1 2 3 Previous Next 117 Replies Latest reply on Feb 22, 2009 11:28 PM by Desmond S.

    Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps

    Level 1
      I have been editing a feature film of mine, and it was shot on 29.97 fps. But in Premiere, when exporting the entire timeline to a movie, you have the option to do it as an AVI and as 24 fps. I've done it, which takes almost two days, and the quality looks great, but it still isn't that clear. It seems that the conversion should be better.

      And when I burnt it onto a dvd, the motion wasn't smooth and real. Though when burning the entire timeline to a DV-AVI, which is automatically 29.97, it burns onto a dvd fine.

      Is there a way to do the 24 fps conversion this way, and do it so the result is a lot more clearer and crisper?

      - Ken
        • 1. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
          Dan Isaacs Level 2
          http://dv2film.com
          • 2. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
            Level 1
            Yes, I've tried that, and it doesn't work. Waste of time
            • 3. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
              Level 1
              Okay Dan, since you created a dv2film plugin and I did what the site asked and placed it into the correct folder, yet what does that do?

              I apologize for stating it's a waste of time, but I have spent awhile trying to figure it out but cannot. Please explain in a more in depth way, because I have run the avi synch script batcher and virtual dub programs doing EXACTLY what is asked, yet it always comes up with the same response, "error."

              It may be due to the instructions on templates not being that clear.

              So please, I would really appreciate some help on this, thanks.
              • 4. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                Would a tutorial help? I've got one in work, but I'm not sure how useful it would be.
                • 5. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                  Level 1
                  Yes please, I would appreciate that MORE THAN ANYTHING. Thanks so much.

                  I know it's hard to explain it all since there's a lot, with all the templates and codes and everything but what I want is very basic. I have an .avi that's exported as a DV AVI 29.97 fps from premiere, and i just want to convert it to any format(prefer a .avi or .mov of course) that's 24 fps. That's all. Just want the 24 fps. So just a run down of what I need to put in the template area of avi synch batch scripter and all that.

                  Thanks
                  • 6. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                    (C._David_Young) Level 1
                    Ken,

                    I am glad you apologized to Dan. He has worked many months and countless hours to provide an excellent, completely free workflow that can give professional results. His Avisynth scripts are both simple and flexible, but they may require a certain amount of experimentation to achieve the best results. Of course, this assumes that you have everything installed correctly, which based on your "error" comment is your first hurdle. There are installation instructions out there for everything. Just search around and read. Each of the components, the Debugmode Frameserver plugin for Premiere and AviSynth can be tested separately to insure they are working. Then you can start trying out Dan's Avisynth scripts.

                    It sounds like you already have a DV AVI file. In this case you don't even need the Frameserver. Assume that the file is named "DV60i.avi". You can just create a text file named "myscript.avs" with a single line:

                    dv60i2film("DV60i.avi")

                    Now, normally you open this file with an encoder like HCencoder to convert it to mpeg to author a DVD. It sounds like you would like to convert it to work with it further as a 24p DV file. I don't know why you would want to do that, but if that is the case I would create a Premiere DV 24p project and import your .avs file into that. You can then do whatever you like with it in Premiere, although scrubbing the timeline may be a little slow because Avisynth is converting your 30i file in realtime to 24p.

                    All that being said, the default conversion to 24p that dv60i2film does may not be exactly what you want. It is a complex process and requires many tradeoffs. You might have to learn about some of the other parameters available to dv60i2film and experiment. I am sure Dan or others here would he willing to help if you tell them exactly what you are trying to accomplish.
                    • 7. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                      (C._David_Young) Level 1
                      I forgot to mention VirtualDub. You can open your .avs file with this application to see the output from Avisynth. You can even save the output as an .avi file, but it will be uncompressed and incredibly large unless you choose one of the compression methods available in VirtualDub.
                      • 8. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                        Level 1
                        Oh I'm fine with the file once it's in 24 fps, there won't be any need to open it in Premiere and work with it again. The initial 29.97 fps DV AVI file I have will be the final fully edited cut. I just need to make it into a single 24 fps file and I'm good.

                        So can I just follow your instructions using the HCencoder, or do I still have to go through all the steps with the avi synch batch scripter and virtual dub?
                        • 9. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                          (C._David_Young) Level 1
                          I'm sorry Ken, but I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to accomplish. I understood that you had already edited the video in Premiere. Do you need to edit it more in another application that will only accept 24p?

                          In any case, if you need to edit it further you don't want to use HCencoder. That will convert it to mpeg for authoring a DVD.

                          Provide us with a few more details of what your goal is here and we should be able to help you.
                          • 10. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                            Level 1
                            Hi, I apologize for not being clear.

