32 Replies Latest reply on Oct 26, 2007 9:48 AM by (Howard_Cromwell)

    Welcome Back Old Friend

    Gary Andrew Level 1
      Thank God that Adobe has scrapped the totally unusable "New" forum experiment. I for one am so glad to see the forum usable again. What a nightmare it has been for us users (and I would guess for Adobe as well). I sincerely hope that we have seen the end of forum tinkering!! LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE!!
        • 1. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
          Level 1
          If it ain't broke, don't fix it. On the other hand, how do you know they've given up on that failed experiment?
          • 2. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
            John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP
            They have NOT given up... but will be "measured" in the future

            Read http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.3bca26da/0?14@@
            • 3. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
              Level 1
              > They have NOT given up... but will be "measured" in the future

              They need to write a comprehensive test plan. And then follow it.

              Best,
              Christopher
              • 4. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                shooternz Level 6
                Ive got "me" back. What a relief.

                Now for - P2 import. Cant wait and that must be real close now. (Seen the clip and it looks very exciting)
                • 5. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                  akribie Level 2
                  I, too, am pleased to have got my old identity back at last. Didn't get a response to my email asking why I couldn't get in with the new forum, though.

                  The new layout was also much less useful to me, at least. I welcome the return to the 'old' version.

                  If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Especially if the fix breaks it!

                  This episode has not been a great advert for the QA system in a leading software house. Customer confidence is still a vital factor for marketing even if you are a world leader (by volume, anyway).
                  • 6. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                    Level 1
                    Yay!

                    Please do not touch these forums again. They are perfect the way they are now.

                    Thanks!
                    • 7. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                      Animotion.nl Adobe Community Professional
                      I'd like RSS to work in the forums. Hope they will re-implement that in the measured approach.

                      Joost
                      • 8. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                        John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                        If you want to have your voice heard about the forum, you need to go to a different place

                        http://forum.adobe.com/.ee6b30e/
                        • 9. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                          Jeron Coolman Level 1
                          >If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Especially if the fix breaks it!

                          >This episode has not been a great advert for the QA system in a leading software house. Customer confidence is still a vital factor for marketing even if you are a world leader (by volume, anyway).

                          Heh, heh, I like the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." philosophy, too bad they didn't follow it with PPro and native HDV. PPro 2.0 worked with HDV on my machines and CS3 is now barely usable. Maybe all of the Adobe teams should follow the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." philosophy ;)
                          • 10. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                            Level 1
                            > HDV on my machines and CS3 is now barely usable.

                            Are you trying to edit HDV using a codec designed for delivery or a codec
                            designed for editing?

                            Best,
                            Christopher
                            • 11. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                              Curt Wrigley Level 4
                              > Are you trying to edit HDV using a codec designed for delivery or a codec designed for editing?

                              If he is using native PPRO CS3; then hes using hdv. Which is the complaint. Adobe's native hdv editing capability is rather disappointing. soon to be 2 releases behind fcp in offering a good hdv editing solution natively.
                              • 12. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                Level 1
                                > Adobe's native hdv editing capability is rather disappointing.

                                If budgets permit, I recommend converting HDV (an HD delivery format) to
                                Cineform Aspect CFHD (an HD editing format). CFHD works well for me using
                                PPro CS3.

                                Best,
                                Christopher
                                • 13. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                  Curt Wrigley Level 4
                                  > If budgets permit, I recommend converting HDV (an HD delivery format) to Cineform Aspect CFHD (an HD editing format). CFHD works well for me using PPro CS3.

                                  That is the complaint. PPRO users have to cobble together 3rd party solutions (that cost a lot of money) to have what competitors deliver out of the box.
                                  • 14. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                    Level 1
                                    > That is the complaint. PPRO users have to cobble together 3rd party
                                    > solutions (that cost a lot of money)

                                    I understand the issue regarding finite budgets, but I don't agree with
                                    "cobble together". If Cineform Aspect HD was bundled with PPro CS3, no one
                                    would be complaining that it's a 3rd party solution. In other words, it's
                                    all about money, not about the 3rd party issue.

                                    Best,
                                    Christopher
                                    • 15. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                      Curt Wrigley Level 4
                                      Not really true. Cineform is a great product, but using their presets enable great rt effects of theirs but many of the native ppro features become almost useless.

                                      On the other hand, apple's implementation in fcp provides a quality intermediate codec (prores)that is supported natively. PPRO/Cineform is a cobbled together solution. Cineform can decide at any time to stop supporting ppro, and nay release by adobe can instantly break the cineform plugins..

