16 Replies Latest reply on Jan 16, 2009 10:33 AM by Jim_Simon

    Preserving tape name and media start/end

    OsakaWebbie Level 1
      I shoot lots of tapes of random footage to get short general-purpose clips for use later. Years ago when I started, I would preview in the capture window via device control, carefully set log in/out points, and let batch capture make all my little clips. Then I learned how hard that is on my camera's heads, so I got Scenalizer Live and used a new workflow - I captured my whole tape, and then sliced, trimmed, and renamed the "keeper" clips. But since most of my clips don't need audio and SCLive doesn't know how to make a video-only AVI, most recently I've gone back to using PPro for the slice and rename operation, putting the captured video on the timeline, slicing and dicing, and then "exporting to movie" the good pieces to make new AVIs, with only video and with the filenames I want. (Yes, I know there are purists out there who would be concerned about generational loss of methods 2 and 3, but in DV-AVI I just can't see how any mere mortal could tell the difference.)

      But just now I discovered that only my first method preserved the information of where the clip originally came from, i.e. the Tape Name, Media Start, and Media End. All the rest lost that information when I trimmed the clips in either SCLive or PPro. Argh!

      These clips are a lost cause, but for the future, is there a better workflow, one that will preserve both the clip information and my tape heads?
        • 1. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          The only way I know of to keep that metadata is to capture through Premiere. You could capture an entire tape, sans audio, using Scene Detect, then go through each clip and add the appropriate comments and such in the bin columns.
          • 2. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
            OsakaWebbie Level 1
            If after capturing in that way some (in my case, usually all) of the clips need to be trimmed further for long term storage (I don't want to keep the shaky parts at the beginning and the end, and often in the middle I have moved the camera from one view to another without stopping recording), is there any way I can do that without losing the metadata?

            Also, you say "add the appropriate comments and such in the bin columns", but that doesn't actually store the comment in the file's metadata, does it? These types of clips will be captured long before they are actually used - I want to put the metadata in and have it stay with the file, not just with the project that was used to capture the clips. Can I do that somehow?
            • 3. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              >is there any way I can do that without losing the metadata?

              Not that I'm aware of.

              >Can I do that somehow?

              Again, not that I'm aware of. It may be better for you to add this type of information with Bridge. The data won't show up in Premiere, but Bridge really is designed for this type of extra-project media organization.
              • 4. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                OsakaWebbie Level 1
                > The data won't show up in Premiere...

                Yeah, I noticed that when I was experimenting with Bridge earlier this morning. So if it's added in Bridge, it's not really in the file, but just in some Bridge database or something? If I add, for example, some text to the "Description" metadata attribute using Bridge and it really is stored as metadata in the file, I don't understand why Premiere would not show it in the Description column. But indeed it doesn't (I tested both Description and Scene, and indeed, neither worked), so either: (a) it's not really stored in the file, (b) there are two types of descriptions (and of other attributes that have the same name), or (c) I'm really confused.
                • 5. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  My guess is B. I believe the data is stored in the file, it's just that Premiere has yet to be programmed to read it. (That is just a guess, though.)
                  • 6. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                    Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                    Jim, I think you are correct about it being stored in the individual file. (A quick test shows that my test avi file has a new modified date when I added a keyword to it.) However, I do not think that the Premiere information (e.g. description in the bin columns) is stored in the file. (Add something to the description column in the project bin, and the avi file date does not change. It is saved with the prproj xml file.)

                    The link below makes the point that xmp is what photoshop, illustrator, etc are based on. It may not be a simple matter for Premiere to access this information.

                    http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Bridge/3.0/WSF23FB426-0A09-46de-91C8-BDB64CF378FA.html
                    • 7. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      Simple or complex, it is something that needs to be done by Adobe, preferably sooner rather than later. Premiere needs to be able to see the metadata entered from Bridge, and Bride needs to be able to read the metadata entered into the bin columns in Premiere. This is basic functionality in my view, and really should have been implemented in the first suite version that included Bridge.
                      • 8. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                        SFL46 Level 3
                        For still images, bridge creates an XML file with the metadata if it is unable to write the data back to the original file due to format restrictions.

                        I would suspect that for video, one wouldn't want to use up a lot of file space attaching metadata to each frame. Placing metadata at the beginning of the tape doesn't help, as we cut the "tape" as we edit--only the first clip would have the metdata?????
                        • 9. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                          Video files are quite large by their nature. Metadata would be an insignificant chunk of that total size. It really would be best if both Bridge and Premiere wrote such data to the file directly, and each could read the other's.
                          • 10. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                            OsakaWebbie Level 1
                            I agree - the metadata doesn't need to be repeated for every frame - just once for the clip.

                            If the clip gets chopped up in PPro (or SCLive or whatever program), it doesn't seem like it should be that hard for the software to just do the math - if I have a two-minute NTSC clip that was originally captured from timecode 12:00:00 to 13:59:29, and I chop it into a 30 sec. clip and a 90 second clip (silly simple example), the resulting two clips should still preserve the Tape Name and other info, and the start/end times should be 12:00:00-12:29:29 and 12:30:00-13:59:29. But instead both PPro and SCLive delete the Tape Name, and the start times of the resaved clips are all zero. Naturally if what is on the timeline when I save is a composite of multiple clips it's a different story, but if the only editing has been to simply put the clip on the timeline and adjust the end points and/or cut with the razor tool, it would be nice if the capture data was preserved.
                            • 11. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                              >the metadata doesn't need to be repeated for every frame - just once for the clip.

                              I actually disagree with that one. I feel it's best if at least timecode data is written for every single frame. I've seen issues caused by being written only to the header.
                              • 12. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                                the_wine_snob Level 9
                                "Premiere needs to be able to see the metadata entered from Bridge, and
                                b Bride
                                [Bold for emphasis] needs to be able to read the metadata entered into the bin columns in Premiere."

                                Calling Dr Sigmund Frued - Dr Frued, please see Jim Simon.

                                Jim, I think that you have been working too hard lately. We KNOW that you meant to type "Bridge," but your work is getting in the way. [Grin]

                                Hunt

                                PS I do agree with you.
                                • 13. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                                  OsakaWebbie Level 1
                                  If we're catching each other's typos - Bill, yours isn't as amusing as Jim's, but it's Fr eud, not Fr ued. But we're digressing...

                                  P.S. We all agree, so is someone willing to put in the feature request to Adobe, or whatever needs to happen to get it farther than this forum? I don't have CS4, but I assume that someone has ensured that the problem still exists there, too?
                                  • 14. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                    http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform
                                    • 15. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                                      OsakaWebbie Level 1
                                      I guess you're saying I should do it, but I don't think I know enough of the technical details, and since it would be in an upgrade to CS4 (CS5 or whatever they call it next) I figured it also should be someone who owns and uses CS4.
                                      • 16. Re: Preserving tape name and media start/end
                                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                                        I just copied and pasted all but the first sentence of my own post 7 into the feature request form. I think it gets the point across.