                            I already edited my video in Premiere and exported it as a DV AVI. It's in 29.97 fps, which was how it was initially recorded, so no quality has been lost. That's the file I have, one single .avi

                            My goal is to convert that movie file, the .avi, into one that is 24 fps. That's all. Once I have that, I just want to place that file onto a DVD. Done.

                            So my goal is just to make that single .avi file which is in 29.97 fps, into one that is 24fps. Then put it onto a dvd using nero, adobe encore, any.

                            Please let me know if there's anything else I can say. Thanks so much again for sticking with this, I can't stress how much I appreciate it. I wasted two days exporting the file in premiere to 24 fps, only to find the result wasn't that great. It looks way better than 29.97 fps, but the quality wasn't great.

                            - Ken
                            • 11. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                              (C._David_Young) Level 1
                              Ok, that is much clearer. Thanks.

                              Despite what you think, you really don't want to create another .avi file nor edit it further in 24p. You just want to encode it to mpeg and author a DVD.

                              In that case you want to follow my previous instructions and open the .avs file with HC encode. It is pretty good about detecting the correct settings and selecting the correct output settings. You can adjust them if needed. In particular, since you are converting to 24p it will probably warn you that you should select pulldown. I am not sure if this is the correct thing to do but I usually do it anyway. Others will correct me if I am wrong.

                              If for some reason you would prefer to use Premiere to do the encoding, you can import the .avs and export it from there. I think HC encoder does a better job.

                              If you are looking for the best possible quality for your DVD I would not convert to 24p at all. There is a loss in quality in going from 60i to 24p. 30p is a much cleaner conversion from your current 60i. Even though 30p is not strictly DVD legal, I am assured by others that most DVD players play it anyway. If you decide to go this route then instead of using the dv60i2film script, use the following line in your .avs file:

                              hd2sd("your.avi", OutputFieldRate=30, SmoothTime=false)

                              This assumes that you have downloaded and installed Dan's hd2sd script and supporting functions from

                              http://invertedhorn.axspace.com/hd2sd.zip

                              Even though this script was designed to convert HDV to DV it actually works just as well for rate conversions of DV.
                              • 12. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                Level 1
                                Hi Mr. Young,

                                I am still unable to get this to work after downloading the HcEncoder. Not sure what else to do. I think I may be missing a step to what I need to do.

                                Once again, I have an .avi file that is a DV-AVI, and I just want it to get to a DVD in 24 fps in the best possible quality.

                                I get errors in the HCencoder, meaning I'm sure I'm not creating the correct avs file.

                                Would Visual Hub be better for this?
                                • 13. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                  Level 1
                                  I really just want an mpeg-2 to burn to a dvd that's 24 fps, that's all 24 fps is very important.
                                  • 14. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                    Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                    Hi Ken,

                                    I should have a decent tutorial available by Monday or Tuesday. It's a 2-parter and the first part is about downloading and installing the tools properly.

                                    I'll post a Flash version for viewing on the web, and a Podcast version downloadable for your iPod.

                                    Part 2 (end of the week or early next week) will cover how to use those tools. It's geared toward batch processing raw captured DV video, but the techniques can be modified slightly for processing just a single file.

                                    -Jeff
                                    • 15. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                      (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                      Jeff, that will be a big help I am sure. Thanks!

                                      Ken, if you could give me the content of you .avs file (should be just 1 line) and also the error that you are getting from HCencoder I might be able to tell you what is wrong.
                                      • 16. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                        Ruud Blauw Level 1
                                        >24 fps is very important.

                                        Why?
                                        • 17. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                          Level 1
                                          24 fps looks a lot better. The quality is a lot sharper and looks more professional than 30 fps. I have been trying to use visual hub to convert to an mpeg-2 with 24fps. The quality has been great, but I can't seem to get it perfect. Little pixel blotches appear every now and then. I am not sure if I am choosing the correct settings. Does anyone have any experience with this program?

                                          I am also going to wait on Jeff's tutorial, thanks so much Jeff, really appreciate all this help.

                                          David, I was unable to create a correct .avs file, because when I went to create a txt file in notepad and wordpad, it would not let me label it just as .avs, and when I did so after, I believe it messed up the file. I am sure I did that wrong.
                                          • 18. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                            (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                            Yes, later version of Windows has been getting worse about making it difficult to change the file extension. There are number of ways of changing the extension, but one that I use is Windows Commander, a shareware program, or Beyond Compare, a great file utility and comparison tool that everybody should have.
                                            • 19. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                              (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                              BTW, the conversion to 24 fps will do nothing but degrade the quality. The AviSynth script dv60i2film will minimize this, but in my experience it is better to just deinterlace and leave it as 30p.
                                              • 20. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                The first part of the tutorial, making sure you have the tools and that they are installed correctly, should be live later tonight or early tomorrow.

