1 2 3 Previous Next 107 Replies Latest reply on Feb 20, 2009 1:36 PM by joshtownsend

    Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.

    HywelPhillips
      Dear Adobe,

      I have been using Premiere as my primary editor for years (I think I started on version 6). Although some versions had flaws and the occasional crash, they were reasonably competant apps which did the job.

      CS4 is not. In the 24 hours since I installed it I have seen my first-ever Blue Screen of Death on my workstation (in 18 months of working day in day out). CS4 crashes about 50% of the time on start-up. It often takes the window organisation with it, so next time I start up I get a blank work window and have to reset to default to get anything back. Then it most likely crashes again. I've had more crashes in one day trying to edit one single video than I have had in all my previous years of using Premiere put together.

      CS3 runs stably on the same system, and still appears to do so. So please do not ty to make excuses about it being some other software installed on the system's fault. CS4 is buggy as hell and that's all there is to say. (I'm on XP, service pack 3, latest drivers for video cards recently installed to see if it fixed crashes, it does not. Dual core athlon, 4 GB of memory, 8800 GTS graphics card.)

      To cap it off, the new feature which I was most looking forward to, batch export, is also unreliable. It cannot export to H264 25 fps from my 25 fps Panasonic P2 DVC PRO HD original files - it stutters and has pure green frames everywhere. The export to WMV appears to have the wrong gamma, and have bad artefacts to boot, and is glacially slow. I was hoping to be able to get rid of the need for ProCoder 3, but Media Export is unusable for website production in this release.

      My other main workhorse, magic bullet looks, has been upgraded to version 1.2 to try to work with CS4. It worked with 4.0.0 raw off the CD, but now that I've updated to the latest release, it reliably crashes CS4 whenever I try to apply it to a clip.

      The ONLY saving grace of this release is that it does not appear to have messed up my CS3 installation, so I can still do some work.

      This is utterly unacceptable in any product, but especially in one bearing a "Pro" moniker.

      I was contemplating a new workstation to speed up workflow now that everything I have moved entirely to P2-based production. CS4 has given me the strongest possible impetus to look very closely at the Mac alternatives and Final Cut Pro.

      You seriously need to fix these issues, and on a timescale of weeks, not months, if you want to retain me as a customer.

      Hywel Phillips.
        • 1. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
          Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
          1. BSODs are caused by hardware problems, not software. However, it is usually resource-intensive software that exposes those problems.

          2. What format are you using for H.264 export? Quicktime .mov? Don't do that. Use the H.264 MPEG4 settings.

          3. If the renders are glacially slow, it's likely because you have "Maximum Render Quality" checked. Going from HD to web, however, MRQ (or MQR, I always forget which it is) is a necessary evil, because Premiere's standard scaling and deinterlacing is terrible. If you've done this same workflow with CS3, then you already know that.

          4. This is a user-to-user forum. The people that should see your letter don't hang out here.
          • 2. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
            Level 1
            >3. If the renders are glacially slow, it's likely because you have "Maximum Render Quality" checked. Going from HD to web, however, MRQ (or MQR, I always forget which it is) is a necessary evil, because Premiere's standard scaling and deinterlacing is terrible. If you've done this same workflow with CS3, then you already know that.

            Or it could be that he has the preview "on" in the AME.
            • 3. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
              don solomon Level 1
              Hywel,

              There is a long recent thread, "Adobe, this an Outrage" where many who feel the same as you have added their voices and the particular problems they are having--you are not alone. You might add your voice to that open letter. Have you contacted Adobe support? That's a more direct path for complaints.

              As for Magic Bullet Looks 1.2, it works perfectly on my configuration, and there have not been any other complaints here to my knowledge of it causing problems.

              I always hate to suggest it because it often sounds like a cop out, but you may have a compatibility problem or a bad install. Can you give your system specs? That might help. The first place I would look is the video card and drivers. Many CS4 products now rely on GPU implementations. Consequently, video card compatibility problems are now front and center. What card,and have you downloaded the latest drivers?

