11 Replies Latest reply on Feb 15, 2009 7:45 AM by bill66man

    TIMECODE BLUES!

      I posted this in the VideoLounge too, but maybe it belongs more (or will get more views) here. Plus posting the issue in he Video Lounge got me all worked up again about how annoying it is.

      repost:

      I've edited on EDIT and Avid, anyone else think adobes treatment of timecode is rediculous?

      I can't make a 'windowdub' of a timeline for a producer to watch, unless (I've found a way to trick it...) I lay a blank title track and drag it across the whole job and apply the video 'timecode generate' effect to the blank title clip. Even then adobe (ON MY 12 GIG RAM MATROX AXIO LE SYSTEM) likes to render the timecode, it doesnt come off cleanly and can skip numbers and go slowly when your quickly shuttling the CTI around on the timeline. On all the edit and avid software, 'timeline timecode' or 'source timecode' even BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY were applied with a checking of a checkbox in the preferences dialogue box for review veiwing/editing of a piece!

      What the devil was adobe thinking! Timecode is the MOST important thing for an editor, not the fancy effect (which my system does ALL of in real time - even when pulling 10 'picture in picture' Matrox 3D DVE effected video streams together WITH titles each - but it wont easily handle time code!) Maybe to many 'home video editors' today don't have need of timeline timecode anymore...but for those of us who work with producers, how are we quickly and efficiently supposed to communicate positions of edits to be made on the job!

      The other thing is...

      I have in the past, needed to replace a piece of an audio track of a 'linked togther' clip. Or because of a J-cut, I have lost the 'link' between my video and audio tracks (you drag one out, the other doesnt link and follow intuitively).

      This has lead to extreme problems on my end, because, I try to drag my video clip into my source viewer, mark down the timecoded ins and outs, and then I wil drag the audio from the bin (because in the cource viewer with a clip off the timeline, you can only shuttle between the ins and outs of the TIMELINE clip, not the margin of whats in teh bin) line up the time codes from what i had on my video, in-and-out mark it and drag the audio down to the timeline...THEY DONT MATCH UP!!!

      ^(this might be hard to understand, its the best I can describe it, if you have tried something similar OR worked in - especially old autodesk EDIT - you understand getting the time code from the source viewer and matching up audio from the the bins to the video, etc...Man I miss old Edit 6.0 alot!)

      In EDIT and Avid, BOTH of the video and audio tracks CLEARLY were marked with their OWN timecodes, so you cuold play with them separately and make SURE they were still lined up. E.G. inserting B-Roll in the video track, and on the othr side of the B-Roll on the video and audio tracks, time code numbers appear next to timeline clip Picons, so you can make sure the numbers match!

      Seriously, do editors design the software or just computer programmers!

      I miss the days of Avid and Edit. Not that I'm complaining, my AXIO LE system performs absolutely flawlessly and exTREMELY fast with my adobe software!

      Awaiting the new Matrox Axio LE drivers for the end of feruary to install ProdPrem CS4, exicted!

      If anyone can let me know easy ways to cure my timecode blues - lets hear it!!!

      I could probably stripe timecode onto a VHS (usually the clunky old format we use for internal review) with my old Panasonic 7510 and digi processor unit...but thats so much work for a windowdub!
        • 1. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          I'm not understanding your timecode issue. Maybe it's done differently that with other programs, but it works fine for me.

          Have to admit, I'm not quite understanding the second issue either.
          • 2. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
            Level 1
            Windowdubs are something I'm asked to create alot at my workplace, so the producer can go mull it over and give get back to me with a 'paper edit' using visible timecode (hour:min:sec:frame) that runs along the bottom of the whole pice. I cut trim insert etc...according to the generated running timecode on my VHS windowdub...Adobe doesnt easily place 'timeline timecode' over a while timeline (save for my work around), it can only place the effect on a clip to teh best of my knowledge.

            It got really annoying before I found my work-around to place the timecode effect on everyclip and then WRITE IN the numbers corrsponding to the time on my timeline hashmarks, unless I'm completely attacking trying to turn on 'timeline timecode' the wrong way...

            To clarify the second issue:

            Imagine you place PART of a clip (the center few seconds of the total captured asset) on a timeline. Now after editing things, you come back to it and want to break out the stereo track to mono and fine tune the audio.

            You go to the clip in the bin, break out to mono, and bring your tracks over to the video clip (delete the old stereo audio track laying there). The WHOLE clips audio come out of the bin in mono fashion. Good luck trying to trim down and line up the new whole-clip mono tracks with your video excerpt, because the timecodes of the video and audio tracks, when placed in your source viewer (which tells you time codes of clip ins and outs), will NOT line up. Try it. Maybe I have a defective software suite!

            For instance if the video excerpt SOURCE time code is 01:02:30:00 to 01:02:45:00 (which you write down as reference on a sticky note in front of you!) and the whole captured clip in the bin is actually 01:02:00:00 to 01:03:00:00 it SHOULD be easy to replace the audio without replacing the video track.

            So you go to break out the audio from the bin clip place the mono audio clips in the source viewer, and cycle through the "toggle take audio and video" button on the source viewer until you ONLY have the audio showing (signified by waveform in the viewer instead of black or video). Find 01:02:30:00 and mark an in on that audio track, now do the same for the outs 01:02:45:00, now bring the mono tracks down to the timeline and 'snap' inline with the corresponding video excerpt. Do your audio and video line up?

            Better yet dont delete the old stereo track, and play the stereo and mono alongside, hear the ~5 second +/- vacinity delay?

            On edit and Avid, in the corners of the clips on the timeline (both ends a.k.a. head/tail) little numbers for BOTH source and timeline timecode were written, so if you ever had to replace audio (or recapture audio only and replace audio - more likely if you captured with bad levels!) you could EASILY replace the audio!

