20 Replies Latest reply on Feb 23, 2009 3:20 PM by stenapp

    PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior

    stenapp Level 1
      I'm editing 1440x1080 anamorphic, and it has been fine in the past. Something has changed. Lately when I place an avi file on the timeline, it has the red bar indicating it needs to be rendered. However, the file reads cleanly in both the source and timeline monitors, and it can easily be worked on without rendering. If I export the timeline to an avi before rendering, the avi can usually be read in Windows Media Player, at least in part.

      However, once I render the file on the timeline, it cannot be viewed from the timeline. The timeline monitor shows the screen for an unreadable file. And when I export the timeline image with the unreadable rendered image, it creates an avi that will not play in Windows Media Player. Also, the VLC media player reports these exports as "broken." Yet, this same avi will import into PPro as a readable file. The source monitor can read it all the time, but the timeline monitor can only read it if I do NOT render it. If I try to export this second generation version of the avi, it will not play in Media Player, whether I have prerendered it or not.

      Oddly enough, the render files themselves, which come out as mpegs in the preview folder, WILL play in Windows Media Player 11 (which I am running under Win XP Pro).

      So, what the heck is going on? Has anyone else here ever run into this?

      What do I have to do to fix this? Or at least, how do I troubleshoot it further? I hope someone can tell me, because I sure can't use PPCS3 this way.
        • 1. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          1440 x 1080 suggests HDV, yet you say you're using an AVI. Why the discrepancy? Where did you get the AVI file?
          • 2. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
            stenapp Level 1
            Thanks for asking, Jim. Discrepancy? Not sure what you mean.

            On my system PPro outputs HDV captures as mpeg files, but these cannot be read on the timeline. In order to edit them I use the Cineform HD Link utility to convert them to avi files which can be read on the timeline.

            So I'm using Cineform Aspect 5.0 behind everything, and am about to upgrade to Prospect HD. But the Cineform codecs have performed well on my system up to now, and have a good track record with CS3 as far as I know. At any rate, this is a workflow they support.

            HD Link could be used to do the captures, but I prefer the PPro interface. It does seem odd though that PPro cannot read its own capture files. At least, that is how it works on my system.

            What file format do you use for editing HDV footage in PPro CS3?
            • 3. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              >In order to edit them I use the Cineform HD

              That was the missing data. Info like this should always be mentioned in the original post.

              Unfortunately, I have no experience with Cineform, so I'm not sure I can help with those. However, I would ask why you say the HDV MPEG files "cannot be read on the timeline"? CS3 does fully support native HDV editing.
              • 4. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                stenapp Level 1
                Holy cow! A lot of difference from yesterday, but not enough to call it. Sorry for the long post.

                I have no idea what has happened to change this, but when I started up PPro today, and looked at the timeline I was using yesterday to test all this, I found that avi clips on the timeline that I had rendered yesterday and could not read are today able to be read. I put another avi clip on the timeline that needed to be rendered, and, after rendering it today, it too was viewable. Not so, yesterday.

                Jim, I have never been able to import an mpeg into PPCS3 that I could read on the timeline. Instead I would get the yellow-green incompatibility screen instead of a recorded image in the timeline monitor and in the thumbnail image in the project panel. I got the red line signalling a need to render an mpeg on the timeline, whether the file was imported or came in as a capture. Rendering it did not make the images in the clip appear. So I just figured that mpegs were incompatible. I even saw some articles that mentioned the preference for avi conversion as the appropriate workaround. So it never dawned on me that my experience might have been due to a glitch.

                Today, however, I imported an mpeg clip from the original batch capture for this project, and after the audio conformed, the image was visible in the thumbnail viewer. Mind you, it had not worked before. When I placed it on the timeline there was no line above it (red or green) and I could view it.

                One sour note is that when I tried outputting a new test sequence the resulting avi did not work in Media Player. I will be testing this today.

                At any rate, something that was interfering with the proper operation of PPCS3 yesterday, and for quite some time before that, is not causing trouble yet today. I did make a major change yesterday: I cleaned my registry. That did not seem to make a difference yesterday even after a few reboots, but having the machine down overnight may have allowed it to completely discharge to a clean state. Too soon to tell.

