1 2 Previous Next 68 Replies Latest reply on Sep 17, 2007 6:53 AM by Jim_Simon

    P2 MXF Update

      Hi,
      I was wondering if there is any news on an update for native support for Panasonic P2 MXF. I read a while back that Adobe was working on an update to be released this year and wanted to find out if there is any truth to what I heard.
      Thanks,
      Tom
        • 1. Re: P2 MXF Update
          Harm Millaard Level 7
          No.
          • 2. Re: P2 MXF Update
            Level 1
            Somewhat.

            http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=733982&postcount=5
            • 3. Re: P2 MXF Update
              Jeron Coolman Level 1
              Heh heh, I wonder if that guy is breaking an NDA with those comments?
              • 4. Re: P2 MXF Update
                Steven L. Gotz Level 5
                Probably, or at least he is stretching it to almost the breaking point if he isn't breaking it.
                • 5. Re: P2 MXF Update
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  It was my understanding that FCP has had native support for P2 for quite some time now. Certainly Apple claims it for the newest version 6, so I'm not sure I trust what Robert Lane has to say entirely.
                  • 6. Re: P2 MXF Update
                    Curt Wrigley Level 4
                    Looks like a broken NDA to me. Some folks value ego over purpose.

                    FCP has had P2 support, including a specialized interface for non-tape acquisition. acquiring P2 assets is a lot different than capturing tape. So they have an interface for "Transfer & logging" (P2) in addition to the traditional "capture and logging" for tape.
                    • 7. Re: P2 MXF Update
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      If that's true, Curt, then Robert's assertion about Premiere beating FCP to the punch is incorrect. Can we then trust his claim that he's beta testing Premiere in some way?
                      • 8. Re: P2 MXF Update
                        Curt Wrigley Level 4
                        Well, he mentioned something about P2 direct to timeline. Im not sure what that means and if it is a significant distinction from what FCP has been doing with P2 for a while. Id rather not dbate the merit of the "announcement" since if he does know something, he ought not be announcing it anyway.

                        Curt
                        • 9. Re: P2 MXF Update
                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                          Agreed.
                          • 10. Re: P2 MXF Update
                            Level 1
                            I thought P2 support was ready judging by the topic heading!!

                            I got very excited there for a moment having read the article 2 days ago. Ahh well there goes my hopes. Unlimited Free Image and File Hosting at MediaFire
                            • 12. Re: P2 MXF Update
                              Level 1
                              Well that's nice that Adobe has that listed as a feature - I wish they would release the patch to allow that ability....I could really use it....
                              • 13. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                Level 1
                                Looks like it'll be here by the end of the month....thank God...let's hope the patch includes some bug fixes as well...

                                http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/pdfs/Panasonic2_Media_Alert.pdf
                                • 14. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                  So I was thinking about the mxf workflow and I realized that After Effects cannot currently handle mxf files.

                                  What are the chances we will not be able to export our PPro timelines to After Effects for post work? This is important to my workflow and would be an essectial aspect of editing mxf in Premiere.

                                  Is there anyone we can call or ask about this?
                                  • 15. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                    Are you sure AE can't handle them? Version 7.0 (which came with Premiere Pro 2.0) does have the necessary DVCPro HD presets.
                                    • 16. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                      Level 1
                                      I think it has DVCPROHD only on Mac OSX. If I ever want to take mxf footage into After Effects on my Windows system I have to load it in Avid, and wrap it with the AvidDV100 codec, then take it into AE.
                                      • 17. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                                        No, AE 7.0 on Windows has the preset. I can't image they dropped it for AE CS3. And though I've never tried using it, it seems weird that AE would have a preset without being able to handle the codec.
                                        • 18. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                          Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                          Lucas, Jim:
                                          The existence in AE of a series of DVCPRO HD presets only means that it is capable of creating a Comp with the proper dimmensions and pixel aspect (duh!) Please note that an AE comp is always processed internally as uncompressed, so having the DV100/DVCPRO HD codec is not required at all to create a comp that happens to match the spatial format of DVCPRO HD.

                                          So far, you could bring DVCPRO HD into AE in at least two different ways: If you have Final Cut Studio (ie, not just Mac OS X, because these codecs are part of the Final Cut install and not part of the standard Quicktime codecs) you can bring the "P2 in Quicktime container" flavor Apple uses. I understand you can use DVCPRO HD in the Win side by using Matrox cards, but I have no direct experience there.

