22 Replies Latest reply on Nov 20, 2007 5:40 AM by (Dmitriy_Nikitin)

    VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode

      Hi,
      Sometimes I use the following workflow: import the files compressed with VFW (Video for Windows) codec into Premiere, then preview and export them using the same VFW codec. During this procedure Premiere should not recompress the clips to which the effects are not applied. This works fine for me in Premiere 1.5, but in Premiere 2.0 and 3.0 these clips are always recompressed.

      I tried several VFW codecs (Huffyuv, Morgan M-JPEG, Cinepak, Indeo) and the same happens for all of them. The only case, when it works for me as it should in a Desktop mode, are Uncompressed 8-bit/10-bit File Format use cases.

      What I actually do:
      Make a custom preset with Editing mode set to Desktop and the compressor set to some VFW codec.
      Import the material which is compressed with this VFW codec (all the video parameters match the project settings).
      When the clip is placed on the timeline the red line appears above the clip (this seems to be not correct). After performing a preview the clip gets rendered and the line above it changes to green.
      To ensure that the clip settings match the project settings I get the rendered preview file from the Adobe Premiere Preview Files folder and place it on the timeline. The red line above the already rendered clip appears again and the clip is rendered once more time (the problem persists).

      So, I would like to ask is it possible to use the VFW codec in a Desktop mode without a full recompression during preview/export, or may be its a problem of my own single configuration?
        • 1. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
          Level 1
          I think it is more of a case of other parameters that need to match, like audio properties, frame size and so on.

          I stand to be corrected.

          Why is it important for you to not see the red line?
          • 2. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
            Level 1
            Thank you for the reply.
            May be Im wrong but the red line states, that the clip does not conform to project settings. Means, when encoding this material, Premiere will recompress it. What I need is just so Premiere will not recompress parts of the material, which are not affected by the effects.

            Concerning the parameters, which may be different: even if I was wrong with the source material parameters, when Premiere makes a preview file it creates it using exactly the project parameters. As I wrote, Ive got this file, generated by Premiere, from the Premiere temp folder and added it to the timeline. But this file, which was conformed to project parameters by Premiere itself, is also shown with the red line above it, but it should not (as it seems to me).
            • 3. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              Where are you getting your source material? Premiere is primarily a DV editor, and most other types of video will end up being rendered at some point.
              • 4. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                Level 1
                The workflow is a little bit complex. I have the DV and Analog sources, which are captured and then processed in VirtualDub and then in turn in AfterEffects. I need then to rearrange the video parts in Premiere. Then I need to render the timeline (or its parts) and go to AfterEffects and then back etc. In this process I cant use the DV codec since it provides recompression artifacts during several generations, but also I cant use the uncompressed data since Im limited to disk space and because of that I need to use other codecs.

                As far as I understand, Premiere has the optimized mode for editing the DV, but also third party plug-ins, like Matrox hardware acceleration, or Cineform software acceleration are working in Premiere with their own codecs. Premiere decompresses the supplied codec, adds effects and then compresses the data with the supplied codec. I think, it does not matter, will it be DV, MPEG-2 (current Premiere HDV solution) or some VFW codec.
                • 5. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  OK.

                  What processing is done in VirtualDub?
                  • 6. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                    Level 1
                    Ok, it depends on the source material from time to time I use chroma noise reduction, levels, deshaker, reverse field dominance, field swap, crop, resize or just conversion to another codec.
                    • 7. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      Alright.

                      I see some problems with the workflow. Some of the VirtualDub processing should be OK, but some of it might be what's messing you up. Reversing field dominance and field swap in particular.

                      It may be better to always convert to a DV codec in VirtualDub. Don't use any other codecs. Trying that, see if you still need the field processing, or if using the DV codec only takes care of the field issues. Don't worry about DV compression. It's very mild, and there's a second step to my suggestion that will also help.

                      Do a test with some current analog source and report the results.
                      • 8. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                        Level 1
                        Thank you for the suggestions.

                        For me it seems everything is ok with these filters. I will explain.
                        In this workflow to simplify my further work I make all the different received materials to satisfy the parameters which are similar to DV (25 frames, 720x576, aspect ratio 1.067, lower field first). I am using to recompress them with different codec just because it does not satisfy me in this workflow (Ive made tests to see what happens with DV after several generations, and the obtained result was not good enough for me).