                Perhaps you can clue me in on something that may have a role in all this. When I did the CS3 upgrade from CS2, it left the CS2 installation intact. Is it okay to have them both in the system, or should I remove them both and start over with a clean install of CS3 alone? I didn't mind because i prefer audition to soundbooth, but I've always been suspicious of that for PPro and AE, and this business with the mpegs is just reinforcing that suspicion. I mean, I clean the registry, and now I can see?!

                Anyway I am going to test this thing out, and if I learn anything useful will report it.
                • 5. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  >So I just figured that mpegs were incompatible.

                  Many times, they are. But with HDV, support is built-in.

                  >I tried outputting a new test sequence the resulting avi did not work in Media Player.

                  This may be explained by your export settings. What were they?

                  >Is it okay to have them both in the system

                  At one time I had 1.5, 2.0 and CS3 installed on my system with no issues.
                  • 6. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                    stenapp Level 1
                    Well, this is proving to be quite a roller coaster ride. Yesterday I was able to render avi clips on the timeline and view them in the timeline monitor. Today I am back to being unable to do that. However, I AM still able to import and read the mpeg captures I had made earlier.

                    To answer your question, Jim.

                    The following export settings all call for rendering the entire sequence, exporting audio and video (although there is no audio track on the test samples) at 1440x1080 millions of colors (anamorphic 1.333 pixel size) at 29.97fps using the project settings for bit depth as interlaced video (lower field first). The sound settings are at 48K uncompressed 16-bit stereo.

                    The following table presents the results of trying different combinations of codec and export file type:

                    File type-----------------------codec--------------------------result
                    Microsoft AVI -----------Cineform HD codec V3.10---------------fails
                    Microsoft AVI -----------Uncompressed UVYV 422 8bit------------fails
                    Uncompressed Microsoft AVI----10-bit YUV (4:2:2 YUV)-----------succeeds
                    Cineform HD export--------Cineform HD export-------------------succeeds

                    The combos that work for interlaced give an even cleaner result with de-interlaced, but the Cineform workflow gives clean compressed files. Just out of curiosity, what settings would I be using if I did not have the Cineform in my system at all?

                    Anyway, thank you Jim for your valuable time and advice. I think this gets it. I am archiving the settings results just in case I forget what I have learned here. And thanks too for the word on multiple versions.

                    Now if I could just figure out what is messing up those renders on the timeline. It worked fine yesterday. I had to run an earlier version of the edit project, which had crashed at some point. I suspect that the project file for that earlier version is corrupted and is causing the render problem in this newer version. Unfortunately the earlier file is indispensible and cannot be deleted without losing some important editing steps. OTOH, if that is the source of this problem, it might be better to get rid of it. Sure wish I could figure out what it is toggling.
                    • 7. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      >Uncompressed Microsoft AVI----10-bit YUV (4:2:2 YUV)

                      Just as an FYI, this setting is for use with the AJA Xena card. You say it succeeds, but I'm not certain what that means, as videos exported with this setting normally will not work outside of Premiere and Encore without that card.
                      • 8. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                        stenapp Level 1
                        In this case it means it created a file I can run in Media Player. And it does run. However, the same content that made a 37MB file with the Cineform codec, weighed in at 625MB with this. BTW this is the default codec within PPCS3 for uncompressed AVI on my system.

                        What settings would you use for 1080i export if you didn't have the Cineform plug-in? Or do you just port out to blu-ray with H.264?
                        • 9. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                          >BTW this is the default codec within PPCS3 for uncompressed AVI on my system.

                          That's true, but I'm still surprised it worked. Normally these exports would only work in Premiere or Encore. Playback in outside applications requires the card. Given the vagaries of your problems, I do have to start wondering if I'm seeing some observer error here.

                          I mean, how do these exports work for you, and no one else? I'm not there so I can't say with certainty, but logic would suggest that this export actually didn't work, and that you confused it with one that does, such as the one right above it on your list, which is the proper choice for Uncompressed export without the AJA card and one that I would expect to work for everyone.

                          The only other logical explanation I can think of is that you do have an AJA card and failed to mention it, but I'd like to assume the lesson about reporting add-ons was learned in post 3.
                          • 10. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                            stenapp Level 1
                            Long post but it gets to the conclusion of the matter.

                            >Given the vagaries of your problems, I do have to start wondering if I'm seeing some observer error here.

                            Well, you must be right about that, Jim, since nothing seems consistent from one day to the next.

