10 Replies Latest reply on Mar 6, 2009 1:33 PM by Jim_Simon

    Need to switch editing mode on active project

      I need to be able to switch editing modes on a project which is already started. Ideally, we could switch modes at any point. Here's the story:

      We have a three-monitor setup. Two monitors are for the main Premiere interface, and the third is for full-screen display of the active video. I've found that, in order to have the video in monitor 3 actually move, we have to use the "Desktop" editing mode, and then set the "Playback Settings" so that the realtime playback external device is monitor 3.

      This works well, no complaints at that point. But eventually we have to export the project to tape, and therein is the problem. The output is via Firewire to a DVCam deck. If I'm in the Desktop editing mode, the DVCam isn't seeing a valid 720x480 signal, and we get nothing (the iLink light on the DVCam just keeps blinking, indicating a problem). However, had the project been setup originally as a "DV NTSC" editing mode project, then the DVCam iLink light stays happy and steady, and I can output to the DVCam.

      However (there is always a "however"), when in the DV NTSC editing mode, I can't get full screen video to the monitor 3. Yes, I can turn on a reference monitor and move that window to monitor 3, but there is still one little issue: the video in the reference monitor doesn't move. When video is playing, the reference monitor shows only the last frame from when the video was still. When I stopp playback, the reference monitor jumps to show the paused frame. Not very useful for showing a client what their commercial will look like full screen with moving video.

      We have a work-around. If the main project is created in the desktop editing mode, we then create a second project in the DV NTSC mode, then import the first project into the second. The first project will take on the editing mode characteristics of the second project, thus allowing me to output to tape the first project.

      But it isn't as if the first project can't readily play out in the other mode. In fact, it does just fine. So what I'm at a loss to understand is why we can't just switch between the two modes directly, without this import-into-a-second-project business.

      As in interesting side note, we have a user here at our facility who also has Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 on his desktop computer, and he finds that he can switch his external device between "DV 29.97i (720 x 480)" and his extra monitor. Why his has that option, we can't determine, but there isn't anything in the primary editor which should preclude switching devices. And the only way we know to change devices is to change modes (modes or devices, we need a way to change one of them in order to get between realtime playback to either a monitor or a Firewire deck)

      Is this possible? If not, why?
        • 1. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
          shooternz Level 6
          You kind of lost me in the volume of stuff but whatever...I got the gist I think.

          Because its open and next to me at the moment PPro CS2 ( I know this works on my CS3 setup as well)

          I have a PAL DV Project open and running on 2x PC monitors and output via F/w to an external monitor. DSR11 DV/DVCAM Deck
          All monitors, records and plays back how it should.

          Realtime Playback settings:
          Desktop Video = checked
          External Device = DV25 (720x576)
          Export Setting:
          External Device = DV25 (720x576)

          Compatible Mode

          Hope this helps?
          • 2. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
            Jim_Simon Level 8
            >when in the DV NTSC editing mode, I can't get full screen video to the monitor 3.

            That's quite alright. You shouldn't be using a computer monitor for DV monitoring anyway. Use only an NTSC monitor, you know...a TV. Pass the signal out via Firewire and from there use analog connections to a real TV. Then no switching of editing modes, and correct NTSC monitoring.

            >So what I'm at a loss to understand is why we can't just switch between the two modes directly

            That used to be possible in versions of Premiere before it went Pro. Caused more problems than it solved.
            • 3. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
              Level 1
              While I could Firewire to my deck full-time, but that causes two other problems:

              1) Many of the projects we do are HD, and the deck is SD.
              2) Would rather shut off the noisy deck.

              In our case, the monitor we're using is a consumer HD LCD TV, which happens to have a VGA input. As this is the way many people now view TV, it qualifies as a real TV (similar size at 32 inches, same color gamut, same aspect ratio).
              • 4. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
                Jim_Simon Level 8
                In the case of 1), a computer monitor is probably fine because the specs are much closer. But for NTSC, an Interlaced CRT really is the proper way to monitor. You just can't get a correct SD presentation out of an LCD set - partly because of the resolution scaling, partly because it's not interlaced, and partly because it's LCD and the technology just isn't as good as CRT.
                • 5. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
                  shooternz Level 6
                  Pat - maybe time to forget some old paradigms. (ie. Change your screen set ups to meet the brave new world of HD digital video)

                  I have various ways to display playback to clients.

