1 2 Previous Next 41 Replies Latest reply on Nov 23, 2009 2:49 PM by Jim_Simon

    CS4 and 24pa footage

    skeeze Level 1
      I have a DVX100a and want to use the 24pa format, but it is not acting quite right. I shoot the footage in 24pa mode, start a new project and select the 24P preset. After importing the 24pa footage into the project window, it has properties of 29.97 fps.
      File Path: I:\vidproc\24pa Footage\2007 xmas.avi
      Type: AVI Movie
      File Size: 13.2 GB
      Image Size: 720 x 480
      Pixel Depth: 32
      Frame Rate: 29.97 (24p)
      Source Audio Format: 48000 Hz - 16 bit - Stereo
      Project Audio Format: 48000 Hz - 32 bit floating point - Stereo
      Total Duration: 01:02:08:15
      Average Data Rate: 3.6 MB / second
      Pixel Aspect Ratio: 0.9091

      If I go frame to frame each one is fine, no interlacing, but I want it to be 24fps so I can create 24p DVD's. I right click, choose interpret footage and then select Remove 24p DV Pulldown, which then changes the frame rate option to read "Use Frame Rate from File: 23.976. This sure sounds good, but when I go back to the monitor window and play frame by frame there is a lot of interlacing.

      So...what is the best way to edit this video if my goal is to get it to 24P DVD format?

      Thanks in advance!
        • 1. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          >Frame Rate: 29.97 (24p)

          Does it actually say exactly that, or did you add the parenthetical? I ask because 24pA actually is recorded at 29.97 fps. The Advanced 3:2 cadence simply allows Premiere to remove the added frames/fields required by the DV specification for recording onto tape.

          HD cameras often have a "Native" mode, meaning only the original 24 frames are actually recorded, but all SD 24p cameras must add pulldown of some sort to get the 24 fps up to the video standard of 30 fps.
          • 2. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
            Dan Isaacs Level 2
            Are you editing in a 24p sequence?
            • 3. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
              TradeWind Level 3
              In the timecode in the source window, does it show 29 frames in a second or 24? That should answer it for you.
              • 4. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                skeeze Level 1
                Thanks for the responses. Jim, yes that is exactly what the properties state the video is from the Project tab.
                File Path: D:\Videos\OnlocationTest\Clips\Speech Test.avi
                Type: AVI Movie
                File Size: 86.6 MB
                Image Size: 720 x 480
                Pixel Depth: 32
                Frame Rate: 29.97 (24p)
                Source Audio Format: 48000 Hz - 16 bit - Stereo
                Project Audio Format: 48000 Hz - 32 bit floating point - Stereo
                Total Duration: 00;00;23;24
                Average Data Rate: 3.6 MB / second
                Pixel Aspect Ratio: 0.9091

                In reading the documentation, it looks like it expects it to be a true 24FPS in this preset and it is adding frames to make it a 29.97, but what I thought it was supposed to do if it detects a 24pa format is to remove the frames that are not necessary and make it a frame rate of 23.97, but it doesn't do that automatically.

                In the interpret footage dialog, when the option to remove 24p DV Pulldown is selected the "Use Frame Rate from File: 29.97" changes to "Use Frame Rate from File: 23.976", which would imply that it is going to remove those extra frames when you click ok, but when you play it back after doing this there is a lot of interlacing, especially if you go frame to frame.

                Christian, prior to checking "interpret footage" in the source window the timecode reads 00:00:00:00 and if I advance ahead frame by frame, it counts up to 29 and then goes to 1:00, then it counts up to 29 again and goes to 2:00, which would indicate that it still thinks there are 29 frames per second. When I apply the remove 24p from the interpret footage option, it then counts up to 23 and then goes to 1:00, then 23 more and 2, etc., which would indicate that it is now 24fps. However, the video frames in the source monitor are very interlaced and most descernable lines (i.e. edge of a shirt) are very jagged, which implies to me it is removing the wrong frames! I don't get it...any help would be appreciated.
                • 5. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                  skeeze Level 1
                  Ok, I think I have a pretty good idea of what is happening now. I noticed in the footage I am using that I am moving the camera around pretty fast, which is a no no when shooting in 24pa, so what I am thinking is interlacing may be "blur". So I took some footage that I used a tripod. Prior to using that footage however, I imported the same 24pa footage into after effects and lo and behold it actually tells you what it is doing. First of all, when you bring it into the project panel (in a comp that is set for 23.976 fps), it automatically detects the footage and in the description of the footage it states 23.976 fps, 3:2 Removal (WWWWS-24P Advance) and in the preview window it clearly shows a frame rate of 23.98. If you advance frame by frame it counts to 23 and then goes to the next second, so clearly it knows what footage it is dealing with.