                            >but logic would suggest that this export actually didn't work, and that you confused it with one that does,

                            Okay. There is no AJA card, and I did use the default codec just as I reported. I used a file name code system to distinguish the files by name. Here were the names and filesizes:
                            test08b-1080i after render-cin.avi-----------37101KB
                            test08b-1080i after render-unc.avi-----------625301KB

                            The "cin" and "unc" tags reflect the "cineform" compressed and "uncompressed" versions respectively.
                            I used GSpot today to verify the codec choices I reported and they checked out. So, all I can figure is that I ran the wrong one when I was reporting the results of the Uncompressed file. Today I made sure it was the right file, and it did not run, as you predicted. I don't know how else to account for it.

                            I also ran the following test today:
                            Uncompressed Microsoft AVI-----------8-bit YUV (4:2:2 YUV)--------succeeds

                            I notice that this is not the same codec name as the 8-bit option I had reported earlier from the list for the Microsoft AVI file type. Are they both names for the same codec?

                            File type codec result
                            Microsoft AVI - Uncompressed UVYV 422 8bit - fails
                            Uncompressed Microsoft AVI---------8-bit YUV (4:2:2 YUV)--------succeeds

                            It seems odd that the codec option in the first of these two trials is even offered at all. It's confusing.

                            Anyway thanks for helping me clear that up, Jim. I think we have the output end of the problem covered very well, and I apologize for not being better at this kind of troubleshooting.

                            I think I also now have a good idea as to what has been causing the trouble on my timeline.

                            Using GSpot I verified that all my source files were formed under the influence of a Cineform codec. When I started a new project using the same PPro HDV preset used to create the source files, imported one of these files, and brought it to the timeline, I got the red bar telling me it needed to be rendered. When I rendered it, the file could not be read on the timeline. I now believe that this was corrupting my project files, particularly when the edits became complex or long.

                            However, when I configured the project with a Cineform preset for the same specs, and brought in the same test file as above, there was no red bar. I made a slight edit so I could render the file, and found that upon render it was fully readable. So the problem is that I should not be trying to edit source material formed with the Cineform codec uder the standard PPro HDV presets. I think that takes care of it. Now I know how to avoid making these corrupt project files when I have the Cineform plugins in place.

                            The key diagnostic tool for determining this problem was the GSpot utility.

                            Does that sound about right to you, Jim? Thanks for giving me the space to think this through.
                            • 11. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                              >I used GSpot today to verify the codec choices I reported and they checked out.

                              What did it say.

                              >Microsoft AVI - Uncompressed UVYV 422 8bit - fails

                              >Uncompressed Microsoft AVI---------8-bit YUV (4:2:2 YUV)--------succeeds

                              That is exactly opposite of what any other user would experience. You writing this post from Bizarro world or something?

                              >Are they both names for the same codec?

                              They are not. The Uncompressed Microsoft AVI option uses an AJA codec, the Microsoft AVI with None as the compressor is just straight RGB.

                              >I should not be trying to edit source material formed with the Cineform codec under the standard PPro HDV presets.

                              Well...yeah. You really saying this was the problem the whole time?
                              • 12. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                stenapp Level 1
                                >What did it say.

                                The two files I had reported were:
                                test08b-1080i after render-cin.avi-----------37101KB
                                test08b-1080i after render-unc.avi-----------625301KB

                                From GSpot
                                Codec for the first file was: CFHD
                                Name: CineForm 10-bit visually Perfect HD (Wavelet)

                                For the second file it was: v.210
                                Name: Optibase VideoPump 10-bit 4:2:2 Component Y'CbCr

                                For the 8-bit version reported in my last post:
                                test09-1080i after render-unc8-bit.avi (succeeds)

                                codec: UYVY
                                name: UYVY (packed 4:2:2)

                                I had not used the "None" option for codec under Microsoft AVI, I used the one above that which is titled as I reported it. However, I just ran a test for the "none" option, and the file cannot be read in Media Player.

                                If this is flip flopped from what you would normally expect, then I think that using the Cineform codec on the source files and then trying to use the usual codecs in exporting from the standard HDV presets is producing corrupted files.

                                >Well...yeah. You really saying this was the problem the whole time?

                                It's a little too soon for me to say about whether this was the whole problem, since I must confess I have never run a project entirely with the Cineform presets all the way. However, I will be doing that for my next project, and I expect things to go much more smoothly than ever before. We shall see. But in a word, yes, I think that has been the chief problem all along. :blush:
                                • 13. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                  >For the second file it was: v.210

                                  This is the AJA file generated from using Uncompressed Microsoft AVI "10 bit" option. It should not work outside of Premiere or Encore if you don't have the card. Are you saying it does?