              I too am disappointed with Adobe's terrible QC and QA, and I agree that this is definitely a premature release, and, though it works on my configuration, I think AME is poorly designed and implemented workflow bottleneck--for me at least, a complete PIA.

              BUT, in spite of slowness, weak feature integration, and known bugs, it does run on my configuration--no crashes,hangs,etc. That leads me to believe that I have won the Adobe System Compatibility Lottery on CS4, and you and others with crashes may have not.
              • 4. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                HywelPhillips Level 1
                Hi,

                I've contacted Adobe support as well now, thanks for the heads-up.

                I'm using an Nvidia 8800 GTS with latest drivers. The crashes were similar in frequency before and after the driver change, as I tried that as part of my bug hunting. Ditto latest version of DirectX 9. Windows XP SP3, Athlon 64 X2 dual core, 4 GB RAM.

                Looks 1.2 seemed to work with version 4.0.0 but reliably crashes the app when I try to apply it to a clip in 4.0.1. I will try reinstalling Looks afresh as I did the install before updating to 4.0.1.

                Slow AME: I had preview "on". Silly me, in Procoder 3 or Cleaner XL it made no significant difference to render times so I kinda hoped Adobe could code it thus. Apparently not. I probably had max quality ticked as well, if that's the default out of the box. I didn't use exporter in the old version to create MP4 or WMV files, I wrote an intermediate AVI file and used that to Procoder from, plus a P2 output render for archival. Those bits seem to work fine, but the AME output quality on the MP4 and WMV files is absolutely awful, compared with output with settings as near as I can tell are the same in Procoder 3. And Procoder 3 is probably a factor of 6-10 faster, especially for the WMV.

                Thanks to all for suggestions... and for knowing that I am not alone. The Final Cut Pro option is looking more and more attractive, given that I have someone else starting to share the work editing for me and I have to give him a working system somehow. CS4, on current performance, is literally unusable on my main system and so buying a machine to run it feels like a fool's errand (especially as I'd then have to contaminate the office which a copy of Vista, something I have thus far avoided!)

                Anyone know of any discussion/comparsions between Premiere Pro and Final Cut Pro? I'm guessing FCP doesn't have nested timelines, a neat feature but one which I think I can live without. It looks like FCP can finally deal with P2 input natively now, which was the big issue for me before. Can it do multicam, anyone know?

                Cheers, Hywel.
                • 5. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                  joshtownsend Level 2
                  http://mxf4mac.com/mxf4qtimport

                  You have to buy a plug-in that costs 400 dollar euro for Native p2 in Final Cut.

                  If I had the money for an 8 core Mac and Final Cut and all that (5-7 grand usa) I would switch over. But I have now problem at all using my p2 footage. I even tried some PAL p2 footage and it all works fast as hell.
                  Look 1.2 is a little buggy with Premiere (have to restart it to get a preview frame). It does work 90% of the time and I even get realtime HD playback when I have just a few looks effects.
                  • 6. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                    don solomon Level 1
                    Hywel,

                    I would add the cautionary note that switching platforms to MAC in order to run FCP 6 or Final Cut Studio 2 will be an expensive investment relative to upgrading your PC to significant power. The 400 buck plugin for multicam will only be the first of many expenses with a Mac.

                    Nothing is reasonably priced in Mac land. And system and compatibility problems occur there , in my experience, in spite of the Apple advertising to the contrary. Generally, though, you do get a lot of (overpriced) editing power in FCP6, and there will be far fewer compatibility problems arising.

                    Mac Pro is the only way to go, with, say, a minimum of 8 gigs ram (and I would get 16). Add Final Cut Studio 2 and you are looking down the barrel of an easy 5 grand +. For 2 grand you can you seriously upgrade your PC specs in a new box, leaving you with 2 compatible machines.

