14 Replies Latest reply on Jan 21, 2009 11:31 PM by Dan Isaacs

    Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?

      Hello,

      I am working on a project that will combine 24p footage and 60i footage. What would be the best way to go about combining these two. It's for a short that is shot similar to Cloverfield. I want to use 60i footage for the hand held footage shoot by the actors who are capturing their experience. I'd prefer to have that footage shot on 24p as well and degrade the quality in post, but I don't want to run the risk of them dropping my DVX100a and destroying it. I don't have any experience with 60i, or combining two kinds of footage, so advice is much appreciated!

      Thanks!
        • 1. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          If you haven't shot yet, it might be easiest to shoot in standard 24p (not 24pA), which normally gets edited in a standard 30i (same as 60i) preset anyway. This way, the 24p footage will have a 'film look' and the 30i footage will look like regular video, so you get the desired contrast between looks and can edit everything in the same sequence.
          • 2. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
            Level 1
            OH kewl! I didn't realize it would be that simple Jim. Thanks!!!!

            I haven't shot it yet, so this will do nicely. So, it's ok to create a 24p project and import 30i footage that was captured on a 30i project, or can I capture the 30i footage from the 24p project as well?

            Who uses 60i, is that the UK and 30i is the US?

            Thanks
            • 3. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              Actually, you'll create a normal 30i project and edit everything in that. You won't be using a 24p project at all, which is for the 24pA mode on the DVX.
              • 4. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                Jim_Simon Level 8
                >Who uses 60i, is that the UK and 30i is the US?

                A lot of people who should know better do this. The correct long form format is vertical resolution, followed by the interlaced/progressive designation, then a slash, then the frame rate. So DV long form would be 480i/30. The film modes in long form would be 480p/24.

                The short form leaves the resolution out of it, and moves the i/p designation after the frame rate - hence we get 24p, or 30i. 60i is the same as 30i, but it incorrectly lists the field rate, rather then the proper frame rate.
                • 5. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                  Level 1
                  Woah, all this time I've been editing my 24p footage on a 24pa timeline. I've always felt that my footage looking a bit 'off', as if it was one frame off or something, yet people with untrained eyes say it looks fine. I wonder if this is the source of the problem.

                  Thanks guys!!!!
                  • 6. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                    I can only report what I've read from others on this front (including DV Guru Barry Green, as well as Canon regarding their cameras), as I don't have a DVX myself.

                    The 24p mode is for normal sequences, the 24pA mode is for 24p sequences. The difference being that while both have pulldown applied to make the 24p captures 30i for DV tape, only the 24pA mode has pulldown that can be properly removed. The 24p mode has normal pulldown meant to be left in while editing and viewing as 30i.
                    • 7. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                      >The short form leaves the resolution out of it, and moves the i/p designation after the frame rate - hence we get 24p, or 30i. 60i is the same as 30i, but it incorrectly lists the field rate, rather then the proper frame rate.

                      The problem is the camera manufacturers. Some (many?) have 30p-over-60i modes that are different than the so-called 60i (30i) mode.

                      They should be forced to watch old Petticoat Junction episodes until their eyes fall out for causing this confusion. One trip around the 'net will show you just how widespread this confusion is.

                      -Jeff
                      • 8. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                        >Some (many?) have 30p-over-60i modes that are different than the so-called 60i (30i) mode.

                        It would still be called 30p, though. It's just that both DV fields are now taken from the same time instance.

                        And I agree. Camera manufacturers share a lot of the blame. Had me confused as hell when I first heard of 720p/60. I mean, who ever heard of a 60 fps standard? Previously it was either 30 or 24. I thought for sure it was a mislabeled 60i thing.
                        • 9. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                          Dan Isaacs Level 2
                          > Camera manufacturers share a lot of the blame

                          No... not at all.

                          "60i" is 60Hz, interlaced. There is no more concise nor accurate way to put it. It is neither frames nor fields, but Hz cycles -- representing the temporal resolution of the format.
                          • 10. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                            Concise or accurate aren't the issues, though. Conformity and confusion are. From a 'filmmakers' viewpoint, the "frame rate" only is the proper listing (even though technically there aren't frames for interlaced media.)
                            • 11. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                              Level 1
                              Hey guys,

                              I made a mistake earlier. I'm shooting 24pa. Sorry about that. I've been shooting 24pa in hopes of converting one of my projects to film one day, if the chance ever occurs.

                              This project will not be converted to film. Should I abandon the 24pa footage for 24p?

                              Sorry for the confusion and thank you for the wonderful advice!
                              • 12. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                You can still use 24pA footage in a 30i sequence, the required pulldown is already there so technically there's no problem.

                                The difference is mainly one of looks. Seems when working in a normal 30i sequence, most people prefer the look of 24p over 24pA, finding the 24pA a bit too stuttery.

                                If it were my project, I'd probably shoot in 24p and 30i, combining both in the same sequence. One will have the film look, one will have the video look. Save the 24pA for when you can edit the whole thing in a 24p sequence.
                                • 13. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                                  (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                  I have been reading about some of the AVCHD cameras that are supposedly 30p but I have read reviews that they are not true 30p but really 60i rendered to 30p. Does this mean that it is really shooting 60 interlaced fields and converting to 30p by combining the fields? In which case you would still end up with combing under movement unless they do a good job of deinterlacing.
                                  • 14. Re: Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?
                                    Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                    > that they are not true 30p but really 60i rendered to 30p

                                    Well, I certainly can't speak for all of these cameras, but I have played around with some of this "30p over 60i" footage -- but most of this was from HDV cameras, not AVCHD. Avoid if you can. Basically, the luma is progressive and the chroma is interlaced.

                                    I have a function (it's actually part of the dv2film and hd2sd functions) that will deinterlace only the chroma, so can recover greatly true progressive output... but this is an unmitigated a pain in the *** to deal with all the time, and you certainly lose at least a little chroma resolution. Avoid :)