37 Replies Latest reply on Feb 4, 2009 4:58 AM by (Angelo_Clematide)

    Avid codec with premiere pro cs4

    Level 1
      has anyone used Avid DnxHD codec with premiere? I cant change the settings of the codec and i wanted to see how much better it would be compared to Apple ProRes422(HQ). Has anyone got it to work or is it a no go? and how come i cant edit the settings of ProRes422?

      I use premiere pro instead of Final cut pro because my camera records AVCHD and i dont want to loose any quality in which log and transfer in final cut pro will do.
        • 1. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
          joshtownsend Level 2
          I tried to import a DnxHD file I made with After Effects but can't get it to work. Not sure what I did wrong.
          • 2. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
            Level 1
            did you make the dnxhd with premiere pro? and canyou change the settings of it? the default seems to be 709 colours, but i want it to change to RGB, but premiere pro wont let me change the codec settings, even though it displays it.
            • 3. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
              joshtownsend Level 2
              "did you make the dnxhd with premiere pro?"

              Read my response again I'm not gonna retype it.
              • 4. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                Level 1
                oh, ok i see. i cant get anything to work in after effects that i have to dynamically link everything back to premiere pro.
                • 5. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                  Colin Brougham Level 6
                  Gents,

                  Check out the these: Avid QuickTime Codecs LE 1.10. Yes, I know--elsewhere you'll find version 1.90, which logic would dictate is newer/better/faster/more--not so. Judging by the NLE software these were released with (ie. MC 3.0.5), I believe that these represent a new architecture of the codecs. The support note mentions that they're "designed to run on Leopard v.10.5.5 and higher, Vista Business 32 and 64 bit, with SP1, and Windows XP Professional with SP2." I just tested them out on Vista Business 64, and I was able to render out DNxHD and Avid Uncompressed from AE and import into PPro--worked a treat.

                  The nice thing about the Avid codecs--besides being free and being very high quality, particularly DNxHD--is that they install equally on both Mac and PC. Platform agnosticism is cool... QuickTime or otherwise.
                  • 6. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                    joshtownsend Level 2
                    Thanks Colin, I'll try the 1.10. I had the 1.90 I always liked DNxHD.
                    • 7. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                      Level 1
                      colin, i already had those avid codecs. my problems is that i can't change the codec settings within premiere pro. the default settings for dnxhd is 709 colors, i want to change it to RGB. but it doesnt work. everytime i change the 709 to RGB and press OK in the codec settings it just changes back to 709 by itself(remember, this is within premiere pro cs4).

                      o, and the reason why i'm not using Avid in the beginning is because it does not support sony avchd natively and i dont wanna loose any quality before editing.

                      if this doesnt work, is there any other codec like ProRes422(HQ) and DnxHD? or should i just stick with proRes?
                      • 8. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                        Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                        Can you change the codec settings so that you set dnxhd to RGB system-wide for the time you want to use it in Pr?
                        • 9. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                          Colin Brougham Level 6
                          I'm confused, Gabriel--how exactly are you trying to use the Avid codecs in Premiere? Because all you're going to be able to do with them is (a) edit pre-rendered or pre-captured DNxHD footage, or (b) export to a QuickTime movie through AME... maybe. I guess if you could describe what you're trying to accomplish, we might help you find a solution. All I know is that I'm able to easily and successfully any flavor of DNxHD (with either 709 or RGB colorspace) from After Effects, and import them into PPro.
                          • 10. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                            Level 1
                            to Jeff Bellune . the answer is yes, the changes do apply throughout the operating system if i try to edit with fial cut or imovie or quicktime pro, but premiere pro has its own weird thing going on that sets everything back to default.

                            to colin Brougham - here's a simple explanation. I want to import my AVCHD from a sony hdrsr12 to premiere pro without converting it into any other codec. And then of course after editing my stuff i would like to export it with DnxHD. but as i said, the Adobe Media Encoder does not successfully change the codec settings as it keeps on going back to the default settings(709 colors).