                    If it were me, I would give serious thought to trying Premiere's competitors before jumping headlong into FCP6. There are some good alternatives out there that may be perfectly satisfactory for your pro work, depending on its nature and your established workflow. FCP is a lot more powerful, but maybe moreso than you need for your workflow. It will do Multicam with 16 cameras, for example, compared to the 4 in Premiere. And there is a reasonably serious learning curve when switching, again depending on the complexity of the work you do

                    Changing platforms is a big move when you use your gear for production. It's not just money, its adjustment time and effort.

                    And there is always the option to continue with CS3 while you examine alternatives, unless the work you do has gone beyond its limitations, and hope that Adobe CS4 4.1 hits a home run--I'm not one to hold my breath waiting for Adobe to get a new version stablized, but it is at least a possibility.
                    • 7. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                      joshtownsend Level 2
                      Thanks for breaking it down Don.

                      In my post I meant to say "I have NO problem at all using my p2 footage"
                      • 8. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                        Level 1
                        I say switch to Mac. It will be the happiest day of your life. When I switched to FCP from Media 100 it took me a day to change the hardware and the software. I learned FCP while working on a paid project and was up and editing in four hours. I don't know why anybody would do otherwise.

                        Interestingly, someone on another thread used the old "there is alot more software available for Windows". Apparently you need them ALL to get Premiere to run worth a damn.
                        • 9. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                          creig bryan-mUOxt4 Level 1
                          > "...I meant to say "I have NO problem at all using my p2 footage"..."

                          Like most of us, you think far faster than you type, occasionally omitting a word or. Most of us use fuzzy logic to correct for the missing word(s), but confusion can still be the result. And even taking an extra moment to reread a post before posting it doesn't always help----but sometimes it does....

                          Keep Smiling
                          • 10. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                            Bob Ramage Level 1
                            You can buy an 8-core Mac Pro for under $3K. Just get the base configuration. Adding RAM, hard drives, etc. is very easy and affordable through 3rd party suppliers such as OWC. No need for Final Cut if you already have CS4. You can do a crossgrade for the cost of shipping and CS4 works great on the Mac. I priced out Windows-based workstations prior to buying my Mac Pro and was very surprised to see that they were actually more expensive.
                            • 11. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                              don solomon Level 1
                              Whatever the price of a Mac Pro, the whole point in moving to it for me would be to run FCP6. If, as you say CS4 runs "great" on a Mac, it is the first Adobe app that ever did--Photoshop doesn't, Lightroom doesn't.

                              Mac users of these apps often have as severe problems as do PC users--and quite often a given feature will be bug free on a PC and buggy on the Mac, or vice versa. Visit those forums and read it for yourself. Mac users ***** even louder than PC users--I suppose because they seem to have the eternal illusion that Macs always are supposed to work flawlessly. Thanks to Apple's great ad campaigns, I guess. :)

                              Adobe's quality control is no better on Mac versions overall, from my experience using them on Mac gear I use on contract editing jobs for clients who insist work be done in house on their networked machines.

                              That it works great for you does not, of course, mean that it is universal experience.
                              • 12. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                Harm Millaard Level 7
                                IMO there are four major factors against a MAC, if you know hardware and software. Now that is the BIG IF. If you know that, then:

                                1. MAC is far more expensive than PC with the same components
                                2. MAC has far less hardware options to extend capabilities
                                3. MAC has far less software/plug-ins available at decent prices
                                4. MAC is extremely difficult in a networked environment

                                For people without the technical savvy to build a PC or have others do it for them, that have big enough wallets to afford them and have no sense of future expansion needs, Mac is a viable option. Just like some people on the PC side like Dell.

                                Actually, I hate them both with my expertise, because they offer a basic system at affordable prices with far too limited expansion capabilities, steal you blind with options and extras and still do not give you what you want. They are both great for standard systems but for anything more than that are not an option.