                                      Curt
                                      • 16. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                                        I've been out of the loop for a while, but getting this post back on track, I too am very grateful for the return of the "fully functional, nothing wrong with them" old Forums.
                                        • 17. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                          Level 1
                                          > using their presets enable great rt effects of theirs but many of the
                                          > native ppro features become almost useless.

                                          Good point. The Cineform effects work fine but are too limited in number.

                                          Best,
                                          Christopher
                                          • 18. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                            Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                            >Are you trying to edit HDV using a codec designed for delivery or a codec designed for editing?

                                            I'm trying to edit HDV. If I was editing using a difference codec like Cineform, then I'm not editing HDV.

                                            Editing HDV worked perfectly fine with PPro 2.0, but CS3 was a step backwards as far as stability.

                                            As soon as I finish my current projects using Avid (I really miss Dynamic Link between my NLE and AE), then I'll re-evaluate Cineform again. I'll have to give up real-time performance and render everything since Cineform doesn't support any of the filters I use (like Adobe's great color correction tools) and render everything, but that is better than crashing every 5 minutes, having long project loads, having audio cut out every few seconds, not being able to see the audio wave form displayed on my multi-cam; etc, etc.

                                            Downloading 3.1 right now. My fingers are crossed that it fixes enough of the bugs to make CS3 usable for me again.
                                            • 19. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                              Level 1
                                              Jeron I bought Cineform, solid as rock!

                                              Trust me.
                                              • 20. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                Harm Millaard Level 7
                                                Now that you bought the company, will you be renaming Aspect HD to ROCK HD, it being so solid???
                                                • 21. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                  Level 1
                                                  > I'm trying to edit HDV. If I was editing using a difference codec like
                                                  > Cineform, then I'm not editing HDV.

                                                  Understood. Some OPs use HD, HDV, etc, interchangebly so it's worth
                                                  checking.

                                                  > Editing HDV worked perfectly fine with PPro 2.0, but CS3 was a step
                                                  > backwards as far as stability.

                                                  Do you have these problems with completely new CS3 projects?

                                                  > As soon as I finish my current projects using Avid (I really miss Dynamic
                                                  > Link between my NLE and AE), then I'll re-evaluate Cineform again. I'll
                                                  > have to give up real-time performance and render everything since Cineform
                                                  > doesn't support any of the filters I use (like Adobe's great color
                                                  > correction tools) and render everything,

                                                  Be sure and test the Cineform color correction to see how it compares to the
                                                  Adobe color correction. You should be able to determine how it will perform
                                                  during the demo period before making a purchase.

                                                  > but that is better than crashing every 5 minutes, having long project
                                                  > loads, having audio cut out every few seconds, not being able to see the
                                                  > audio wave form displayed on my multi-cam; etc, etc.

                                                  One benefit of Cineform is the technical support. It's not without issues,
                                                  but they generally respond quickly.

                                                  > Downloading 3.1 right now. My fingers are crossed that it fixes enough of
                                                  > the bugs to make CS3 usable for me again.

                                                  Here's hoping.

                                                  Best,
                                                  Christopher
                                                  • 22. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                    Hi folks, what are the "rumors on the street" about what and when Adobe will offer an intermediate HD editing codec similar to ProRes but fully functional within Premiere? thanks
                                                    • 23. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                      Harm Millaard Level 7
                                                      Rumors on the street indicate that Adobe will deliver before the end of this month an upgrade to fully support XDCAM-HD, including SxS support for ingest and will provide this support FREE OF CHARGE. This upgrade will include support for overcrancking/undercranking and all formats, from 1920x1080, thru 1440x1080 up to 1280x720. In addition it will provide the first 500 downloaders of this free update a PMW-EX1 camera, including 3 SBP16 cards, 3 BP-U60 batteries and a SBAC-US10 USB card reader for the SxS card, including free shipping.

                                                      Unfortunately, the camera rain slicker and bag need to be purchased from Sony or another third party. Neither is the PDW-U1 included in the deal.
                                                      • 24. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                        Level 1
                                                        > Rumors on the street indicate ...

                                                        Hey Harm, you live on one very cool street. :)

                                                        Best,
                                                        Christopher
                                                        • 25. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                          Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                          Thanks for the input Howard and Christopher. I've evaluated Cineform many times. The only problem I have with it (once I actually get it installed and running after manually registering components and tweaking registry settings), is the preset not supporting any realtime playback of any non Cineform RT filter and effect.

                                                          I use Boris, Magic Bullet and Adobe's color correction tools extensively in every project. All playback without rendering on multiple streams of HDV. If I were to switch to Cineform, I'd have to render every single timeline constantly to playback my work, thus crippling my workflow.