                                  >I just ran a test for the "none" option, and the file cannot be read in Media Player.

                                  This is the one that should work no problems, as it's just straight RGB.
                                  • 14. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                    stenapp Level 1
                                    >This is the AJA file generated from using Uncompressed Microsoft AVI "10 bit" option. It should not work outside of Premiere or Encore if you don't have the card. Are you saying it does?

                                    No.

                                    >[the "none" option] is the one that should work no problems, as it's just straight RGB.

                                    It doesn't.

                                    Connecting the reports from one post to the next is getting confusing, so let me sort it out.

                                    The original table in post #6 was in error on the third entry, as you pointed out and I agreed; the file did not run. So I gave revised info and more detail on the last two entries from that table. Here is the summary for those two and three more which followed:

                                    ---------------------------------
                                    Premiere settings options:
                                    Uncompressed Microsoft AVI----10-bit YUV (4:2:2 YUV)-----------fails

                                    file exported:
                                    test08b-1080i after render-unc.avi-----------625301KB

                                    From GSpot
                                    Codec: v.210
                                    Name: Optibase VideoPump 10-bit 4:2:2 Component Y'CbCr

                                    -----------

                                    Premiere settings options:
                                    Cineform HD export--------Cineform HD export-------------------succeeds

                                    file exported:
                                    test08b-1080i after render-cin.avi-----------37101KB

                                    From GSpot
                                    Codec: CFHD
                                    Name: CineForm 10-bit visually Perfect HD (Wavelet)

                                    ----------------------------------

                                    In addition to these I reported on two 8-bit tests in post #10:

                                    Premiere settings options:
                                    Microsoft AVI -----------Uncompressed UVYV 422 8bit------------fails

                                    file exported:
                                    test08-1080i after render-unc.avi------------468,749KB

                                    From GSpot:
                                    codec: UYVY
                                    name: UYVY (packed 4:2:2)

                                    ---------------------

                                    Premiere settings options:
                                    Uncompressed Microsoft AVI---------8-bit YUV (4:2:2 YUV)--------succeeds

                                    file exported:
                                    test09-1080i after render-unc8-bit.avi-------867,947

                                    From GSpot
                                    codec: UYVY
                                    name: UYVY (packed 4:2:2)
                                    ----------------------------------

                                    Finally I reported on the use of the "none" codec option:

                                    Premiere settings options:
                                    Microsoft AVI ----------------------None------------------------fails

                                    file exported:
                                    test09-1080i after render-none.avi-----------1298544KB

                                    From GSpot
                                    Codec: (_RGB)
                                    Name: BI_RGB Raw Bitmap

                                    Note that the "None" codec option was only available under the Microsoft AVI file type. For the Uncompressed Microsoft AVI file type, there were only two options, 8-bit and 10-bit, both of which are reported here. Of these last three combinations only one produced a file that could be played in Media Player on my system.
                                    • 15. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                      OK.

                                      I understand why the first fails, no AJA card. (Though GSpot should have reported the V.210 codec here, not Optibase. Never heard of that one.)

                                      Second, makes total sense.

                                      Third, codec makes sense, but not sure why it plays for you. Such exports don't play for me as I don't have the AJA card.

                                      Fourth, codec is as expected, but I don't understand why it won't play. That is not normal. At this point I'd guess that you have some system issues if this file won't play outside of Premiere. If that's true, those system issues could be effecting performance within Premiere.
                                      • 16. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                        stenapp Level 1
                                        Your tally ended with four, but there were five tests reported. It seems to me that you skipped the Cineform result (result #2) in your comments and tally, which I could understand, but would like a confirmation that this is so.

                                        If I got that right, then it is the last two results that are abnormal. What is somewhat disconcerting for me is that the second from last option is the only file that plays in Media Player and can be viewed in After Effects. The Cineform based files cannot be read in After Effects, but all of these test files (except for the Cineform file) can be viewed on the AE timeline. I did not try exporting from there, and all of that is really another subject. But I would like to find out what I have to do to fix the anomalies here.

                                        On the last one you mentioned the possibility of "system issues." I realize that you don't have the details of my system and cannot be more specific than this general comment. But did you have anything in particular in mind when you made that comment?