                                          What has not yet been revealed yet is if AE will adopt PPro's native MXF support itself. If that happened (I imagine it will, sooner or later), then you wouldn't need anything else. You could drag clips directly from the P2 card to the drive and import to AE.
                                          • 19. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                            neil wilkes Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                            You can use DVCPROHD in Quicktime with the Raylight Decoder installed (4 Quicktime filters).
                                            This will open the file in Quicktime - on the desktop - and allow export & editing to whatever floats your boat.

                                            Also, for P2/MXF - get into Raylight.
                                            http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/index.htm#below
                                            • 20. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                              Level 1
                                              Hi guys,

                                              Good info. I know that Windows does not "natively" support DVCPRO HD the way OSX does. That is why it must be wrapped in a 3rd party type wrapper, like you said for using Matrox cards. Avid also has their version of DVCPROHD and its called AVID DV100. It doesn't process the footage at all when you export something with this format.

                                              I will check out the Raylight stuff and see how it holds up on Windows.
                                              • 21. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                >The existence in AE of a series of DVCPRO HD presets only means that it is capable of creating a Comp with the proper dimensions and pixel aspect (duh!)

                                                But what would be the purpose of that if you could not also being in DVCPro HD footage? It makes no sense to have a preset that cannot also handle that footage. Imagine creating a DV comp, but not being able to import and work with DV footage. Makes no sense. (Just thinking out loud here. I've very little experience with AE.)

                                                I guess the question to answer here is has anyone actually tried bringing in DVCPro HD footage into an AE DVCPro HD preset? And what happened?
                                                • 22. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                  Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                                  > I know that Windows does not "natively" support DVCPRO HD the way OSX does. That is why it must be wrapped in a 3rd party type wrapper

                                                  It's the other way around, Lucas.
                                                  The way Final Cut Studio (again, not the Mac OS it, but FCS) is native in the sense that it uses the DV100 codec. But it converts it to a Quicktime wrapper, which is not "native".

                                                  The Premiere Pro update that is coming soon will handle the MXF files as they are recorded in the P2 card. It doesn't get more "native" than that :)

                                                  > But what would be the purpose of that if you could not also being in DVCPro HD footage? It makes no sense to have a preset that cannot also handle that footage. Imagine creating a DV comp, but not being able to import and work with DV footage. Makes no sense. (Just thinking out loud here. I've very little experience with AE.)

                                                  I was afraid you were going to ask this :)
                                                  There are many possible answers.
                                                  One, if you have Final Cut Studio on a Mac (this category includes tons and tons of AE users), or a Matrox board on the PC, or that Raylight product, then you can totally use DVCPRO HD.

                                                  Then, there are at least three of four cases I can think of quickily where you can use DVCPRO HD sized comps without directly using the DVCPRO HD codec. For example, please consider that After Effects is so strong in the motion graphics/design field. It's not uncommon in that area to build very complex animations without using much "video footage" as source, but rather a combination of bitmap or vector graphics, still photos, synthetic tools in AE, and a bit of video. Now, in AE you can do this and export a movie file that has the right DVCPRO HD settings, but uses a standard/universal Quicktime or AVI codec. This means that the resulting file could be used in ANY video content creation/mastering/editing application, and become true DVCPRO HD at the end of the chain.

                                                  But, to tell you the truth, the fact that Adobe is now adding native P2/MXF support is nothing short of fantastic and many, many users were screaming for this.
                                                  • 23. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                    Level 1
                                                    But what would be the purpose of that if you could not also being in DVCPro HD footage?

                                                    Simple. See the following example:

                                                    - I record on one of the P2 cameras
                                                    - I also have a license of Cineform Aspect HD.
                                                    - Aspect HD supports P2/MXF files.
                                                    - I take those files into AE and utilize the preset.

                                                    So, if you have the encoder/decoder on the system, the preset will suit your needs. If not, then you can't use the preset. Again, doesn't apply to Cineform Aspect HD, but also applies to the Matrox products.