                            My only other option now is to use Apple ProRes422(HQ), but i heard that DnxHD looks a bit better, as i would like to edit my AVCHD without almost no loss of quality.
                            • 11. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                              joshtownsend Level 2
                              Why don't you just render to the delivery format? Why do you want to render to another codec in the first place?

                              Just asking.
                              • 12. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                Level 1
                                i tried to render to h.264 but it just looks horrible compared to
                                'rendering to ProRes422(HQ) and then using quicktime pro exporting to h.264'.
                                Dont ask me how.... premiere pro must have done some weird thing there.
                                • 13. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                  Level 1
                                  - I have all available AVID codec installed, but not for transcoding video into that codec, but for working with footage which comes in from AVID users. Some AVID codecs work in Premiere, some don't work.

                                  - Final Cut Pro can edit AVCHD natively, simply drag&drop the camera footage to the hard drive - no need to use intermediate ProRes422.

                                  - Also PremierePro should be capable to edit AVCHD, simply install a MPEG-4 plug-in. I never had to do that because we never had any AVCHD so far. Call MainConcept and ask if it really works with their plug-in before you spend the money for the MainConcept MPEG Pro HD Plug-In for Adobe® Premiere® Pro, Pro HD 3 supports the H.264 standard which is a MPEG-4 standard.

                                  - ProRes422 doesn't work in Premiere.
                                  • 14. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                    Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                    Pr CS4 edits AVCHD natively.
                                    • 15. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                      Level 1
                                      Final cut pro uses Log and Transfer, which means that AVCHD will convert to Apple Intermediate Codec or ProRes422 and 5.1 surround sound is downmixed to Stereo(My footage is all 5.1 surround sound). I tried to drag in a .m2ts and .mts file directly into Final cut pro 6.0.5 but it doesn't recognize this format.
                                      go here: http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/support.html and look at the 'tapeless formats' section. it talks about AVCHD and log and transfer.
                                      ProRes422(HQ) works fine in Premiere Pro, I've been telling you that I've used it. And i've also told you that I have been using Premiere pro to edit AVCHD, i just wanted to see the difference between ProRes422 and DnxHD when exporting with premiere pro. All the Avid codecs in premiere pro work for me, except that i cant change any of there settings.
                                      If you need any more info, i hope this helps, i'm using an Intel MAC.
                                      • 16. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                        Colin Brougham Level 6
                                        Slowly, surely, we're getting somewhere. At least we now know you're on a Mac.

                                        Riddle me this: what is your goal of using either ProRes or DNxHD to export from Premiere Pro? Are you creating a master, or are you going to someplace else for further editing/effects work, or are you going to final render-out for delivery? While the 10-bit, high bitrate flavors of both ProRes and DNxHD could be considered mastering codecs, depending on your goals you may be shooting yourself in the foot with this workflow.

                                        Incidentally, do you have either the Production bundle or the Master bundle, and subsequently access to After Effects? If so, you might want to turn to that for your QuickTime exports, since QT export in PPro is wonky to say the least. I can assure you that you will have full control of at least the DNxHD codec in AE, and I can confirm that the Avid codecs seem to be broken (at best) in PPro/AME. I'm not sure this is totally Adobe's fault in this instance--I've always found the Avid exports a little bizarre from PPro, even in CS3.

                                        Sorry to have to belabor these issues, Gabriel, but you're leaking pertinent information out backwards and at a pretty slow rate. We'll get you there, but recognize it may take some time ;)
                                        • 17. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                          Level 1
                                          thanks for your help colin, i would like to keep a master quality copy(just in case h.265 comes out this year or next year). My footage are in 5.1 surround sound and after effects only support stereo, but yes, the codecs do function better in after effects than AME.
                                          I have the Master collection.