                  The strange part about AE though is if you go into interpret footage, in the Frame Rate area it shows "Conform to frame rate: 29.97" and in the Fields and Pulldown area it specifies to remove the pulldown with WWWWS - 24P Advance, and it says the effective framerate is 23.976 fps, which is a little confusing, but that is ok because we know it is processing it correctly.

                  So lesson here is, you don't have to use interpret footage in AE, it is smart enough to detect it and do what it is supposed to do.

                  If you import the footage into Premiere Pro first however, you must use the interpret footage dialog box and select the checkbox to remove the frames first so PPro processes it correctly at 24fps. If you don't PPRo thinks it is going at 29 fps and if you choose to leave it in 29 fps, if you bring it inot AE with dynamic link, PPro will leave it at 29 fps, but AE interprets it automatically and converts the comp to 23.976...which I am sure will be very strange results.

                  So, bottom line, if using 24pa, make sure you use interpret footage to remove the frames in PPro, but don't use it in AE and don't move the camera fast!
                  • 6. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                    >this preset...is adding frames to make it a 29.97

                    Technically, the camera is doing that.

                    >in the source window the timecode reads 00:00:00:00...

                    That's the wrong place to check. The source footage actually is 29.97 fps. When recording to DV tape, that's the only choice.

                    Rather, add a clip to the timeline (without any Interpret Footage mods) and check the Program Monitor's timecode. It should automatically remove the pulldown once in the timeline.
                    • 7. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                      Level 1
                      Does CS4 correctly remove pulldown now for HDV 24PsF footage? That was one of the pitfalls of CS3.
                      • 8. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                        joshtownsend Level 2
                        In CS3 if picked the 24pa project it took out the frames for you. Now in CS4 you have to 'interpret footage' and add the checkmark for 24pa. Makes no sense at all. I use an HVX and I'm having the same issues. The new 'media browser' is great but confuses things because you can't drag straight to the timeline.

                        Actually if you place the clip in the timeline then go into the project window and 'interpret footage - check the 24pa' it won't affect the clip already in the timeline. You have to drag it from the project window to the timeline. And if you didn't set in or out points in the source window and trimmed it in the timeline your screwed.
                        • 9. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                          Premiere Pro, since version 2.0, has been able to remove 24p pulldown automatically - whether standard or advanced - on a 24p timeline, whether 1080 or 720 or 480. Because of the new Project setting/Sequence setting architecture, that ability is temporarily gone, and 24p footage shot "over-60" - that is, in a 59.94 stream with pulldown - must have its pulldown manually removed by using the "Interpret Footage/Remove 24p Pulldown7quot; function. This can be done to all the clips in the Project window at once, but its still a change for those who have enjoyed worry-free automatic removal since PP 2.0, and especially to those currently using 1080p P2 material in PP 3.1 or later. But, as I said, this is meant to be a temporary change and the plan is to return the automatic pulldown removal functionality to 24p Sequences with the 4.0.2 update in early 2009.
                          • 10. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                            joshtownsend Level 2
                            EARLY 2009!!!!!!!!!!

                            Unbelievable. Two steps forward one step back.

                            New feature MEDIA BROWSER it saves steps by being able too browse P2 files without importing them. BUT IF YOU SHOT 24PA it'll look interlaced in the browser and you have to drag it to the project file THEN interpret footage THEN pick your in and out points.

                            It's as fast to drag a whole folder of clips in then just erase the ones you don't want. This was a godsend a few years ago and they really dropped the ball. If was a major deal I would be sympathetic but this is stupid!

                            Sorry hearing that made me mad. At least I can save clip to AE..........
                            • 11. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                              >you have to drag it to the project file THEN interpret footage THEN pick your in and out points.

                              Quite honestly, that's how I might have expected it to work anyway. I myself saw the Media Browser as sort of a built-in Bridge, a way to get a quick look at the clips before import, but still fully expecting you to import the ones you want and edit normally from there. (Opening in Source Monitor, setting In/Out, adding to sequence.)

                              Manually Interpreting the clips after Import seems but a small and temporary inconvenience given all the other improvements across the suite.
                              • 12. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                joshtownsend Level 2
                                funny I saw 24pa working without the extra steps just it did in Cs3 and CS2.
                                • 13. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                  And it will again. Hence the 'temporary' qualifier.
                                  • 14. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                    Level 1
                                    Gee, I've never known any version of Premiere to properly remove pulldown. All of the research I've read on it says Premiere can't do it. My experience seems to bear that out, with 24Pa footage that has that funny jerky cadence that gives one a fast case of vertigo.

