31 Replies Latest reply on Feb 22, 2010 4:38 PM by the_wine_snob

    Alter leading of a range of text in a title?

    Level 1
      I thought you were supposed to be able to do this.
      How do you alter the leading of just two lines of text within a title text box without affecting the leading of all the other lines of text within the text box?

      I can alter the kerning of a few lines of text w/o affecting the other lines of text, but I can't to this with leading.

      Is this a bug? Is this not a feature? Am I doing something wrong?

      I select a couple of lines of text and then adjust the leading by changing the leading number. By doing this, however, the leading of the entire text box changes.

      Please help!
      thanks!
        • 1. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          You can't. You'll need multiple text boxes.
          • 2. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
            Level 1
            I can't believe such a basic feature like this was left out - especially since other Adobe products have this feature. The irony is that Premiere Elements 7 has this ability and it would seem that the "Pro" version does not.

            http://help.adobe.com/en_US/PremiereElements/7.0/WS05399700-031F-4e76-8273-57455A32DD98.ht ml
            • 3. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
              Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP
              Help in CS3 and CS4 say it is possible. But (CS3) it does not adjust per line. Note that the links that open the explanations for properties are broken on the web version of the CS3 help page.

              This would work if you could select part of a paragraph (you can) without having the whole text box selected (you can't).

              A common error is thinking you have "paragraph" text (when you resize the surrounding text box the text reflows) and you actually have a text object box (when you resize it, the text scales/distorts). leading per line only works (according to help) in paragraph text. Except that it doesn't.

              Apparently, it doesn't work in CS4 either. Jaxim, can you confirm this by being sure you are using paragraph text? (Make the text box first, then type in it.)
              • 4. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                shooternz Level 6
                Use a "baseline shift" on selected text instead of leading.
                • 5. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                  the_wine_snob Level 9
                  For involved Titles, I have found that a combo of Illustrator & Photoshop to work better, than the Titler in Premiere. It's fine for simple Titles, and has quite a bit of power with basic Shapes, etc., but falls behind the other two programs.

                  Hunt
                  • 6. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                    rondemarse Level 1

                    12 months later, has this still not been addressed or dealt with?

                     

                    If there's not a patch or a workaround or some sort of logical solution, this is unbelievable.  How can you have a title tool that's this sophisticated, and just completely ignore leading for individual lines?  Unfathomable.  It would be like a keyboard manufacturer just forgetting to put a "w" on their keyboards.  "Sorry about that guys.  But hey - all the other keys work great!  "

                     

                    I imagine there are other professionals out there that need to create titles with some sense of style and control.  How do you guys work around this (unelievable/ridiculous/unfathomable) Adobe oversight?  Is there an easy way to create titles in an external program and import them?

                     

                    I teach this software at the university level, and I routinely tell students how strong Premiere's title tool is - especially compared to other NLE applications.  But this is absolutely baffling to me.  How could they leave this out - and then never bother to fix it.  Infuriating...

                    • 7. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                      Most professionals use Photoshop and maybe AI for major Titling.

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                        Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Why not use Baseline Shift that can be used on seperate lines.

                        Otherwise file a feature request

                        https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

                        • 9. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                          rondemarse Level 1

                          So if I wanted to create 200 lines of rolling titles, I'd just create a super-long PSD file?  Is there a good solid workflow, to bring it in and make it work?  Or is it just scrolled with the motion effects?  I'm not looking for very elaborate or effects-heavy titles - just titles with spacing that I can control.

                           

                          Baseline shift doesn't help, since it doesn't affect any of the subsequent lines.  If I want to create a bigger gap between lines, baseline shift will just crowd the next line.  The only workarounds I could come up with are dozens of overlapping text boxes, which creates huge headaches if I want to change anything later.  Plan B was to create lots of in-between blank lines, resized to fit my preferred Leading.

                           

                          I submitted a "Bug Report" - thanks for the link.  I wasn't sure if it was a "Bug Report" or a "Feature Request", but it seems like such a huge oversight, I think "Bug" is the best deisgnation.  If Logitech left the "W" keys off their keyboards, I wouldn't consider that a new feature request...

                           

                          Morty

                          • 10. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                            shooternz Level 6
                            I imagine there are other professionals out there that need to create titles with some sense of style and control.  How do you guys work around this (unelievable/ridiculous/unfathomable) Adobe oversight?  Is there an easy way to create titles in an external program and import them?