                                        Ummm, what shall I say?
                                        Enter this section at your own risk:
                                        --------------------------
                                        Here BTW is the general hardware config:
                                        Dual Quad Xeon (Clovertown) 2.33 GHz;
                                        Tyan S2696 MoBo
                                        4 Gb RAM 4x1GB (FB-DIMM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) ECC Fully Buffered Dual Channel),
                                        850W Thermaltake PS,
                                        System drive: WD raptor 150 Gb (x2) in RAID 0,
                                        Edit drive: 2Tb (500 Gb x4) in RAID 0;
                                        KINGWIN KF-813-BK SATA Mobile Rack (swappable drives) + PCI card
                                        GPU: nVidia Quadro FX4500;
                                        running Windows XP Pro

                                        The tech I had put this machine together for me left a boot error unresolved from day 1, so the potential for "system issues" has always been with me. And the video card drivers keep disappearing on me and have to be reinstalled. The most recent driver that works with this card that I am able to install is 169.96. I can't get ForceWare drivers to install.
                                        • 17. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                                          >It seems to me that you skipped the Cineform result

                                          Nope. Skipped number 4 by mistake. (Microsoft AVI/Uncompressed UVYV 422 8bit) This one should work. The fourth (another AJA option) should not. The fifth and final (None) should work fine.

                                          >did you have anything in particular in mind when you made that comment?

                                          No. I just can't imagine why you'd not be able to play an Uncompressed RGB file in a media player. I've never heard of such a situation.
                                          • 18. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                            stenapp Level 1
                                            Sorry for delay in reply. I had an institute day yesterday.

                                            >Nope. Skipped number 4 by mistake. (Microsoft AVI/Uncompressed UVYV 422 8bit) This one should work. The fourth (another AJA option) should not. The fifth and final (None) should work fine.

                                            Yeah? Well, as you can see from the data I gave, the reality of what works and what doesn't for these files is flip-flopped on my system. And your suggestion is....?

                                            Or are you still doubting the data? If so, let me know what kind of verification I can send up. File samples?
                                            • 19. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                                              >And your suggestion is....?

                                              I just don't know. This one's got me baffled. When reported data doesn't conform to known facts, there are usually one of two reasons. Relevant data was left out of the report which explains the incongruity (not knowing about Cineform as an example), or the report itself is in error.

                                              So if you're confident your report is accurate, we're back to missing relevant data. You've already confirmed the absence of an AJA card. I just don't know what else to look for to explain how you get exports to work that should not, and can't get an RGB file to play that should.
                                              • 20. Re: PP CS3 is outputting corrupted avi-strange behavior
                                                stenapp Level 1
                                                I will start a new thread if necessary, but the last post was only 12 days ago.

                                                I was about to give up when I ran into something unexpected today. I have not tested this systematically, but I found that some of the files that would not run, WILL run after all. But they will not run off the video editing hard drive. When I copied a file from the editing drive to a flash drive or to an external hard drive I was able to run the file from those locations. However, that same file would not run from my editing drive or my main system hard drive.

                                                It seems that Media Player on my system is not able to read certain types of avi files stored on any drive that is controlled by my system BIOS. The "outboard" drives are of two classes; USB portable drives, and SATA II internal drives in a swappable drive mount which is linked to the system via a card in a PCI slot.

                                                As I reported in #16 above for my system specs, the system drive and edit drive are both composed of 2 or more hard drives in RAID 0 configurations. The tech that put the machine together was never able to get all the configurations to work smoothly. Specifically, there is an undiagnosed boot error, which occurs in conjunction with recognition of the two raids in the boot cycle. In addition, if a swappable drive is in the mount and "engaged," that is, powered on, then it hangs the system during the boot cycle. However, the workaround is to leave the swappable drive turned off until Windows has fully been installed from the boot. There has so far been no trouble getting all the drives to work once Windows is running.

                                                Now it would seem that the system and edit drives are not well integrated in some way, and Media Player is responding to it by not playing the avi files it normally would recognize. That does not explain why it will play files it should not recognize, since those files also are being read from the external drives. But I think it is letting me know that the drive problem is what is behind this and needs attentions.

                                                I'm not sure how to troubleshoot this since it involves the BIOS and the raid setups, which is way out of my league. But until I can be sure the drives are working properly, I don't think I can solve this with software fixes alone.

                                                Anyway, I thought I would report what I am seeing to see if any of this makes sense. If you can think of anything, please let me know. And thanks again.