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> From my search of these forums, it would appear that CS3 is not really
> ready for HDV editing.
HDV is a delivery format. There are codecs designed to edit HD. So, I
prefer to convert HDV to Cineform CFHD and edit using a codec designed for
editing, but it is certainly possible to edit HDV in Premiere CS3 and many
users do just that.
So i'm inferring from your quote: "So, I prefer to convert HDV to Cineform CFHD and edit using a codec designed for editing", that CS3 really doesn't have or doesn't have a good enough codec "designed" for HD "editing", so your forced to use a third party codec.
Yes many users are editing HDV in Premiere CS3 but from the posts I keep reading - they are not enjoying it.
Some people do. They have some pretty powerful PCs though.
I can do it, but I too much prefer Cineform Aspect HD.
Check it out for yourself. You can edit HDV natively, and the Cineform trial is fully functional for 15 days.
I installed Cineform Aspect HD on my system. Now i'm waiting for from HDV/HD footage to play with.
Does Cineform Aspect HD limit the use of effects in the Premiere effects tab?
No. It just doesn't allow realtime viewing of them until you render.
Not a big problrm for me. Just check out their effects first.
If you want some m2t files to play with, I can forward some. You edit them natively or convert them to Cineform. Remember to use the correct project presets for each. You must use Cineform presets for Cineform. and Adobe HDV presets for native.
> so your forced to use a third party codec.
No, you are not forced to use a third party codec, but there are pros and
cons to consider. I purchased Aspect HD when it was the only way to edit
Canon XL H1 24f in Premiere, so I had little choice a year ago. I don't do
a lot of video editing, so perhaps I would just edit HDV directly today if I
did not own Aspect HD, but having spent the money and now that I own Aspect
HD, I don't try and edit HDV. In fact, I don't even capture using Premiere
as I prefer Aspect HDLink.
Also, I own a four processor system with a large fast RAID 0, so I could
probably edit either HDV or CFHD, but for those with older systems, it can
be a bit more tedious. CFHD uses less CPU than HDV but uses more disk
bandwidth. If you have a modern computer with good CPU performance and disk
bandwidth, you should be able to go either way.
I think the number one problem and the source of many complaints is the lack
of advanced planning and budgeting. Your research will avoid many
Your offer to supply me with sample clips would be most generous.
I don't know if you'll be able to attach them to an email since most ISP's block big file attachments. But just in case, my email address is "sales at nados . com"
Or if you prefer you can download them to my ftp server:
Let me know if you have any problems. The password is temporary for your access. I'll change it once the transfer is complete.
Quote: "I don't do a lot of video editing, Also, I own a four processor system with a large fast RAID 0".
Well Christopher... You've got a Lamborghini and no place to go, what a bummer! :) Just kidding! You must have a racing team to drive that Lamborghini.
Anyway... I've got an older dual 2ghz xeon raid 0 system for SD work. But for HD i'm planning on a new dual - core2 duo xeon based XP workstation using sata and possibly sas raid 0 drives. I just don't want to spend all that cash and run into problems right at the green light and the posts so far have not been too encouraging.
But your correct, research and planning is the key. I spent about 2 months researching and planning my old system and I'll probably do the same for the new one.
They can get pretty big, so unless you have a lot of room on your server, I usually use http://www.yousendit.com to transfer huge files.
I will look through my collection and you'll probably get some alligator footage and maybe some other animals. And maybe some fountains from Disney World's Epcot Center.
> Your offer to supply me with sample clips would be most generous.
There are also many sample clips posted for various cameras at dvinfo.net.
Yup... I got Lots of room, thats why i have a ftp server. Are you familiar with ftp and do you have an ftp client? If you don't have one, SmartFTP is good and free for personal use.
Thanks, i'll take a look. I only need two or three short clips.
I use Seagull FTP. I will start uploading now.
Just remember that I gave you completely unedited material. Right off the camera.
Change of plans. I need to share with other folks so I will use YouSendIt.
Thanks, I got two files on my ftp server; water_garden.m2t and water2.---.m2t.
