28 Replies Latest reply on Mar 26, 2009 7:10 PM by Jim_Simon

    Mini Dv and HDV

      Hi Everyone, pretty simple question i think, just wondering if its alright to edit both mini dv (standard def) and HDV footage in the one project? using premiere cs3

      thanks very much

      graham
        • 1. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          No. One or the other.

          CS4 is the first version that will allow this.
          • 2. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
            Colin Brougham Level 6
            Yes. You can do both.

            While CS3 will not allow you to create one project that contains sequences to accommodate both of these types of media in realtime, you can create one sequence and edit both types of media into that. Typically, you'd use a project/sequence that is the lowest common denominator of your source types--in your case, it would be a DV project. From there, you can either scale the HD(V) assets down to fit the DV frame, or move the HD(V) clips around to reframe the part you want to see. This will work just fine if your clips' timebases are the same (ie. 60i); if they're different, you may encounter some issues.
            • 3. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
              Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP
              Colin is right, you can edit both on the same timeline.
              If you edit SD in a HDV project you can consider using Magic Bullet Instant HD up-convert the SD footage.
              • 4. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                shooternz Level 6
                I regularly mix media into timelines very successfully.

                I also find Instant HD a valuable tool when up rezzing SD but usually I need to make a Custom Setting to make it "work" properly because of the PAR.

                BTW - Graham...Its real simple and good practise to do a little test for your self when questions like yours arise.
                • 5. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                  Bill Seper Level 1
                  Has anybody tried using SD footage that was upconverted to HD via Windows Media Encoder and bringing that into CS3 or CS4? I don't have a new enough version of Premiere to handle HDV or I'd try it myself. The SD files that I've upconverted with WME look really good to me though, so for future referrence I was just wondering how well Premiere worked with it.
                  • 6. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                    shooternz Level 6
                    The only way to do that Charles would be to "blow it up" (ie motion/scale) in a PPro timeline and export it via AME.

                    A quality hit.
                    • 7. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                      SFL46 Level 3
                      Boris FX released a pluggin designed to upscale SD to HDV. It uses a scaling algorithm combined with a sharpening algorithm. I've used this and find it useful, if the source SD footage has reasonable quality. If its poor to start, it will be poor when you're done.
                      • 8. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                        Bill Seper Level 1
                        "The only way to do that Charles would be to "blow it up" (ie motion/scale) in a PPro timeline and export it via AME."

                        But if I've already up-converted with WME, why would it need to be blown up again in Premiere? Or am I just not thinking of something?
                        • 9. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                          Bill Seper Level 1
                          "Boris FX released a pluggin designed to upscale SD to HDV."

                          Yeah, I've looked at that, and their uprez filter looks really good. Unfortunately it's a plugin for AE, so I have to pay a grand to get AE before I can use Boris' $99 product. Not cool for us guys that have little or no use for AE.
                          • 10. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                            shooternz Level 6
                            >But if I've already up-converted with WME, why would it need to be blown up again in Premiere? Or am I just not thinking of something?

                            How do you up convert in WME? ie. Are you just changing the output setting?

                            Up rezzing requires a scaling algorithm combined with a sharpening algorithm that I doubt WME has. Premiere and AEFX dont have them so hence the need for a plugin that does.
                            • 11. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                              Bill Seper Level 1
                              Have you tried up-converting with WME? I just started messing around with doing that the past week, and the results have been quite good. I don't know what they're doing, but it isn't bad at all. Of course I've only watched the results on a 17" computer screen and not a a large hi-def TV yet, but it looks pretty good from where I'm sitting. Maybe if I saw it on the latter I'd be less than thrilled. I don't own an HD TV though, so I have no way of testing it.

                              BTW, does anyone know why companies saddle themselves to specific NLEs sometimes. For instance, I think Magic Bullet only works as a plug-in for AE. Can I take it they must be making some money from Adobe for being exclusive with them or something?
                              • 12. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                Many Magic Bullet effects work fine in After Effects, Premiere, Final Cut Pro, Avid, Edius, and I think some even work with Vegas. Quite a few plug-ins are not NLE specific.

                                Those that are AE specific are so for technical reasons.
                                • 13. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                  Bill Seper Level 1
                                  But don't you have to buy Magic Bullet for a specific NLE or something? I mean, it's not available as a stand alone app is it?
                                  • 14. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                    shooternz Level 6
                                    >Have you tried up-converting with WME?

                                    No... because I know that all it will do is "blow up" the frame.

                                    It may look like an HD frame but it is still SD blown up.

                                    "you can not turn chicken manure into chicken pie"
                                    • 15. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                      You do have to specify the host app when you buy, Charles. They are plug-ins, after all. But there's usually a pretty good choice of host apps to use them in.
                                      • 16. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                        Bill Seper Level 1
                                        "It may look like an HD frame but it is still SD blown up."