            Tell me for years on CS3 here I've been donig things wrong! Or is my software messed up?!?!

            If you've never had the need to be concerned with timecode (home editing/weddings etc...) I can understand, but when making documentaries or working with a producer selecting clips its rediculous!
            • 3. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              >it can only place the effect on a clip

              That is the correct way to do it, yes.

              >unless I'm completely attacking trying to turn on 'timeline timecode' the wrong way...

              You really are. Just create a transparent clip, add that to the top video layer and put the timecode effect on that.

              >You go to the clip in the bin, break out to mono

              Actually, I just duplicate the audio portion and apply the Fill Left/Right effects. Your method works better before you edit, not after.

              >Tell me for years on CS3 here I've been donig things wrong!

              Well, not wrong, per se. But definitely the hard way.
              • 4. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                Level 1
                I've never used fill left and fill right! I will begin doing right away! Never fancied myself an audio editor so I generally stay away from the effects for audio (transitions I use plenty thought).

                Thank you so much!

                Oh and I do do the transparent clip thing, but...still it begs the question why did I haev to figure that out? Isn't this a film editing program! Every producer I've worked with has worked with me through paper edits and windowdubs! In fact protocol where I'm at is to immediately upon recieving media from the field, run off a VHS from the deck through the super out, so it's got printed souce time code for the producer to select from. Windowdubbing is the exact same, I run off the rough cut from what the poducer compiles, obviously and it's like round two of the same thing.

                Everyone I know works this way, does adobe consult with serious production houses at all? I just found that really annoying (not a big deal) that adobe is more of a 'computer program' than a 'edit program' in that sense...Timecode is so important to the working broadcast and production house that adobe should NOT make users search for a creative roundabout way to proceed with even the most basic communication to and from an editors producer!

                Thanks again Jim!

                Jett
                • 5. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  >it begs the question why did I haev to figure that out?

                  Not to be rude but, maybe because you didn't read the manual?

                  >Isn't this a film editing program!

                  Well...not really. Premiere is definitely centered more around video than film editing.

                  But I'm still not quite understanding your rant about timecode. I mean I use it all the time in my own reviews. Works great when you know how to use it. (But then that same can be said for a lot of things.)
                  • 6. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                    the_wine_snob Level 9
                    JousmaJett,

                    I do similar to provide a person, who does not use an NLE (especially Premiere), to allow them to give me an edit script. In my case, I am interested in imprinting only a running TimeCode of my Timeline, and do not care about any TimeCode from the original tapes.

                    I Export my Timeline and bring it into AfterEffects. There, I add the TimeCode Effect (more robust, than the same Effect in Premiere), and Export to burn a DVD. If one has the Production Studio suite, you can use Dynamic Link to move these around between programs and save one Render/Export/Import step.

                    Client sits with the DVD in player and makes notes of the TimeCode, while they Pause/Play, writing down instructions. These notes come back to me. As my PP Timeline has not been altered at all, I do not have to remove any Effects in the Clips, or anywhere else. I just advance to the TimeCode and make the edit. The Composition in AE is basically a "throw away," as I would do that (through DL) all over again, should the client need to do more editing along the way.

                    If I did not have AE (and DL between PP & AE), I would leave my editing Timeline intact, and Export to DV-AVI, which would be Imported into a new PP Project as one Clip. There, I would add the TimeCode Effect to the entire "movie," and output to Encore for a DVD for the client. That new Project would become my throw away.

                    If you add the TimeCode Effect to the individual Clips on your edit Timeline, you'll then need to go back and toggle these off, or delete them later. I like leaving my real Timeline untouched and work with an Exported copy for this remote editing process. It saves my forgetting to toggle off an Effect that I will not want in the final version. I also think that an Export is easier than doing a Save_As_a_Copy, and working from it. May be quicker (only one Export) to it that way, but only you can judge that.

                    Hunt

                    PS AE's version of TimeCode Effect allows a lot more flexibility with color of display, font, etc.
                    • 7. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      >(more robust, than the same Effect in Premiere)

                      Curious. Expand, please?
                      • 8. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                        the_wine_snob Level 9
                        Jim,

                        The TimeCode Effect in PP (up through CS2 - do not know if it's changed with later), is limited as to color, font, etc. In AE, you can control much more. Maybe CS3 & CS4 now have the same control, as AE does. If so, that would simplify my particular workflow and keep AE out of the mix.

                        Hunt
                        • 9. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                          OK. That's more 'fluff' than real functionality in my view. I thought the effect could actually do more, or something. (Though I was having a hard time imaging what more such an effect might do.)
                          • 10. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                            the_wine_snob Level 9
                            I don't know, if one needs to alter the color for the TimeCode to make it stand out against the footage, I'd say that it's a bit more than "fluff." However, it is not a dramatically different implementation of the Effect.

                            Hunt
                            • 11. Re: TIMECODE BLUES!
                              bill66man Level 1
                              I'm having issues with the timecode effect as well (although I'm willing to admit it could be something other than the effect). here is how I am implementing it:

                              1. Drag transparent video to track 4 (vid trks 1-3 in use).
                              2. Add timecode effect. Set to 'Generate' and start at '01:00:00:00'.
                              3. Elongate track to length of Sequence (approx. 19 mins).
                              4. Render.

                              After a few minutes of rendering, Premiere 'runs out of memory' and can't complete the render. Sometimes it hangs during the render. (I've got 4gigs RAM running CS3 on XP). So far it has never been able to sucessfully render that long of a track.

                              I also don't like having to re-render the entire timecode track if I make just a slight adjustment or trim to it.