                                                          I've tried Cinform's color correction tool, but 6 sliders just doesn't to the other advanced tools that Adobe has to offer like the color wheel and histograms.

                                                          Like I said previously, I might just have to switch to "render everything using Cineform mode", because 3.1 so far, seems to have only introduced more bugs and not fixed any of the ones that I've reported.

                                                          Like, now with 3.1 Premiere Pro re-indexes every single HDV clip, every single time I open a project...
                                                          • 26. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                            Level 1
                                                            > The only problem ... is the preset not supporting any realtime playback of
                                                            > any non Cineform RT filter and effect.

                                                            It's a shame CFHD isn't universally compatible with all the available
                                                            effects. Clearly Cineform does not have the resources to duplicate all the
                                                            effects, so perhaps the only long-term solution is for Adobe to release
                                                            their own internal HD codec.

                                                            Best,
                                                            Christopher
                                                            • 27. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                              Level 1
                                                              Yeah the lack of support for effects is a bit of a bummer, however Premiere overall is far more responsive and opens quicker under Cineform.

                                                              I do not know how to explain this but even if you add non-realtime FX you can still preview your edits with Cineform... With native PPRO it lags badly when it needs to be rendered. Cineform just skips the effects and allows you to still have realtime. You can force a render.

                                                              I find this way works for me, cause I apply all my native PPRO FX and judge the shot by some "key" frames and scrub through to make sure it looks ok, then I leave it save it as a preset (to use later) and carry on; no rendering. This making sense?

                                                              I apply some FX and if it looks cool in 1 frame it looks ok for the rest. With PPRO when you do not render it lags badly, you can disable effects but it is very tedious.

                                                              Trust me I am not trying to sell Cineform to anyone, but I am happy with it. I barely render my DVCPRO HD stuff when editing. Cineform is rock solid, PPRO still crashes as usual but less frequently and I never loose work. Cineform would be awesome if it was more integrated with PPRO but that is not for us to decide. And yes the realtime native effects you are given are not the greatest but again what can you do?

                                                              I still enjoy a smooth timeline and great speed. The only thing I can so far with Cineform is that it takes a little longer to render when you do render, and the exports take slightly longer but the quality is GOOD!!
                                                              • 28. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                                Level 1
                                                                " so perhaps the only long-term solution is for Adobe to release
                                                                their own internal HD codec."

                                                                Wishful thinking... :-)

                                                                I personally do not think Adobe would ever make one, and if they did people would shoot it down and say it sucks compared to apples prores.
                                                                • 29. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                                  Gary Andrew Level 1
                                                                  Wow - way to hijack a thread
                                                                  • 30. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                                    Level 1
                                                                    The initial thread has run it's course and evolved.
                                                                    • 31. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                                      Jeron Coolman Level 1
                                                                      Howard, thanks for the description of your workflow. I keep feeling like, I just don't get it when it comes to Cineform workflows, so hearing how others use it helps.

                                                                      I think part of the issue is, coming from Avid where you do everything in the editor, makes me want to do everything in the editor. I know I do a lot of things in PPro that a lot of users do in AE.

                                                                      Using Boris, which has any filter you'd ever need and works in Avid, AE and PPro, is the main issue. I'm used to using Boris to Key, create feathered masks, create custom transitions, etc, etc. directly in PPro and review most of the work without rendering.

                                                                      I think the only thing that would hold me back from a Cineform workflow, if I wasn't a "Boris-junkie" would be the Adobe Color Correction tools not being real-time with it. I think the Cineform codec is really nice.

                                                                      Plus, I really don't have any problems at all with the performance or quality of native HDV and PPro. The only problems pertain to the stability of the program with HDV. Uncompressed HD, uncompressed DV and SD works great.

                                                                      Which was why I originally commented on this thread... didn't try to hijack as much as make a commentary on Adobe's QA or lack of (as seen with the recent forum fiasco) comparing 2.0's HDV to CS3's HDV stability.

                                                                      It would only take 1 person at Adobe to capture some HDV tapes in CS3 and try to edit a multi-cam project to see the problems I, and others, are seeing.
                                                                      • 32. Re: Welcome Back Old Friend
                                                                        Level 1
                                                                        > I know I do a lot of things in PPro that a lot of users do in AE.

                                                                        Me too, I love using Premiere for as much as possible.

                                                                        > I know I do a lot of things in PPro that a lot of users do in AE.

                                                                        So true.. :-)

                                                                        I wonder how "hard" Adobe tech guys actually tested/pushed Prmeiere CS3...