                             

                             

                            Yes.  Its called After Effects ...especially for a 200 line rolling title ( which you are going to find difficult to build in PPRO Titler anyway)

                             

                            BTW If  I was doing a simple title in Titler that needed some individual line spacing ...I would use a combination of Leading and Baseline shift .  I do have need to do this on occasion because one of my clients uses a special (weird) typeface that requires a lot of control for it to look right on screen. (Its not body copy I might add)

                             

                            Other thing , and I am certrainly no typesetter or typographer and I am prepared to be corrected.... but how often does one see a page or a title where the leading actually varies line by line (unless for effect)

                            • 11. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                              rondemarse Level 1

                              I think AfterEffects is overkill for something like this.  It's a classic single-font, white-on-black title roll.  200 sounds like a lot of lines, but it's really not.  They go by pretty fast.

                               

                              Again, baseline shift doesn't create or contract space - it just moves the line between the preceding and following lines.  Not a solution.

                               

                              I think you'd be surprised how often leading is adjusted - especially on a title roll.  If I want a slight gap between my executive producers and my associate producers - leading.  If I want a bigger gap between my electric department and my audio department - leading.  If I want larger fonts to not have unnaturally large gaps beneath them - leading.

                               

                              For my current project, I just used extra lines (usually very small) as a workaround.  It's less than ideal, but it works.  I'm eager to hear how people integrate Photoshop or Illustrator, though.

                              • 12. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Morty, are you CS4?  Just curious.

                                 

                                My workflow is to create the long image in AI.  For some really long rolls, I have had to create multiple images from AI.

                                 

                                I use AE to create the movement.  I have done it with both dynamic link, and also by exporting a file from AE.

                                 

                                I don't recall why that became my preference, but I think it was a combination of vector based from AI (I started this workflow when I had an old copy of AI, AE, and PS) and an easier time calculating the speed to avoid flicker.

                                 

                                I agree that PR should provide the per line leading, but since I don't plan to use it within PR, it is not high priority for me.  I do not expect a fix for CS3, but if CS4 was not fixed (and I assume from this thread that it was not), CS5 should be.

                                 

                                If Dennis checks in on this thread, I'd be curious as to whether he knows of this problem and any plans to correct it.

                                • 13. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                  shooternz Level 6
                                  I think AfterEffects is overkill for something like this. 

                                   

                                  So simple to do in AEFX and you did say you wanted full professional control.

                                   

                                  PS is not great at text, AI is great at text but does not relate easily with Video apps  (because its a publishing app) ...but ...AEFX is designed for VIdeo ,has all the text controls  and does exactly what you are asking for.

                                   

                                  Not sure what the issue is really.

                                   

                                  PPRO Titler is  not really very sophisticated at all in comparison to AEFX ..but it is infinitely superior to anything FCP has built -in.

                                  • 14. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                    Morty,

                                     

                                    So if I wanted to create 200 lines of rolling titles, I'd just create a super-long PSD file? 

                                     

                                    You are correct on creating a very vertical .PSD with your text. Let's just assume that you have an NTSC DV Project. In PS, choose Image New, and then the NTSC DV Preset (either 4:3, or 16:9) with guides. This will yield a 720 x 480 image. Reset your PS Colors to B/W. Go to Image>Canvas and move the marker to the top-center, then increase the vertical to no more than 4000 pixels and choose the black (should be "Background Color") Add/edit your text, as is required. I usually do the text in Word, or WordPerfect, just for SpellCheck, and Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V that into PS. If you have more pixels in the vertical, than you need, just Crop. Save_As a .PSD, to be Imported into PrPro as Footage, unless you have Layers, that you wish to animate independently - then choose Sequence. Once into the Project Panel, drag to the Timeline, and Keyframe Effect>Motion>Position. Done.

                                     

                                    I would like to see Titler grow a bit more robust too, but live fine with it, so long as I have my other Adobe (and some non-Adobe) programs handy. To me, each is just a "tool" in the "toolbox." I have requested full Grouping, SpellCheck and more typography tools. OTOH, if any of these munged up Titler, I would resend my requests in a heartbeat. I look at Titler a bit like I do NotePad - OK for simple stuff, but for wordprocessing I go go WordPerfect. Just another tool.

                                     

                                    Hope that helps,

                                     

                                    Hunt

                                     

                                    Message was edited by: Bill Hunt - added last thought and made two corrections.

                                    • 15. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                      shooternz Level 6

                                      I would love to have a race with you on this one Bill. 

                                       

                                      200 lines of Text animated to scroll from bottom to top over , say ...15 seconds

                                       

                                      Actors in Bold Red

                                      Heads of Departments in Bold White with 20% additional leading

                                      Crew in Normal White

                                      Caterers in Italics Green

                                      Editor in Yellow with a stroke outline

                                       

                                      I would use AEFX using a paste from a doc file then  do the motion move in AEFX.