I'll reset the password.
I canceled the upload a couple of times. Once so I could add the other two in one upload, and the other because I changed my mind so I only had to upload once. Remember, upload is a lot slower than download on a cable modem. So just erase those files.
You will get an email when the 300MB+ file is ready to retrieve from YouSendIt.
What! Upload is slow on cable modem, No Way! Comcast says they are faster than DSL and thats that! :)
How long do you think it will take to upload to YouSendit?
BTW, which Cineform preset do i use?
Heres a few:
Search dv info forum for dozens of hdv sample footage from several different cams / frame rates.
I've downloaded and imported the sample HD clips from both Steven and www.dvinfo.net.
They look real nice. I'll try editing them asap.
However, I've noticed two things...
1. The imported clips have to be rendered before playing. Is this normal?
2. when I start playing the clips the color goes a little more saturated and redish. When it stops playing, the color goes back to normal. Does anyone know whats going on?
im also wondering about number 1
Number 2 has to do with overlay settings on the video card. There should be instructions somewhere on Cineform's site on how to adjust that.
> Number 2 has to do with overlay settings on the video card. There should be instructions somewhere on Cineform's site on how to adjust that.
Take a look in the Cineform User Manual. It's there...
Secondly, here are some clips to download from my server:
Ignore the .WMVs, but download the M2Ts.
I get 4.6Mbps downloads, but only about 512K uploads. It is something you learn to live with.
If the clips need rendering then you are using the wrong preset. To use them in a Cineform preset you must convert them using HDLink first (comes with Cineform products). But they should work as is in a native HDV project.
CS3 has only really sorted SD editing. Anyone editing HD, should have at least a Quad Core system, and 8GB Ram.. and certainly nothing with VISTA.
I only had a Dual Core P4, with 4GB and would not even think about doing an HD edit.
Thus the purchase of the Dual Quad core MAC.... and FCP
I would suggest Adobe come up with what you need to strip out of XP (& VISTA), so you have what it takes to run the edting system, and clean out all that spyware and garbage that MS install in their software. I would also not have your edit PC connected to the internet, and run without any Virus/Firewall software.
Do all your updating on a firewalled PC, and import tested/clean files from that.
Thus freeing up as much of your system's resources for doing one thing:- EDITING.
I edit in native HDV with no problems and I am still just using PPro 2.0. In case you are interested here is the parts list for the computer I recently built for editing. I have it hooked up to my HDTV and am very pleased. About the only thing I might wish for is a larger screen. I have to run my resolution at 720p in order to see the computer screen well enough from the couch.
Here is the list of parts for my computer along with the Newegg part numbers:
23-126-033 KB&MS LOGITECH|920-000264 RT
22-136-131 HD 750G|WD 7K 16M SATA2 WD7500AAKS
17-341-011 PSU|S75CF 750W RT
14-130-071 VGA EVGA 640-P2-N821-AR 8800GTS R
13-127-030 MB ABIT IP35 Pro 775
21-103-203 FD 1.44MB|SAMSUG SFD321B/LBL1 %
33-315-041 WRLSS LAN EDIMAX|EW-7128G PCI RTL
20-148-076 MEM 1Gx2|CRUCIA BL2KIT12864AL804 R
19-115-027 CPU INTEL|C2Q Q6700 2.66G 65N 8M R
35-186-134 CPUCOOLER|ARCTIC P4|ACFZ7-PRO R
22-136-011 HD 150G|WD 10K 16M SATA WD1500AHFD
35-185-004 FAN SCYTHE|S-FLEX SFF21D(800rmp) RT
11-129-154 CASE ANTEC|P180 SIL RT
12-186-012 CABLE SYBA|SD-DVIHDMI-MM-6 RTL
27-106-072 DVD BURN LITE-ON|LH-20A1L-06 LS RT
Shipping and Handling $51.39
Amount Paid $2,530.22
Cs3 and HDV..? Nothing but trouble for me but I have noticed some improvement since I upgraded it with the 3.1 release. Unfortunately for me it stung me very badly costing me many thousands of dollars in lost revenue due to the severe bugs.