                                                It'll be a couple of days after that before the second part that goes through the actual conversion steps goes live.

                                                As for the 24p versus the 30p end result, all I can say is this: film is shot at 24 fps. If your goal is to make your video look more like film, then 24p is what you want. 30p may have "higher quality" (a very subjective term and one that requires a definite context), but 24p is the foundation for achieving the film look. Advanced color correction with tools like Magic Bullet Looks will complete the effect.

                                                The latest dv2Film default settings were arrived at after many hours (Did I say "many"? That's an horrific understatement) of testing to obtain the best compromise between the best result and the fastest rendering. Any other choice either requires a phenomenal increase in render time (almost 10 times as long) or a reduction in the fidelity of the film look that results from the conversion.
                                                • 21. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                  Level 1
                                                  Okay, thank you. I look forward to the tutorial.

                                                  Yeah my goal is to make film look more like one, so the 24 fps is amazing how it looks compared to the what it was shot at. I've been trying visual hub a lot, and the effect is great. But I don't understand why, but there is a moment where a quick pixel insert is shown, messing with the video, and the movement in pan shots isn't as smooth, I'm guessing that's from the conversion. Will the dv2film program fix these and be better than visual hub?

                                                  so I could follow your instructions from about about the hcencoder and just use window commander to create my scripts right?

                                                  It seemed very simple from above about how to burn the file onto a dvd and having it code to 24 fps from the hcencoder.
                                                  • 22. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                    Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                    >the movement in pan shots isn't as smooth, I'm guessing that's from the conversion. Will the dv2film program fix these and be better than visual hub?

                                                    If panning movement isn't "smooth", then likely there is little or no motion compensation going on during the frame rate conversion.

                                                    If panning movement is too "blurry", then likely there is too much mocomp occurring.

                                                    dv2Film has parameter adjustments available to correct either one of these conditions. How much you want to compromise in one direction or the other is up to you.
                                                    • 23. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                      Level 1
                                                      So far the visual hub conversion has been good, there are just moments where a blotch of pixellation occurs, one that looks like a NES game. I'm not sure why. When I converted it to mpeg-2 it occured in one spot, when I did a DVD conversion (VOB) it occured in a different spot, not sure how to stop something like that so, so the dv2film thing may be my best option huh.

                                                      I just wish I was able to understand the way to work dv2film to get the smooth movement and all that.
                                                      • 24. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                        (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                                        Jeff, you used the word "compromise" several times in your description of 24p. That is exactly my point. I agree that if you are looking for the "film look" then dv2Film does an excellent job. For my own tastes however, the compromise between blurriness and jerkiness was never satisfactory. With 30p there is no compromise. It is smoother and crisper because there is no need to drop frames in converting from 60i to 30p and the only blending is between the 2 fields of the same frame, which results in minimal motion artifacts. (I know you know this but I am explaining for Ken's sake.) I don't mean to open the 24p vs. 30p debate here, I just feel like many people who are trying to make their 60i videos look better would actually be happier with 30p. It also has the advantage of faster encoding.
                                                        • 25. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                          Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                          Ken -- have you gotten this working?
                                                          • 26. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                            Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                            Sorry it took longer than expected. My anal-retentive attention to detail got the better of me.

                                                            Here's part one of the tutorial

                                                            dv2FilmPartOne

                                                            EDIT: Ken, as I went through this, I thought that part of your problem might be that you didn't have a VFW DV codec on your system. If that's the issue, then the tutorial will show you how to get a good, free VFW DV codec.
                                                            • 27. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                              Level 1
                                                              Thank you I will look at the tutorial. I really appreciate all the help.

                                                              So the last few days I've been trying other things. I was trying visual hub to convert to a 24 fps mpeg, but there kept being problems in small instances. Little glitches in the conversion like a quick flash of a Nintendo pixel sort of image.

                                                              I then tried AVS video converter which worked perfectly. The only problem is with smooth video. For the most part it looked great, the video quality was perfect, except when there was any fast camera movement, it would slow down, which I assume is cause of the conversion. I also realized that since my file was 29.97 fps, a conversion to 23.976 would make more sense and possibly fix the problems I was having with visual hub.

                                                              So to end, I did that in AVS video converter, but the movement in those certain parts with the quick pans, etc, weren't smooth. Will Dan's program be able to fix those or is that just an inevitable result for getting better picture?
                                                              • 28. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                Level 1
                                                                Wow you really went all out on the tutorial, can't thank you enough for that, wow. I was just expected a text document. Very impressive, thanks again. So part 2 should be able to fix the movement problems I've been having while using Avs video converter right?
                                                                • 29. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                  Level 1
                                                                  Sorry Jeff I saw earlier that you mentioned why the movement isn't smooth, and that dv2film will be able to fix this. Thanks. Really looking forward to part 2 so I can finally finish this more complicated than I Imagined process over with. Thank you again.
                                                                  • 30. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                    (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                                                    Jeff, great tutorial. Only problem is that you have taken all the mystery and fun out of finding and setting up these tools! Looking forward to part 2!
                                                                    • 31. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                      >I saw earlier that you mentioned why the movement isn't smooth, and that dv2film will be able to fix this

                                                                      Within reason. Any really fast camera pans will have issues at 24 fps. If you insist on perfectly smooth, then the frame blending that must occur will blur the image - perhaps unacceptably so.