                                          In your opinion is ProRes422(HQ) better than DnxHD? I have a 1080i60 footage and rendering it out as 1080p24. I read that both Dnxhd and ProRes422 have about the same bitrate for 1080p24 at 170 Mpbs, but from some websites i see people talking about dnxhd is a little bit better than ProRes422. Unfortunely i only got ProRes422 to work so i cant compare it with Dnxhd.
                                          Is there no way to have absolutely no loss of quality? i am very strict on quality, i notice even the tiniest difference.
                                          and if you need more info, ive used sony vegas and nero vision. there are both good, but outputing to quicktime is absolutely horrible. And outputting to quicktime is absolutely necessary until i get myself a 'blu-ray burner and a blu-ray player and a new tv'

                                          If there is no better codec or no other way to use dnxhd, then i might as well stick with ProRes. *sad face*
                                          • 18. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                            joshtownsend Level 2
                                            I think both codecs are equally good. But I can't render pro-res cause I'm not a mac guy. I can only read the files.
                                            • 19. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                              Colin Brougham Level 6
                                              I believe that DNxHD is a slight modicum of "better" than ProRes--some video guru somewhere on the web did a comparison of the two, and DNxHD came out on top. I personally haven't done a comparison, so I have to take that for what it's worth. I think that for most mere mortals, the differences are going to be minuscule and quite inconsequential--but you might be able to detect the difference ;)

                                              The only way to not compress your video again is, well, to not compress it again. In other words, use something like Apple Animation which will give you a bit-for-bit, pixel-for-pixel copy of your original. Of course, your hard drive will fill up and explode, depending on the length of your export, but that's the trade-off for pristine quality.

                                              Bear in mind that the AVCHD you're working with is already highly compressed. Even at its minimum compression (24Mbps), there's still quite a bit of squeezing going on, as well as other processing going on intrinsic to H.264 that makes it look so purty, but be so damned hard to edit. Again, this is the trade-off. I think you need to carefully weigh the importance of saving a few fleeting pixels over the mountain of hard drive space that you'll need to store these massive exports. You get six of one, or a half dozen of the other.

                                              Since you've got the Master collection, I'd suggest sending your finished PPro timeline to AE via Dynamic Link (lasso your clips, right-click, and hit "Send to After Effects"). You don't need to change anything there; just put that comp into the render queue, tweak your settings for DNxHD/ProRes export, and go to town. Like Josh, I can't speak to ProRes because I'm on Windows and we can only play it back, but you should be able to change its settings there. If not, go with DNxHD because you have full customization of the codec at your fingertips--colorspace included.

                                              Regarding the audio: don't sweat that AE can't export or deal with 5.1. Just export that from PPro, either as a mix (if you can do that--I'm not sure as I don't work in 5.1) or as 6 mono files. Then, just store those with the video rendered out of AE. You can always stitch everything back together later in your NLE of choice, and export/render out a distribution format. Make it easy on yourself!
                                              • 20. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                Level 1
                                                Colin, i very much like you're idea of mixing the video exported from AE and a audio together. I believe quicktime Pro can do this. Thank you very much for the idea.
                                                • 21. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                  >i would like to keep a master quality copy

                                                  Maybe I'm missing something, but...why not just export Uncompressed, or even Lagarith?
                                                  • 22. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                    Colin Brougham Level 6
                                                    He's on a Mac... don't go there Jim ;)
                                                    • 23. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                      Oh, yeah.

                                                      Makes sense for Lags, but even on a Mac isn't Uncompressed a viable option?
                                                      • 24. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                        Colin Brougham Level 6
                                                        It hasn't been on Windows, but not sure on Mac. (I did propose that as a solution--actually, Animation--a few posts back, but he seems to like ProRes/DNxHD).
                                                        • 25. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                          Level 1
                                                          here's the trailer of my Orlando trip:
                                                          http://silentsleeper.com/orlando08/
                                                          This was rendered with ProRes422(HQ) and i used quicktime pro to make it h.264. Enjoy.

                                                          I'm gonna try the new method from Colin later.
                                                          • 26. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                            Level 1
                                                            Jeff Bellune sez ---> "Pr CS4 edits AVCHD natively."

                                                            So what is the whole thread about?