                                I realize not everybody is a techie and not everybody wants a custom built system or needs it. If you are in for an off-the-shelf system both Dell and Mac are good options. If you are looking for that extra mile, PC with either Windows or Linux is the way to go for flexibility, available software, expandability and economics.
                                • 13. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                  Bob Ramage Level 1
                                  No computer is bug free, but in general Macs enjoys substantially fewer problems than any Windows-based machines. And that includes Adobe apps. This is because of the superiority of OS X and the tightly controlled hardware configurations. Mac usage dominates in the creative community, and Adobe apps such as Photoshop, After Effects and Illustrator are mainstays. FCP is a great program but if you already have PPro CS4 and it works for you why switch?
                                  • 14. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                    >in general Macs enjoys substantially fewer problems than any Windows-based machines.

                                    That's only because there are substantially fewer of them. Having used both, the famed Mac "workability" really is no more than a marketing campaign.

                                    The only thing you really get with a Mac is fewer options.
                                    • 15. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                      Curt Wrigley Level 4
                                      > The only thing you really get with a Mac is fewer options.

                                      And fewer mouse buttons. Or have the latest macs started shipping with two mouse buttons now?
                                      • 16. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                        Level 1
                                        >And fewer mouse buttons. Or have the latest macs started shipping with two mouse buttons now?

                                        You can get them but that doesnt help much. They are still a PITA.
                                        • 17. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                          AsianOcean.com
                                          Windows 7 will be released by July (my assumption after scrutinizing the change in wordings of the expiry warning of beta). I built a PC with i7 processor 920 (4 cores + 4 hyper threading, $230 at Microcenter), 12 gig DDR3 1600 memory ($320), 600 watt Power ($80), Asus P6T Deluxe MoBo ($280 - combo pricing), Asus 9600 GT with 512 MB ($120 Newegg), three HDs 1.5TB ($200), case ($70) , running Windows 7 beta 64 bit (very stable and "friendly" even when a program crashes, no BSOD), total cost $1300. Pretty powerful machine I would say. CS4 Pro Premium upgrade ($1100) Premiere wouldn't work. Slow, many crashes, cant dynamic link to Encore! Same machine dual booted to XP everything else works but not the PP and Encore dynamic link!
                                          Today first time in my life I seriously started thinking about Mac and Final Cut Studio because I want a smooth workflow with EX1 files.
                                          I wish I could build a Hacintosh on my i7 PC. May be.
                                          Ha... life is tough! Work is pending. Clients are VERY upset.
                                          • 18. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                            Level 1
                                            >running Windows 7 beta (very "friendly" even when a program crashes, no BSOD), total cost $1300. Pretty powerful machine I would say. CS4 Pro Premium upgrade ($1100) Premiere wouldn't work. Slow, many crashes, cant dynamic link to Encore! Same machine dual booted to XP everything else works but not the PP and Encore dynamic link!

                                            What did you think was going to happen? An OS that is not even out yet????
                                            • 19. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                              Bob Ramage Level 1
                                              Use whatever platform works best for you. I've been very happy with Premiere CS4 on the Mac. It's a big step up from the CS3 version, which on the Mac was really version 1.0.
                                              • 20. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                joshtownsend Level 2
                                                Windows 7 beta is awesome sooo fast. But it will not change the way software like Premiere works. Every single Premiere problem was still there.

                                                I guess I got lucky using P2 cards because DVCPROHD is fast as hell and stable enough (I say this as a dynamic link crashes Premiere) and it gets stuff done no problem.

                                                I've also tested my next rental then purchase RED and it works good enough in CS4 especially for 4k footage on a quadcore.

                                                The HDV and AVCHD are much harder to work with than in Vegas or Edius. Luck of the draw I started off with Cineform because P2 files where not supported at first. A year later Adobe gives me Awesome support and I'm hooked. I can see how it's frustrating. Those HDV and AVCHD codecs haven't been around nearly as ling as P2's DVCPRO. Maybe there's more catching up to do.

                                                Your trading high performance editing for quarter cheaper data.