                                        Yeah, I'm certain it is now. I just did a comparison between a frame from a WME upconvert and one from the standard def version that I blew up with Ulead Photo Impact, and in fact the Ulead version is slightly better I think.
                                        • 17. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                          shooternz Level 6
                                          Download a trial version of Instant HD (Red Giant) and do the same test.
                                          • 18. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                            Bill Seper Level 1
                                            We all know there are apps that interpolate during upconversion. I was just wondering whether or not WME was doing that as well.
                                            • 19. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                              SFL46 Level 3
                                              "Yeah, I've looked at that, and their uprez filter looks really good. Unfortunately it's a plugin for AE, so I have to pay a grand to get AE before I can use Boris' $99 product. Not cool for us guys that have little or no use for AE."

                                              When I purchased uprez, I purchased it for PP CS3 and I was able to install and use it in CS3. I didn't add AE until I subsequently upgraded to PP CS4
                                              • 20. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                Bill Seper Level 1
                                                That's good. I do wish though that these software venders would just make their products as stand alone software. I don't understand why they so often make plugins so that they only work with specific products made by others. I guess there's a method to the madness, but I don't know enough about programming, or business for that matter, to understand it all. In the audio world, most plugins work with any recording app as long as it accepts DirectX or VST. I don't get why video plugin/filters aren't like that very often.
                                                • 21. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                  >I don't understand why they so often make plugins so that they only work with specific products made by others.

                                                  Because very often the software is an 'effect'. And most people use such things inside an NLE.

                                                  >I don't get why video plugin/filters aren't like that very often.

                                                  There is no across-the-board standard for video effects.
                                                  • 22. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                    Bill Seper Level 1
                                                    "There is no across-the-board standard for video effects."

                                                    Well there ya go. I figured there had to be a logical explanation.
                                                    • 23. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                      the_wine_snob Level 9
                                                      Actually, I am a fan of the plug-in technology. I hate having to pay for engines that I already have in other programs. I also like to be able to keep my main program open and working, and then use stand-alones only where necessary. Some of my plug-in vendors do offer a stand-alone version, but I nearly always go plug-in.

                                                      Now, if only SmartSound would incorporate SonicFire Pro 5 into a plug-in for Premiere Pro!

                                                      Hunt
                                                      • 24. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                        SFL46 Level 3
                                                        Actually, many of the Boris packages--graffiti, Red, FX, work as a pluggin, but also ship with a standalone program that serves as a GUI to the pluggin. These allow one to develop and debug and save a complex animated effect without the CPU overhead of the NLE. One then opens the effect within the NLE for rendering.
                                                        • 25. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                          >if only SmartSound would incorporate SonicFire Pro 5 into a plug-in for Premiere Pro!

                                                          Yeeees!
                                                          • 26. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                            Bill Seper Level 1
                                                            "Some of my plug-in vendors do offer a stand-alone version, but I nearly always go plug-in."

                                                            What I would like though is for there to be some kind of standard way of making plug-ins so that they would work with any NLE, the same way DirectX and VST work with any multi-track/wave editor audio app. I think it must be possible to do something like this because DeBug Mode's Wax and WinMorph will both work as stand alone apps and also with a wide number of NLEs. Here's what they say about Wax:

                                                            Wax can create 2D & 3D special effects and can work in two modes - as a standalone application which would appeal for home users/beginners, and as a "plug-in" to video editors/NLEs which would be more useful for professional editors. Currently Wax can work as a plug-in with Sony Vegas®, Pure Motion EditStudio and Adobe Premiere® and work for integrating with various other NLEs is in progress.

                                                            Now you don't have to download a specific version Wax to make it work with either Vegas, Premiere, or EditStudio. There is only one version of Wax to download, and it will work with all of these. So I'm thinking it must not be all that difficult to come up with some way of making any given plug-in work with just about any NLE. Admittedly I'm not a programmer and don't know much about how they work their magic.
                                                            • 27. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                              SFL46 Level 3
                                                              Cahrles Seper's conclusion may not be correct. I know that the Boris install program looks for a instance of a file that is unique to a particular NLE and then installs the correct pluggin for that NLE. This general occurs without any notice to the user.

                                                              In theory you are correct--it could be done if everyone agreed to the same standards. But the situation is somewhat more complex for video than audio given the wide variety of resolutions, pixel ratioes, color depths, frame rates, NTSC/PAL, DV/HDV/AVCHD, etc, etc. The NLE has to tell the pluggin what the format of the clip is if the pluggin is to work nicely with the clips to which the effect is applied. Each NLE has its own pluggin interface architecture. But, remember that this is a competetive business, why would ADOBE want to make it easier for Boris, when Adobe AE competes with Boris.
                                                              • 28. Re: Mini Dv and HDV
                                                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                >There is only one version of Wax to download, and it will work with all of these.

                                                                As Steve suggests, that may be simply because the installer carries all versions with it.