                                                            .
                                                            • 27. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                              joshtownsend Level 2
                                                              " (I did propose that as a solution--actually, Animation--a few posts back, but he seems to like ProRes/DNxHD). "

                                                              Does the Animation codec render using Macs because it sure doesn't in AME on windows.
                                                              • 28. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                Level 1
                                                                ive tried using animation, but it put some weird layer on top on my movie, i'll make one in a couple of hours and show you what i mean
                                                                • 29. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                  Colin Brougham Level 6
                                                                  Wow! I hadn't experienced the great depths of schmegginess that Animation provides in CS4! I don't go to Animation/Uncompressed too often. But boy, it is truly awful.

                                                                  Gabriel, I think After Effects is going to be your only salvation, at least until Adobe fixes the Uncompressed QT exports.
                                                                  • 30. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                    joshtownsend Level 2
                                                                    AE the ultimate workaround for Premiere CS4 and AME!!!!!!!!

                                                                    Imagine if Adobe bought Maxxon C4d got rid of Premiere and just added a simple NLE to After Effects and made it all one program. It'd be THE KILLER app.
                                                                    • 31. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                      Level 1
                                                                      After comparing many codecs, here are my results(click on them and compare them with your browser tabs):
                                                                      ProRes422


                                                                      ProRes422(HQ)


                                                                      Apple None


                                                                      Animation


                                                                      Planar RGB


                                                                      and the original footage: AVCHD


                                                                      As you may notice, planarRGB and None look exactly the same pixel by pixel. Animation just looks screwed up.

                                                                      In some ways, ProRes422(HQ) looks worse than ProRes422, I guess AVCHD does need the HQ. But nothing beat the raw low bitrate AVCHD. I blame GOD.
                                                                      • 32. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                        Level 1
                                                                        Gabriel Lamb sez ----> I blame GOD

                                                                        Blame it on you.

                                                                        This footage isn't worth discussing any codec.

                                                                        What a waste of time this thread was.

                                                                        .
                                                                        • 33. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                          Level 1
                                                                          this thread wasnt watse of time, i got my solution, use AE instead of Premiere pro for video render and mix the audio and video together with a separate program, in which i will use quicktime pro. i just wanted to know which codec gave the best quality from a 16Mbps Sony AVCHD.
                                                                          • 34. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                            Orytek Level 1
                                                                            Voltaic will read and convert avchd files to ProRes HQ or DNxHD. Or, any quicktime codec that you have installed..
                                                                            I use it to convert avchd prior to editing in Premiere.
                                                                            Best of all is that all the codec settings work and it doesn't crash like AME does when converting avchd to an intermediate.

                                                                            http://www.shedworx.com/voltaichd
                                                                            • 35. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                              Level 1
                                                                              orytek, the problem with converting anything before editing is that you might loose quality. Unless of course after you edit with the converted files, you export your whole movie using back the original avchd files. The only problem is that i wont have so much hard drive space. I care very little about realtime playback during editing, the point of this thread was to render Avchd to its absolute(not visually) lossless quality with a quicktime format. I hope there is someone who knows such a codec
                                                                              • 36. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                                Level 1
                                                                                Gabriel Lam sez ---> i just wanted to know which codec gave the best quality from a 16Mbps Sony AVCHD.

                                                                                The original source is always the best, no matter how low the picture quality of the camera source is. In other words, it is impossible to gain picture quality by transcoding the source footage to another codec.

                                                                                .
                                                                                • 37. Re: Avid codec with premiere pro cs4
                                                                                  Level 1
                                                                                  And the professional way of editing high definition when no color correction have to be made, is with a intermediate codec, edit and then render the master. But when corrections have to be made, e.g. color adjustments, use EDL to access the original sources, make whatever correction in uncompressed, then render the master.

                                                                                  The best high definition compressions are HDCAM with a compression of ratio of 2:1 in a SONY 750 camera, or RED ONE. But as as said, it doesn't make sense to transcode MPEG video to this high quality format, you won't gain any picture quality.

                                                                                  .