                        Some of the analog sources I receive have an incorrect setting of field dominance (upper field is located in the lower and vice versa). For that purpose I am using the field swap (which just places the fields to their correct locations).
                        The other filter (reverse field dominance) helps, when I get the material, which was captured with the upper-field first setting. I use this filter to make the material lower field first.

                        Its ok to convert all the analog to DV as you propose and the quality of the result during first compression will be fine. But then, when I will need to pass and process parts of the materials between Premiere, AfterEffects and VirtualDub I will get problems with the resulting quality if during these transformations I will continue using DV as a codec.
                        • 9. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                          Ruud Blauw Level 1
                          >(I’ve made tests to see what happens with DV after several generations, and the obtained result was not good enough for me).

                          With a normal workflow there is no need for several generations. And if you are not satisfied with the DV results you should use a lossless compression like Huffyuv or Lagarith and certainly not something hideous like Cinepak or Indeo.
                          • 10. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                            Level 1
                            Thank you.
                            As I wrote in my very first question, Ive used Cinepak and Indeo just to test that Premiere 3.0 does not operate properly in Desktop mode with different VFW codecs, and sure I do not use these codecs for compression actually.

                            To make it clear: the workflow I use is not related with my question (this all works fine in Premiere 1.5), but in order to switch to 3.0 I am asking for assistance in resolving of the issue I have with this product version.
                            The issue: Premiere 3.0 has the Desktop editing mode, where I can select any VFW codec to use for editing on the Video Rendering tab (for ex. lossless Huffyuv), but I get the red line above the clip, which was compressed with this codec (but, as I understand, I should not).

                            I think there are at least two cases here:
                            1) Other users of Premiere 3.0 do not see a red line above the VFW clip in Desktop mode. Then it is a problem of my single configuration.
                            2) Other users do see a red line. Then this could be either a product bug or a need of some kind of special preparation of the VFW compressed files for Premiere 3.0
                            Any idea would be appreciated.
                            • 11. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                              >when I will need to pass and process parts of the materials between Premiere, AfterEffects and VirtualDub I will get problems with the resulting quality

                              That's the part I wanted you not to worry about. I'm not done making suggestions on how to improve the work flow so you don't get that red line.

                              So, once you have all the weird formats converted in VirtualDub to a DV file, what do you want to do to it next?
                              • 12. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                Level 1
                                > once you have all the weird formats converted in VirtualDub to a DV file, what do you want to do to it next?

                                Thank you, Jim. I will not post this info here, cause as I wrote in my previous post, this is just not the point of my question, but Ive sent you this info in e-mail (it would be great if youll give me a hint).
                                • 13. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                  Dmitry,

                                  I'm posting the workflow here, as it is directly related to why you're having to render.

                                  >1.) I add the prepared files into Premiere

                                  >2.) I do the editing

                                  >3.) Export parts of the timeline: to VirtualDub in order to stabilize them, in AfterEffects to produce special effects and make compositions.

                                  >4.) I get the material back to Premiere, tune the colors, and make the final composition

                                  >5.) Now I go to AE and add the Magic Bullet Suite Looks, where it's needed and export.

                                  >6.) After looking on the project I may need to return to point 2 once again to change some parts of already rendered project.

                                  >7.) After all seems to be ok, if I need a progressive project, I will use Magic Bullet suite in AE to deinterlace the movie.

                                  >8.) And lastly, I will export it to DVD using Procoder and Sonic Scenarist.

                                  By changing things around a little bit, there should be no reason you can't work in DV and render only once, at the end when you're finished.

                                  Step 1. Make sure to use a DV preset.

                                  Step 2. No problems.

                                  Step 3. Either stabilize your clips in VirtualDub during their first pass (when you make then DV clips), or use After Effects to stabilize them (which will probably do a better job anyway). When going to AE, make sure to use Dynamic Link, so no rendering needs to be done.

                                  Step 4. Using DL, there'll be no need to render out of AE. So just continue with the editing as normal.

                                  Step 5. Again, use DL to add the required effects, that way no rendering. Combine step 7 here.

                                  Step 6. This one's out of order. Make it step 9.

                                  Step 8. This will be the only and only time you need to render.