                                                Sorry about the rant totally off subject and I love shooting with nice HDV and AVCHD cameras. It's just that the editing reminds me off my first year of editing with an HVX and P2 card. Expensive hardware or slow intermediary codecs.
                                                • 21. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                  AsianOcean.com Level 1
                                                  What I meant is everything works fine in Windows 7 AND XP except PP and DL to Encore, in either OS. On top of that Windows 7 64 bit is smooth and fast and is utilizing all 12 GB ram, but PP is still not happy.
                                                  You have to use Windows 7 beta to get the feel of what an OS could be. I didnt see anything wrong with it except for some graphics redraw problems.
                                                  • 22. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                    Level 1
                                                    Jim Said, "That's only because there are substantially fewer of them. Having used both, the famed Mac "workability" really is no more than a marketing campaign."

                                                    Jim, that's a load of hooey from a Windows syncophant. Macs work better and more consistently. I am constantly on the phone with my IT people (in Costa Rica, for whatever reason) trying to get my windows machines (laptop and desktop) to work properly. I never had that problem with MY Mac or all of the Macs I ran in my university media lab. You can deny it if you want but it is true.

                                                    MACS WORK BETTER.
                                                    • 23. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                      >Macs work better and more consistently.

                                                      My experience differs.
                                                      • 24. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                        Harm Millaard Level 7
                                                        > Macs work better and more consistently.

                                                        Sure, since it is only one configuration. There are no options to expand beyond the basic functionality. The same applies to PP, it works better and more consistently if you only feed it DV AVI type2 files. If you feed it anything else, you need to know what you are doing or you are in for trouble, as demonstrated by numerous posts on these fora. Luckily with Mac you don't have the option to add components, since the strictly controlled hardware and OS does not give that opportunity.

                                                        Mac is great for people with big wallets and a lack of technical expertise. PC is great for people with smaller wallets and/or specific needs.

                                                        MACS DON'T WORK BETTER. The user is limited to DO AS YOU ARE TOLD. If that works for you, great. If you want anything else or more than the standard there just is no alternative for a PC.

                                                        A thin client does not work better than a PC, it only accepts very limited modifications and adjustments making it relatively fool proof in comparison to a PC. In a way MAC is comparable to a thin client.
                                                        • 25. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                          Bob Ramage Level 1
                                                          The most expandable computer I have ever owned is a Mac Pro, a powerful workstation which costs less than $3K. Windows-based workstations from Dell and HP cost considerably more for the same hardware. And of course the buyer has to suffer with Windows. The only thing I can't do with this machine is swap out the motherboard and CPU. Everything else is upgradable. In fact, it is designed for users to upgrade components simply and easily even if they lack technical expertise. Apple-certified 3rd party RAM is very affordable.

                                                          The simple truth is that Macs DO work better. The statistics and customer loyalty bear this out. They also hold their value well. Try and buy a used Mac and you'll see what I mean. When you decide to upgrade, your older machine will still be worth something. Not so much with a Windows PC.
                                                          • 26. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                            Harm Millaard Level 7
                                                            That shows you do not really know about expandability. For example hot swappable (triple) redundant PS, hot swappable fans, teamed NIC's, 12 hot swappable disk bays, multiple BR/DVD burners, all in the same chassis, water or PWM cooling, in an ESX domain with virtualization for Exchange, file and printer servers and VPN's with jumbo packet support and iSCSI NAS capability.

                                                            Once you learn that, come and talk again.
                                                            • 27. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                              Bob Ramage Level 1
                                                              I'm talking about an editing workstation - not a server.
                                                              • 29. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                Bob Ramage Level 1
                                                                I would love to see a Linux version of CS4. Don't know if it would really be viable though, given the nature of the community. I installed Ubuntu on my "old" computer. Great for office apps and web surfing but not much else. Outstanding for servers, of course.
                                                                • 30. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                  Level 1
                                                                  >The simple truth is that Macs DO work better.