                  [Side note: I will admit some of them have been forced upon me by lack of CS4 drivers for Intensity Pro Cards but some I am willing to adopt as well for convenience. Some have been forced on me by playback issues in CS4 that were not issues in CS2/3.]

                  >One of them is the "tilde" key thing. Can be very cool and convenient but requires resetting to 100%.

                  >Another is playback to Monitor #2. Great option not requiring reset of screen dimension.

                  > Another is playback via a f/w device.

                  >Intensity Pro Card is other option . (Waiting on confirmation that new drivers are problem free.

                  I still have CRT monitor in my CS2 suite but the others have HD LCDs as well as good quality PC Monitors.

                  I do not know anyone using a CRT at home so I make CC/Level and grading decisions based on a combination of what I have got in the suites. LCD and digital video is a very limiting so it is best judged on top quality LCD screens. Forget CRT unfortunately and no one makes CRT Reference monitors anymore. (Willing to debate this with you Jim)
                  • 6. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                    Production Color Monitors

                    But you don't even need to go that far. Something like this will give you better NTSC playback than any LCD.
                    • 7. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
                      Level 1
                      Well, let's not worry about what makes better NTSC SD pictures. What really is the issue is whether or not (and why not or how) Premiere can switch modes so as to allow a third VGA output to show full-screen video OR send 720x480 video via Firewire to a deck.

                      The system can do both, but just can't switch once the initial choice has been made. So it isn't so much that it *can't* be done, but rather it just *isn't* being allowed (to switch).

                      So I'm wondering: perhaps there is a way.

                      And yes, there is, but it requires importing a project into a second project which happens to have the desired "other" setting. This is no doubt an awkward work-around. Which is why I'm here. Now, this edit suite used to have a *good* CRT monitor in it. Any advantage in video quality just isn't that much of a sell. And we're trying to push as much production to HD, in which case the monitor is useless. Also, any video solution which requires us to leave the deck on (in order to go from Firewire to video) is a bad solution, as the deck is noisy, and some point (hopefully soon), we'll eliminate the tape deck from the workflow (and rely on XDCAM HD instead). Yes, I could loop through the XDCAM deck, but again, it is noisy too.

                      On the issue of CRT vs LCD: for consumers, some manufacturers have stopped making and selling CRTs. People are adopting flat panel displays, either Plasma or LCD. Maybe the LCD doesn't look the same as a CRT, but if the target audience is going to be viewing on LCD anyhow, shouldn't we be looking at the picture in the same way they are? Yes, we should.

                      Again, all we really want to do -- and Adobe, I hope you're listening -- is be able to switch external devices on-the-fly. How do we do that?
                      • 8. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                        > What really is the issue is whether or not (and why not or how) Premiere can switch modes so as to allow a third VGA output to show full-screen video OR send 720x480 video via Firewire to a deck.

                        Well that's what I'm suggesting. If you set up for correct NTSC monitoring, you won't have that issue.

                        >rather it just *isn't* being allowed (to switch).

                        That is correct, and by design.

                        >if the target audience is going to be viewing on LCD anyhow, shouldn't we be looking at the picture in the same way they are? Yes, we should.

                        No, you shouldn't. At the production end of things, you should be looking at the video in the most accurate way possible. For NTSC, that means interlaced CRT. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to "adjust" to end users' setups, as there are an infinite variety of possibilities.

                        >And we're trying to push as much production to HD

                        During the switchover, you'd do best to have both monitoring options available, depending on the project.
                        • 9. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
                          shooternz Level 6
                          Pat . It appears you are prepared to invest a litle so consider a Card from Black Magic. These can meet Input and Out put functions (They are totally silent by the way.)

                          You could also "Up your game" to CS4 where one project can have multiple timelines all with different settings. eg HD and SD timelines in same project.

                          >But you don't even need to go that far. Something like this will give you better NTSC playback than any LCD.

                          I cant take you seriously Jim. (Would love to see a rack of those together.)
                          • 10. Re: Need to switch editing mode on active project
                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                            >I cant take you seriously Jim.

                            You shouldn't always.

                            But in this case, you can. I bought myself an $80 Toshiba 14" CRT off the shelf at Best Buy for monitoring, and it'll give more accurate NTSC playback than any LCD out there.