                                  Step 9. Review the project on a real TV and DVD player. Make notes. Go back and fix what needs fixing. Repeat steps 8 and 9 until satisfied.
                                  • 14. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                    Level 1
                                    Thank you, Jim. Your suggestion is based on the idea, that there is no need to recompress the original source files during the project workflow before the final project deployment, right? I just want to remind, that I think, this discussion does not lead to resolve the point of my original question, but here are my comments:

                                    > Either stabilize your clips in VirtualDub during their first pass (when you make then DV clips),

                                    I need to stabilize just the selective parts of the material which actually will be used in the project (not the whole source since it is unneeded, lossy and time consuming procedure), and sometimes different presets are used for different parts. Which these parts are, I will know only after editing with Premiere. In Vdub during material preparation I only tune fields, luma/levels, etc. issues without thoroughly watching the source material.

                                    > use After Effects to stabilize them (which will probably do a better job anyway).

                                    I like and often use the Track motion in AE, but not the Stabilize motion function, the Vdubs one suit me better.

                                    > use Dynamic Link, so no rendering needs to be done.

                                    I think its a cool feature, obviously, by using the DL you have the ability to quickly change some parameters in both Premiere and AE at any time and this is the plus. I was not able to test it (my version is not Production Premium), but any such a feature has its drawbacks. Just a one of them from the Premiere help files:
                                    > After Effects renders the linked composition on a frame by frame basis during playback in the target application If youre working with complex source compositions and experiencing playback delays, you can take the composition offline or disable a linked clip to temporarily stop referencing a dynamically linked composition, or render the composition and replace the dynamically linked composition with the rendered file.

                                    Many of the work I do in AE are time consuming operations. When I work with a huge number of effects, layers and nested compositions in AE I like to pre-render compositions to optimize the work inside AE and when I finish the composition in AE for me is better to render it. When AE compositions are complex (actually they are) and may render several hours, my computer and me may not survive with this.

                                    There are other cross-application workflows available between AE and Premiere, like a copy/paste and project import, but they have limitations about which I do not want to care of mostly, while editing. Nevertheless, I use these workflows in simple cases (mainly when getting the materials from Premiere to AE).

                                    I agree, that it is possible to avoid several generations by using current cross-application workflow. But with this workflow I will:

                                    1) Loose a lot of time on time consuming operations.

                                    2) Need to take care about limitations of Premiere/AE interaction.

                                    3) Be limited to use the Premiere & AE without my preferable types of external processing, which do not support the DL (including, but not limited to, a Vdub stabilization function).

                                    To summarize, I prefer using Premiere for real-time editing without this workflow.

                                    By the way (just back to my original question): could you, please, make the following few steps in your Premiere CS3, this may help:

                                    1) In Premiere, create a new preset based on one of the DV presets. On the Custom settings set General -> Editing Mode to Desktop, on Video Rendering set the file format to Video for Windows and the Compressor to Uncompressed UYVY 422 8bit.

                                    2) Import some small DV clip and place it on the timeline. You should see a
                                    i red line
                                    above it.

                                    3) Now, Render work area. The line above the clip changes to
                                    i green.

                                    4) Now, in the filesystem, locate the generated preview file Adobe Premiere Pro Preview files/project_name.PRV/Rendered -, make a copy of it and place this copy on the timeline. You will see a
                                    i red line
                                    above it.

                                    5) Now, go to Project/Project Settings/VideoRendering and change the File format from Video for Windows to Uncompressed 8-bit(4:2:2 YUV) and confirm. Now you should not see
                                    i any line
                                    above the file copied from the Preview folder.

                                    Does the line behavior changes exactly the same way in your application?

                                    Thank's for your help.
                                    • 15. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                      >To summarize, I prefer using Premiere for real-time editing without this workflow.

                                      Then I'm afraid you're stuck with rendering in Premiere, or buying bigger hard drives.
                                      • 16. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                        Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                        A red line is more of an indicator of whether or not a project could go out to tape.

                                        A Desktop project can't go out to tape, so there will always be a red line over Desktop project footage, even if the source clip's properties and the project settings match.

                                        Theoretically, you should see no difference in playback performance between a "red line" clip that matches the Desktop project settings and has no effects or transitions applied, and a rendered "green line" preview of the same clip. Is this the case for you? That's how it works on my system.
                                        • 17. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                          Level 1
                                          Thank you.

                                          > A red line is more of an indicator of whether or not a project could go out to tape.

                                          I think, not exactly. When Premiere does not show the red line above the clip, it tells, that it can render/play back this clip at the projects full frame rate in the Program Monitor. This logic does not depend will be the External Device (like tape recorder) used, an overlay surface (TV or second monitor), or just no other output at all.

                                          And the requirements for Premiere to not to show the red line seems to be as follows:

                                          1) The source conforms to Project settings.

                                          2) The source is compressed with the codec, specified as a Video Rendering->Previews codec.