                                                                      If you need a sharper image with less frame blending, then the movement will appear to be more "jerky" as you decrease the frame blending.

                                                                      The bottom line is that dv2Film is very flexible, so you can go either way.

                                                                      For slow to moderate pans, the slight stuttering is part of what helps sell the film look, because that is what we are used to seeing in the movies (which run at 24 fps).
                                                                      • 32. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                        Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                        Thanks for the comments, guys. :)
                                                                        • 33. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                          (C._David_Young) Level 1
                                                                          Hey, Jeff, while these tutorials on dv2Film are great, what I would really like to see is a tutorial on how you make your tutorials! Is it an easy thing to record the desktop and then add the graphics and animation? What about mixing in your narration? Is this done with Windows or do you use Premiere to add the voice track and then export?
                                                                          • 34. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                            Level 1
                                                                            Cool, so basically if I want really good quality video the pans are going to be jerky and there's nothing I can do about that. But with dv2film I can make it have some motion compensation right? So somewhere in the middle with the frame blending, I could get less jerky movement and have the image not be that blurry? But to get the best quality I'll just have to keep the jerkiness? Did I get that right?
                                                                            • 35. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                              Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                              >Did I get that right?

                                                                              Yes. :)
                                                                              >what I would really like to see is a tutorial on how you make your tutorials!

                                                                              I shamelessly copied the method Aharon Rabinowitz demonstrated in his Creative Cow Master Series DVD, Internet Killed the Video Star: A Guide to Creating Video for the Web.

                                                                              I script the tutorial, then I record the audio in Sb. I clean it up and time it to match the script. Then I play the recorded audio in a media player while I capture the screen moves using Camtasia Studio. I like to do it that way because while Camtasia is recording, I just do what the audio clip tells me to do.

                                                                              Until CS4, I brought the audio and video into Pr and edited them together, inserting graphics, titles and effects. Since CS4 I've switched to doing all of that in After Effects because Pr CS4 has a weird bug where it chokes on Camtasia video files (any codec) that are longer than 3 1/2 minutes.

                                                                              For a podcast, I've always used AE because it's so easy to keyframe the zooms and pans that are required for making an 800x600 tutorial legible on a 320x240 iPod video screen. My source used to be a lossless intermediate video file from Pr, but now I just animate the master AE comp.

                                                                              I export lossless from AE, and encode to Flash and/or H.264 using Squeeze. Then I put the video with a player in Flash CS4, and produce and upload to the web.
                                                                              • 36. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                                Eddie Lotter Level 4
                                                                                >it chokes on Camtasia video files (any codec) that are longer than 3 1/2 minutes.

                                                                                It's a pity Camtasia doesn't offer you the option of creating multiple fixed length files.

                                                                                Would it be worth using an external utility to split up the single Camtasia file into bite sized chunks for PPro?


                                                                                Cheers
                                                                                Eddie

                                                                                PremiereProPedia   ( RSS feed)
                                                                                - Over 300 frequently answered questions
                                                                                - Over 250 free tutorials
                                                                                - Maintained by editors like you
                                                                                Forum FAQ
                                                                                • 37. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                                  Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                                  >Would it be worth using an external utility to split up the single Camtasia file into bite sized chunks for PPro?

                                                                                  You mean like After Effects? :D
                                                                                  • 38. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                                    Eddie Lotter Level 4
                                                                                    >You mean like After Effects?

                                                                                    If you have it. Not everyone does. Use the tool that works. ;)


                                                                                    Cheers
                                                                                    Eddie

                                                                                    PremiereProPedia   ( RSS feed)
                                                                                    - Over 300 frequently answered questions
                                                                                    - Over 250 free tutorials
                                                                                    - Maintained by editors like you
                                                                                    Forum FAQ
                                                                                    • 39. Re: Exporting a 29.97 timeline to 24 fps
                                                                                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                                      >If you have it. Not everyone does.

                                                                                      It's hard to get my head around that concept since "it's all about ME". :)

                                                                                      In Camtasia Studio, you can export a selection, so selecting 3-minute chunks and producing those would work.

                                                                                      Do you know of any file utilities that will split an .avi or .mov file into segmented lengths automatically? That would sure save some time.
                                                                                      1 2 3 Previous Next