                                                                  I will never agree with you. I use both and prefer the PC in every instance.
                                                                  • 31. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                    AsianOcean.com Level 1
                                                                    Wandering from PC land when I work on a Mac I find myself either lost or constrained. I can't find 'anything' on a Mac unless it is on the desktop. I know where almost everything on a PC is and I can arm-twist it to do almost anything I want. You work for Mac and do whatever it let's you do. PC will work for YOU, if the programs are coded right (unlike CS4 PremPro and Encore) and you know where you are at any given time.
                                                                    Working on a Mac I always feel that it's meant for kids who can't think logically and have to be spoon-fed. Now, if only PC had a videoediting program that gave good SD pictures from a Sony EX1 HD ;)
                                                                    • 32. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                      Bob Ramage Level 1
                                                                      You can get excellent SD results from the EX1 using PPro CS4. Edit in HD as normal using the applicable pre-set. When you export media to SD select progressive output and make sure to check "use maximum render quality" in the panel menu icon on the right side.
                                                                      • 33. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                        don solomon Level 1
                                                                        Customer loyalty proves nothing. Look at how many loyal Adobe Premiere users howl every time a new version appears (justifiably 90% of the time).

                                                                        Stock Dell and HP configurations are the worst comparisons you could have found! Those are straw men for you to knock over.

                                                                        Used iMacs are to be had anywhere for a song--there's a good comparison for Dell and HP, by the way. I don't argue that Mac Pro isn't a better, higher quality line.

                                                                        Remember the latest major Mac OS upgrade--headaches everywhere initially. I was on a contract editing job at the time--the in house ITs were pulling their hair out. I spent a lot of paid time twiddling my thumbs for a couple of months.

                                                                        A well designed built from precisely chosen components PC--for video, Image editing, whatever the end use is--and I emphasize
                                                                        WELL DESIGNED--by someone who knows what they are doing is every bit as reliable as a MAC Pro.

                                                                        My PC problems are software problems (Thanks Adobe, and others) not Machine problems. Premiere CS4 runs without a single hiccup on my PC--beyond known bugs or half assed features--not one BSOD, system caused hang, nothing. Very stable apps, like Edius Pro 5 for example, or AE, smoke on this machine.

                                                                        I will grant you that FCP blows the socks off of Prem CS4 as a sophisticated productivity app. But that is another Mac Pr vs stock Dell or HP type class comparison. Not in the same class.
                                                                        • 34. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                          AsianOcean.com Level 1
                                                                          Thanks Bob, but there in lies the problem. PPro CS4 puffs, stutters and crashes all day with HDV (EX1 SP), not even full 1920. I can't proceed any further, in an almost state of the art machine.
                                                                          • 35. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                            Bob Ramage Level 1
                                                                            Bala, you should probably get rid of Windows 7 Beta and install Vista 64. It's supposed to be the best Windows OS for CS4.
                                                                            • 36. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                              don solomon Level 1
                                                                              Ditto that, Bob,

                                                                              Vista 64 SP1 has been flawless with CS4. As I said above my beefs with CS4 are not machine related. I hear great initial responses about W7, but it is for sure that apps are not yet fully tuned to it, nor is it set in stone yet either.

                                                                              It only makes identifying problems with software more tricky if the OS may also be the culprit, or a combination, in some cases.
                                                                              • 37. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                                Level 1
                                                                                What was the question???!!!
                                                                                • 38. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                                  AsianOcean.com Level 1
                                                                                  Thanks, Bob and Don. I am using Win7 64 bit only as an experiment and it works great! I use the same machine as XP 32 bit for my work. I guess I will wait for Win7 to release, dreadful comments about Vista all over the place doesnt make me feel good to migrate to Vista.
                                                                                  • 39. Re: Adobe, CS4 is not ready for release.
                                                                                    AsianOcean.com Level 1
                                                                                    The thread started as a comment, not a question, that PP CS4 is not ready for release :)
                                                                                    Then we went into how good FCP is and how costly Mac is.
                                                                                    Next we will rant about how bad/good the stimulus package is going to be (for CS4) ;)
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