                                          3) The source was not altered by the effects or settings (except realtime effects, available in third party editing modes).

                                          > A Desktop project can't go out to tape, so there will always be a red line over Desktop project footage, even if the source clip's properties and the project settings match.

                                          Yes, it cant go to tape, but the logic of red line works fine, when in Desktop mode I will use the Uncompressed 8-bit (4:2:2 YUV) File format for Preview.
                                          i This logic does not work for me, when the Video for windows File format is used as a Preview format.

                                          > Theoretically, you should see no difference in playback performance between a "red line" clip that matches the Desktop project settings and has no effects or transitions applied, and a rendered "green line" preview of the same clip.

                                          Agree, there will be no difference in playback performance in this situation. Even, when we will add some effects to the clip, there may be no difference, cause Premiere renders on the fly and the performance just depends on the system horsepower and Automatic/Draft/High quality setting. We may just disable rendering previews by using the appropriate button and can forget about the red line at all.

                                          But the red line problem arises, when I need to use the rendering of previews functionality in order to see a smooth playback of parts with
                                          i slow
                                          effects in Highest Quality mode. When I will Render work area of the timeline the preview files for
                                          i all
                                          clips will be generated, which are covered by the work area bar, even when no effects where applied to them. This is useless additional time to render and unacceptable additional space occupied by the preview files.

                                          > Is this the case for you? That's how it works on my system.

                                          Do I understand it right, youre also getting the red line on the project compatible material in Desktop mode?
                                          • 18. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                                            My thought is that item number 2 above is incorrect.
                                            • 19. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                              Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                              >Do I understand it right, youre also getting the red line on the project compatible material in Desktop mode?

                                              You understand correctly.

                                              >The source was not altered by the effects or settings (except real time effects, available in third party editing modes).

                                              This may be what is different on our systems. I have no 3rd-party editing modes because I don't have any 3rd-party hardware. What additional hardware do you have?

                                              With a 3rd-party editing mode, everything I said earlier is subject to change, because Premiere no longer exclusively controls playback and export.
                                              • 20. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                                Level 1
                                                > My thought is that item number 2 above is incorrect.

                                                I could be wrong, but Ive made this conclusion since in editing modes, where there is no red line problem, this works in such a way for me.

                                                > This may be what is different on our systems. I have no 3rd-party editing modes because I don't have any 3rd-party hardware. What additional hardware do you have? With a 3rd-party editing mode, everything I said earlier is subject to change, because Premiere no longer exclusively controls playback and export.

                                                Its ok, because the point of my question is related to Desktop mode and a VFW preview format only. I just mentioned a third party modes, trying to list all the possible situations of red line behavior, but these modes are not related to the question (only for reference, the Cineform Aspect HD editing mode has filters (like Color Balance), which, when applied, do not produce a red line above the clip)
                                                • 21. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                                  * A Desktop project can't go out to tape, so there will always be a red
                                                  * line over Desktop project footage, even if the source clip's
                                                  * properties and the project settings match.

                                                  Not quite. I am wrestling with same type of problem than the originator of this thread.

                                                  My computer is capable of handling uncompressed 10-bit YUV422 HD-files. When I try to edit in Desktop mode having selected Uncompressed 10-bit (YUV4:2:2) as the File format, some files I import or render show the red line, others don't. But more clips show the red line than don't, and I am scratching my head as to what causes it.

                                                  When I compare the properties of 2 clips, other showing red line and the other not showing, they give exactly the same results. The properties are actually identical. At this point I can only suspect a bug in the handling of the uncompressed 10-bit YUV files. The computer is a standard setup with no additional videohardware or codecs.

                                                  Here is the situation illustrated:

                                                  http://www.eurozoom.net/tiedostot/timeline.jpg
                                                  http://www.eurozoom.net/tiedostot/properties.jpg

                                                  Needless to mention clip without the red line plays without a hitch and the one with the red line doesn't play in real-time.
                                                  • 22. Re: VFW clips always render in Desktop Mode
                                                    Level 1
                                                    Hello, Aki

                                                    May be this will help you for resolving the Uncompressed mode issue. If all your source setting match the project setting, then check, is the XMP record with a correct field order present in the file you are importing/editing. This record is located in the bottom of the video file in an XML form. The important element of the record is:
                                                             It's value should match your source/project settings: Lower Field, Upper field or Progressive.
                                                    The XMP record for the file could be added/edited by the use of Adobe Bridge.