But I quite happily edit 1920x1080 uncompressed HDCAM all the time with CS3 so it certainly isn't a problem with my processing power.
I am currently editing a television series for Discovery channel that is all shot on HDV and I am forced to use PPro 2 for the first part of the series and moving it over to FCP for the rest of the series as I can't affort to loose another client due to Adobe's failings.
But I live in hope and believe I am seeing a change with Adobe's policies; I couldn't believe it when I read their software release notes with 3.1 where they admit they addressed some issues; or in laymans terms - fixed bugs! It was rather unfortunate that Adobe marketing made them release CS3 before it was ready. That sort of thing and the ensuing issues will cost them dearly in the months/years to come; and I now have gone into a total non-trust of ANYTHING Adobe - sad because I have been using their software for almost 15 years.
For now I will plough on with PPro 2 for HDV work and when I get a little time have a play with CS3 HDV settings and see if it is usable yet. Incidently I do have AspectHD but very rarely use it because of other issues.
>I am currently editing a television series for Discovery channel that is all shot on HDV
Will it be for Discovery HD? I thought that had a 25% limit on HDV material?
Yes it will be on discovery HD - its the nature of the series that makes it have to be shot on small camera's - so its being done on Z1's but series 2 will be done on XDCAM ex. We are waiting on FCP 6.2 which will have that format as native.
C. David Young,
Have you tried editing your HDV in CS3?
Have you tried Cineform Aspect HD on your CS3. From what i keep hearing, especally from Steven Gotz, it makes editing HD stuff a lot easier and painless in CS3. Also, Its a lot cheaper than buying a whole new computer and having to learn a whole new NLE.
Keep in mind that even FCP is not without its problems. I would hate for you to go to the Apple side and discover a whole new set of problems without first trying some viable pc based solutions.
However, i understand - business is business.
>its the nature of the series that makes it have to be shot on small camera's
That may be true, but will Discovery accept it? How did you get around the 25% HDV limit? (Or is this being done on spec, hoping they'll take it?)
> Have you tried Cineform Aspect HD on your CS3. From what i keep hearing, especally from Steven Gotz, it makes editing HD stuff a lot easier and painless in CS3.
I have and can say editing my HD (not HDV) is perfect. Yet to use HDV with Cineform.
> How did you get around the 25% HDV limit? (Or is this being done on spec, hoping they'll take it?)
Jim... it has been hard work but we submited a technical design and supplied some extensive HDCAM tests; primarily showing the results of never revisiting the mpeg format once injested into the system; but it is a special circumstance situation. So it is done on a pre-approval and the format of the show is very high end so why let a little contrast ratio/resolution get in the way of a great story!
It also has a lot to do with having a long track record of doing programs for DCI over the last 8 years.
> Keep in mind that even FCP is not without its problems
Nelson... yes FCP does have its problems but the simple truth is that FCP IN AIMED at program productions far more than anything Adobe has. I find it inconceivable that Adobe can make such 'program production' oriented programs such as After Effects and Photoshop and let something like Premiere finish off at the wedding/event production and not take it that little step further. I do have FCP studio 2 and use it alot; it is not that much different than Premiere but they DO cater for us program producers. This is very evident by the people who visit the FCP forums - and more importantly in the freelance market; many more people will have FCP on their resume than Premiere and in a lot of cases people would rather not even mention Premiere. Its a shame that CS3 has gone off the rails; I thought it was heading in the right direction with PPro2 but cost cutting (outsourcing IT) and marketing has brought it back to a 'pre 5.1' format. Going to India to get cheap source code isn't the answer when the requirement is far more advanced.
All the above is my own opinion but believe me, it is a well educated opinion.
> Cs3 and HDV..? Nothing but trouble for me but I have noticed some improvement since I upgraded it with the 3.1 release. Unfortunately for me it stung me very badly costing me many thousands of dollars in lost revenue due to the severe bugs.
