 Mbps max, 30 Mbps target. Strangely enough, when I did the same thing with H.264 Blu-ray it did not help the jaggies. Also, I found that 24 fps seemed to be the most pleasing to the eye. Does anyone know of a downside to using Mpeg Blu-ray instead of H.264 Blu-ray?
                      • 8. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                        Dan Isaacs Level 2
                        > Does anyone know of a downside to using Mpeg Blu-ray instead of H.264 Blu-ray?

                        No, but H.264 is supposed to be more efficient (quality vs. data rate)

                        Perhaps you could try pre-processing the footage in AviSynth... something like:

                        AviSource("SD950.avi")
                        GaussResize(960,720, p=50) # increase 'p' for more sharpness
                        ChangeFPS(30) # or use ChangeFPS(30000, 1001) for 29.97 fps

                        I get the feeling (even though your seeing a difference when using MPEG2 vs. H.264) that Premiere is doing something funky internally before the video hits the target codec. (???)
                        • 9. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                          (C._David_Young) Level 1
                          Despite what I said previously, the 24 fps was not suitable. The conversion from 15 fps to 24 fps using ChangeFPS caused frequent tearing in the frames. What I ended up using was 60 fps instead (while exporting from the timeline using the Debugmode Frameserver):

                          AviSource("SD950.avi")
                          ChangeFPS(60000, 1001)

                          I saved this from VirtualDub as an uncompressed avi (I can't get Huffyuv to work with my Vista 64!) and imported this back into Premiere. Then I was able to encode at 59.94 without Premiere doing frame blending.

                          Dan, I am not sure why you were suggesting that I use GaussResize. What was its purpose?
                          • 10. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                            Dan Isaacs Level 2
                            I'm not sure now :) I *think* I was thinking that you could:

                            1.) pre-scale 1024x768 -> 960x720
                            2.) edit in custom desktop mode @ 960x720
                            3.) export using DebugMode @ 960x720, 15 fps
                            4.) post-process using

                            AviSource("signpost.avi")
                            ChangeFPS(60000, 1001)

                            ???
                            • 11. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                              (C._David_Young) Level 1
                              Oh, I see that you were trying to help me convert to 4:3. No problem. I did everything 16:9 (custom desktop 1280x720 15 fps progressive square pixels), mixing the 4:3 video (leaving pillars on the side) with still photos making use of the 16:9 full screen. It turned out quite nice and you really don't notice that the video is just 4:3.

                              This turned out so well that I started looking for a small hidef video camera that might do 15 or 30 fps progressive with little or no compression, or at least do as well as HDV as far as motion artifacts goes. Alas, it appears that the only thing available is AVCHD and the motion artifacts are worse than HDV. I guess I will just have to stick to my FX1 for now for serious stuff and my little SD950 for times that I can't carry the FX1. Seems like video is always a compromise!
                              • 12. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                                (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                BTW, I could not have done this without your AviSynth techniques for massaging things for DVD and BD. The results from using a pure Premiere CS3 workflow would have been far from optimal. In particular, the inability to turn off the frame blending during encoding while converting from 15 fps to 30 fps (for DVD) and 60 fps (for BD)was frustrating. And 24 fps was even worse. Anyway, thanks so much for this added flexibility! Now if we could just get the FrameServer to work for CS4...
                                • 13. Re: 720p 15 fps -> BD
                                  Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                  > Now if we could just get the FrameServer to work for CS4

                                  Unfortunately, it will not work and there is no replacement. However, there is a new AviSynth .avs Import Plugin for CS4:

                                  http://www.animemusicvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=92453&p=1209148&hilit=avisynth# p1209148

                                  (I haven't tried it yet)