                                       

                                       

                                      • 16. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                        Craig,

                                         

                                        It's like you grabbing AE at every opportunity. I grab for PS, since I've been using it from ver. 2.5, and on the first day that it hit the PC. IIRC, my S/N was 000-00-003. I use AE, but have to admit that I use other Adobe programs first, until I hit a wall. Personally, I should force myself to go to AE earlier on. That would save me all those CiaB editions for it.

                                         

                                        Now, I do have one problem with your challenge:

                                         

                                        Editor in Yellow with a stroke outline

                                        I'm just not comfortable with that. Who's the AD on this challenge? Besides, you already would have a one day head start...

                                         

                                        I'm not putting AE down. I wish to one day embrace it more. Isn't it great that a creative can come up with great output via different workflows?

                                         

                                        Take care, and I'm still mad that you would not give me the scores on the 2010 Superbowl, being a day ahead. If the Saints had not won, I would still be haunting you...

                                         

                                        Hunt

                                        • 17. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                          rondemarse Level 1

                                          Much appreciated, gentlemen.

                                           

                                          I've always been a little leery of animating text from PS or AI.  Not sure why - I guess I remember all of the flicker and aliasing problems of programs in the past.  I'm happy to hear you're using it successfully, and I'll definitely give it a shot sometime.

                                          shooternz wrote:

                                           

                                          Not sure what the issue is really.

                                          Yeah, Shooter, I know.  AfterEffects is an amazing, efficient piece of software.  And my issue with the PP Titler isn't that it's bad.  In fact, it's the opposite.  Compared to Avid and FCP, I think it's outstanding.  It's just frustrating that it's as respectable as it is, but lacks such a simple feature.  It seems to me that a straightforward, unsophisticated roll like mine would be exactly the kind of thing PP would be able to handle in-house - without the need for another program.

                                           

                                          Just because there are other options doesn't make the question irrelevant.  It would be like PP only allowing one track of audio.  "So simple to do audio in Audition, and you did want full professional control, right?  Not sure what the issue is really."  Really?

                                          • 18. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                            shooternz Level 6

                                            Actually bigmorty...I do understand... really I do .... 

                                             

                                             

                                            Bill on the other hand...

                                             

                                            BTW - I told you the "someone" would win and they did.  (See if ya can track down a Mt Difficulty Pinot Noir )

                                            • 19. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                              If one brings an AI image into PS first (very important in my book), and then works on an image, sized for the Project with good video fonts, I have never had an issue. Most often, I am animating individual Layers, but also do my rolls and crawls from PS. I love the control that Keframing both the fixed Effects, Motion>Position, and many of the rest, and just stay between PS and PrPro. As stated earlier, I should force myself to use AE, even when PS and PrPro work perfectly fine, just so that I can embrace it like Craig (and others) does. Instead, during downtime, I will work through more "lessons" on AE, when I should be just thinking outside my comfort range.

                                               

                                              Since I "grew up" on PS (well, not really, as I was already old, when Adobe released it), I go with my "old friends."

                                               

                                              Good luck,

                                               

                                              Hunt

                                              • 20. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                Well, not a Mt. Difficulty, but I'm having a wonderful Benovia Kohn Vineyard PN tonight with my peppered pork tenderloin. Big Sonoma fruit for the "heat." Gotta' get back to the NZ PN's. I have maintained for a very long time that PN would flourish and in the right hands (not an easy grape to work) would be fabulous for NZ. Let OZ have the Shiraz, and concentrate on PN's and SB's, with some Rieslings thrown in. Unfortunately, in the US we do not get to see some of the better examples of NZ PN. It's only at trade tastings, that I get to see what you guys have been doing. What we find in US distribution is still locked in the mid-90's. Not bad, but not up to par. Still, with those "sneak peaks," I do get to see where the bar is set, and NZ is inching it up. Just not in the US distribution channels. That, to me, is bogus, but US wine distribution is an odd duck. Even after the popularity of Sideways, most really great Central Coast PN's never see the shelves of our wine shops. I have to drive over (easy for me) and bring a Landcruiser full of wines back to AZ.

                                                 

                                                OK, enough wine-talk, as Jeff will be here any minute and split me off to the Lounge, where I belong. Mt. Difficulty eh? Gotta' "KA" with some distributor for the next NZ trade-tasting, and hope that it's there.

                                                 

                                                Hunt

                                                • 21. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                  shooternz Level 6

                                                  To be debated:

                                                   

                                                  I wonder if doing a motion move via keyframes of text or a graphic for that matter in AEFX is superior to doing the same in PPRO.