                                                    - Aanarav
                                                    • 24. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                      Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                                      >If not, then you can't use the preset

                                                      Hi, Aanarav!
                                                      Well, I wouldn't say you can't use the preset. As I said in the previous message, being AE so strong in design and compositing, there are many awesome things you could do without using a single frame or video footage, or perhaps using a different source format in your DVCPRO HD composition, why not? If you export it with a standard Quicktime or AVi codec, then most editing applications will be able to take it and use it on a DVCPRO HD based timeline... and there you would have instant DVCPRO HD :)
                                                      • 25. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                        OK, the explanations make (some) sense. But has anyone actually tried using DVCPro HD footage on Windows without 3rd party help to confirm that it won't work?
                                                        • 26. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                          Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                                          The Final Cut Studio flavor (DVCPRO HD wrapped in QT containers) won't work on Windows without third party help.
                                                          Adobe has not yet disclosed plans regarding native P2/DVCPRO HD/MXF support in AE (as recorded in the P2 card and ingested by PPro).
                                                          • 27. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                            Level 1
                                                            Adolfo,

                                                            Yes, you are right. I was just mentioning that you can't use DVCPro HD footage without a compatible decoder/encoder. :)

                                                            - Aanarav
                                                            • 28. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                              But has anyone actually tried to? So far I'm not hearing yes.
                                                              • 29. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                                                Yes, Jim.
                                                                It's very frequent in After Effects and Final Cut forums to read about the workarounds people have to implement when they need interoperability between these FCP files and anything on Windows (or even a Mac without FCS). Since they DON"T work (you can be sure of that) on Windows without third party tools, what most people do is convert the QT DVCPRO HD material to a standard, production-quality Quicktime codec (Animation, PhotoJPEG, etc.) These files can go back and forth without problems. Of course you need access to at least one Mac with Final Cut Studio to make this conversion. Or again, use the third party software solution that was mentioned before.
                                                                • 30. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                  >Since they DON"T work (you can be sure of that)

                                                                  You may be right, but I'm still NOT sure of that yet. I'm looking to hear from someone who has personally copied a native P2 clip directly onto their Windows machine and brought it unaltered into an AE comp with the DVCPro HD preset. First person accounts only are allowed here.

                                                                  What happened when you tried this?
                                                                  • 31. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                    Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                                                    You are a tough one, man :)

                                                                    Nothing happens. If it's a Quicktime DVCPRO HD file (as ingested by FCP), you get a missing codec error. If it's a P2/DVCPRO HD MXF file, you get a message about it not being a suitable format for import (and this after forcing AE to accept all files in the import dialog, because otherwise it won't even let you select the file).
                                                                    The later hopefully won't be the case anymore, now that PPro can ingest MXF files from P2 cards.
                                                                    • 32. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                      >If it's a P2/DVCPRO HD MXF file, you get a message about it not being a suitable format for import

                                                                      You did this personally? This is your own experience?

                                                                      >You are a tough one, man

                                                                      I drove my teachers nuts as a child. ;)
                                                                      • 33. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                        Level 1
                                                                        I just watch a video of adobe's press release for P2 support and Jim (something) said that the update is for PPRO and AE and it will ship in October.

                                                                        http://www.adobe.com/uk/events/ibc/index.html

                                                                        KMS
                                                                        • 34. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                          Level 1
                                                                          Did he mention when in October? Like a date?
                                                                          • 35. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                            Level 1
                                                                            I hope it comes sooner!

                                                                            I need to start editing with it no later than the 2nd October, this is so perfect yet not perfect timing as I am in the middle of a shoot with the HVX 200 and P2 support would be nice.

                                                                            If it comes too late in October then I will not be able to use it which would be a pity cause I won't be using the P2 until a few months down the line.

                                                                            I want to gauge the native editing performance versus Aspect HD (which I will buy if the update does not come soon). Although I do not have a problem with Aspect HD in my tests I started to enjoy it's benefits, but still native support is coming...

                                                                            Fingers crossed. :-)
                                                                            • 36. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                              (Jon_Sands)
                                                                              I applaud Jim for wanting solid proof and not accepting the assumption everybody else is without any experience at all.
                                                                              • 37. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                                Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                                                                Yes, even if I was publicly involved with Adobe when AE and PPro CS3 were released :)

                                                                                Now, if you allow me a joke.... How do we know that your car won't take ketchup as fuel, and that your TV doesn't work under water? So many interesting things to try.... let me know how it goes.
                                                                                • 38. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                                  Level 1
                                                                                  No specific date.

                                                                                  KMS
                                                                                  • 39. Re: P2 MXF Update
                                                                                    (Jon_Sands) Level 1
                                                                                    because water is a proven conduit for water, shorting out the circuitry. A cars engine needs a combustible fuel to run, and ketchup has been proven to not be combustible.

                                                                                    in after effects, you have a bunch of people assuming a format wont work, for no reason.
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