>But I quite happily edit 1920x1080 uncompressed HDCAM all the time with CS3 so it certainly isn't a problem with my processing power.
This was similar to my experiences with CS3. HDV is very buggy and cost me a few weeks of time trying to deal with the plethora of problems. These are problems that don't exist in PPro 2.0, which I found fairly stable with HDV.
Rendering with CS3 (if you can get to that point in your workflow using HDV), is alot faster than PPro 2.0 and the quality of output from AME is a lot better.
I haven't heard any complaints with Cineform and CS3, so I think your best bet with PPro and HDV is either use PPro 2.0 + HDV or CS3 + Cineform.
I don't edit HDCAM, but I can edit uncompressed 10-bit 1920x1080 HD with no problems at all using CS3 (actually I have very little problems with any format I've tried besides HDV).
I do agree too in that i expected a lot more from adobe in going from CS2 to CS3. I was really excited when CS2 came out - wow! I was just imagining what CS3 would be like when it came out - what a disappointment. They take 3 steps forward and 5 steps backward.
It amazes me when time and time again when i see companies shoot themselves in the foot by allowing the bean counters, marketing departments or some highly paided bone head CEO direct the future and quality of their products into the ground.
Although i have worked on apples before, i have always been afraid to buy one for fear the with only 3% of the market, they would go belly up and leave me with an orphan.
I have no experience with FCP. What features in general would you consider "Program Production"?
>So it is done on a pre-approval
Thanks for the info.
Apple is now at 8% market share.
> Jeron - "I don't edit HDCAM, but I can edit uncompressed 10-bit 1920x1080 HD with no problems at all using CS3."
Uncompressed 10-bit 1920x1080 IS what HDCAM is. We export that directly from the timeline to our HDCAM deck (using a Multibridge Extreme)
> Nelson - "What features in general would you consider "Program Production"?"
Very basic features like recognition of timecode breaks (jumps) in source material and the ability to export OMF audio for split sound post and the ability to use 3rd party control surfaces; all these are standard in FCP and they alone force me to use FCP more and more.
I remember editing "Australia's Most Wanted" on Premiere 4; although it was off line editing we use to get all our edit approvals done prior to going into our online linear suite. Premiere would spit out an accurate EDL and all was sweet. But they were simple days; production quality has leaped through the roof since then placing higher demands on the equipment and software to perform those tasks. I am sure that having CS3 way back then would have been fantastic! But its an never ending circle; we want more then the manufacturers cater for it then we want more again etc etc. But its seeing what the competition can do is what makes us think that what CS3 can do is not so great. But add to that the stability differences between the PC platform and the Mac platform doesn't help Adobes cause. I would be interested in hearing if CS3 is any more stable on the Mac; especially those 'out of memory' issues.
But before the defenders of PC's attack - yes FCP crashes, very rarely but I have had my share. And speaking of share I think you will find the Mac market share will start to increase with the release of Leopard due to the fact that it allows Vista to instal co-resident (intel only Macs). This will finally allow for our favourite PC programs to run on a Mac box without any serious processing overheads.
Jim - DCI have a "global vendor guide" that detail all of the approved cameras for use in their productions. The HDV format is not approved, the XDCAM falls under the "Silver" level but their premium HD Channels only accepts "Gold" level camera's.
>Uncompressed 10-bit 1920x1080 IS what HDCAM is.
Technically, that's HDCAM SR. HDCAM is DCT compressed at 3:1 and is limited to 1440 x 1080.
>the XDCAM falls under the "Silver" level but their premium HD Channels only accepts "Gold" level camera's.
That's a little surprising, I admit.
> But before the defenders of PC's attack - yes FCP crashes, very rarely but I have had my share.
Yeah they all do. I recorded a voice over in a studio yesterday and Pro Tools crashed all the time. But it did not matter. :-)
I got the VO and all was good.
Just for the record, my experience with HDV in CS3 hasn't been without some issues, but it's been MUCH better than HDV on Avid Xpress HD...which was glitchy beyond comprehension with HDV.