                                                   

                                                  I believe that AEFX has something called "interpixel interpolation" where as PPRO does not.

                                                  • 22. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                    Hm-m, that could be significant. Would be interesting. Guess that it's time to break my "comfort zone," and explore. Still, I could not beat you, 'cause you're already a day ahead of me...

                                                     

                                                    Take care, but you got me to thinking. I can always use more time "behind the wheel," so why not now?

                                                     

                                                    Hunt

                                                    • 23. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                      shooternz Level 6

                                                      You will nail it Bill.

                                                       

                                                      Try the little exercise from this thread.   Happy to mentor you on it.

                                                      • 24. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                        Craig,

                                                         

                                                        You are so-o-o very kind.

                                                         

                                                        What is it now - Wednesday, Feb. 24 now?

                                                         

                                                        Sleep well, or maybe enjoy a beautiful Thursday - whatever...

                                                         

                                                        Just think of yourself as "Master," and I am but the humble "butterfly," sitting by your knee.

                                                         

                                                        Hunt

                                                        • 25. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                          shooternz Level 6
                                                          Just think of yourself as "Master," and I am but the humble "butterfly," sitting by your knee.

                                                           

                                                          You will be known as "Grasshopper" from hence forward thru' your AEFX education..

                                                           

                                                          Lesson 1 was RGB  or CMYK for .psd into PPRO

                                                           

                                                          Test: What is the answer Grasshopper?

                                                          • 26. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                            rondemarse Level 1

                                                            shooternz wrote:

                                                             

                                                            To be debated:

                                                             

                                                            I wonder if doing a motion move via keyframes of text or a graphic for that matter in AEFX is superior to doing the same in PPRO.

                                                             

                                                            I believe that AEFX has something called "interpixel interpolation" where as PPRO does not.

                                                            I'm eager to hear the results of this.  I've always warned students that effects work in PP, Avid or FCP is generally less sophisticated (with less attention to detail) than AE - especially when it comes to interpolation.  I've kind of assumed that later editions of PP would match AE on identical effects - because why wouldn't they just duplicate the process?  But my leading issue convinces me - if nothing else - that this isn't the case.  Obviously, AI and PP aren't using the same text editing engine, so why assume that PP and AE are interpolating the same way?

                                                             

                                                            Anyway, great proposed comparison.  If someone takes you up on it, I'm eager to hear (or see) the results.

                                                             

                                                            Also, I can't speak to NZ pinot noir - just can't afford to try enough of the good ones or experiment much.  But nothing compares to the NZ sauvignon blancs.  My wife didn't think she liked white wine until we discovered Drylands and Kim Crawford.

                                                            • 27. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                              shooternz Level 6

                                                              I will do a test over the next couple of days and post it up somewhere.

                                                               

                                                              EDIT : I mean a test between AEFX and PPRO...not a wine taste test ( I do that every night)

                                                              • 28. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                                Dag Norum Level 2

                                                                Craig,

                                                                 

                                                                When you do your test in AE, you may also want to test an expression for the position (in case the "subpixel-thing" doesn't work so well).

                                                                 

                                                                The expression:

                                                                 

                                                                [Math.round(position[0]),Math.round(position[1])]

                                                                 

                                                                That will make sure things (such as text) is moved one whole pixel, which sometimes is nice when it comes to interlaced displays.

                                                                 

                                                                Dag

                                                                • 29. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                                  shooternz Level 6

                                                                  Thanx Dag

                                                                   

                                                                  Interesting and I will try that.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                                    Dag Norum Level 2

                                                                    You're welcome!

                                                                     

                                                                    I got it from somebody in the AE forum long time ago. PS! It does not always work well on zooming.

                                                                     

                                                                    To Hunt:

                                                                     

                                                                    The day I discovered that AE is a sort of "PS on wheels", I have never regretted all the hours used to learn to master the beast (aka AE). Well, to MASTER it, I'm still far away from, but I find myself treating many stills in AE (having for example Magic Bullet Looks there), as well as doing a lot of other fun stuff (motion graphics).

                                                                     

                                                                    Dag

                                                                    • 31. Re: Alter leading of a range of text in a title?
                                                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                      Dag,

                                                                       

                                                                      As always, you bring a smile to my face - even if you married the second best young lady in the US - you Norseman you!

                                                                       

                                                                      Yeah, I need to just force the issue more often. I'd be better off for it. With you and Craig pushing AE, and Colin trying to hide my Track Mattes from me, it's only a matter of time, before I relent.

                                                                       

                                                                      Thanks for the Expression,

                                                                       

                                                                      Hunt