                                    'Was hoping that'd be addressed in CS4.
                                    • 15. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                      joshtownsend Level 2
                                      I've been shooting 24pa for what 5 years now, since the dvx100 came out. Premiere WILL work like it should with 24pa, you just have extra steps in CS4, but once you get it, it works exactly the same as ppro 2.0, CS3, Sony Vegas, Canopus Edius, Final Cut, Avid ect.

                                      If you don't like 24pa footage (which is the same as film BTW) don't shoot it. It's not like dozens of 24p cameras haven't had proper pulldown in NLE's over the past 5 years.
                                      • 16. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                        Level 1
                                        24P works fine as it should on my XDCams, but my HDV cams shoot this phoney "24Pa" with pullup to 59.94i, which doesn't play right in Premiere.

                                        I've researched it extensively and the answers I got was because Sony and Canon won't set the 24p flags on their prosumer cams, so Premiere has no way to 'guess' the cadence. So 24Pa mode is a useless marketing gimmic on Sony and Canon prosumer cams.
                                        • 17. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                          skeeze Level 1
                                          I have not found that to be true, I have used 24Pa on my DVX100a for quite some time. After Effects actually does a better job right now of automatically determining how to deal with it, but if you manually interpret the footage in PPro you should be fine. The biggest advantage is that when you apply all the affects it takes in post to make something look film-like it chews up a ton of compute cycles, so if your original footage is in 24Pa mode you start off with that look to begin with, but you have to be careful how you shoot (i.e. very slow pans, focusing on the DVX is not as good, etc.).
                                          • 18. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                            joshtownsend Level 2
                                            ppro CS3 worked fine with my Panasonic HVX-200 and before my dvx-100. CS4 it just a pain in my 'just a few more clicks' ***.
                                            • 19. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                                              >I have not found that to be true

                                              Mark's comments were in relation to shooting MPEG compressed HD media, David, which uses codes embeded in the signal (flags) instead of real frames to play electronic trickery with the source footage. With the Panasonic's DV footage, the 24p situation is very different (and much better, in my view) as it adds independant frames/fields to the original, which are later very easily removed.

                                              Panasonic's DVCPRO HD is even better still, as it records only the actual 24 frames in Native modes. No pulldown or flags required.
                                              • 20. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                adriun

                                                JSS1138 wrote:

                                                 

                                                >in the source window the timecode reads 00:00:00:00...

                                                That's the wrong place to check. The source footage actually is 29.97 fps. When recording to DV tape, that's the only choice.

                                                Rather, add a clip to the timeline (without any Interpret Footage mods) and check the Program Monitor's timecode. It should automatically remove the pulldown once in the timeline.

                                                 

                                                I have a DVX100b and I'm noticing the same thing when I use the DV 24pa project setting, and in the Project window (top left) it reads the .avi file as being 29.97, but I captured in 24pa. I read somewhere that SD cameras capture 29.97 but mark what frames are 24p, so NLE's know how to remove the frames to make it 23.976.

                                                 

                                                So I tried adding a clip to the time line, as Jim suggested and in the Info tab (the one on the bottom left, not top left) it says 23.976 for that selected clip in the timeline.

                                                 

                                                Is this it then? I should be good to export in 23.976 for DVD? The only other medium I'll be presenting this on is for the web. It seems that interpreting the footage before hand is unnecessary, but this is also why I'm posting, so I can get confirmation of either method.

                                                 

                                                Can anyone put a final say on this?

                                                 

                                                Cheers!

                                                • 21. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                  tclark513 Level 3

                                                  Do you have a red render line above the clip when you put it in the timeline?  If so its the wrong preset.  It should not need rendering if it is the correct sequence settings.

                                                  • 22. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                    adriun Level 1

                                                    tclark513 wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Do you have a red render line above the clip when you put it in the timeline?  If so its the wrong preset.  It should not need rendering if it is the correct sequence settings.

                                                     

                                                    Yes, in fact I do see a red render line. I assumed that it was because it was removing pulldown from the 29.97 footage. When I right click and get the properties on a clip already in the timeline it says: Frame Rate: 29.97 (24p)

                                                     

                                                    The Preset I am using is under the DV - 24P folder, Widescreen 48kHz.

                                                     

                                                    Which one should I be using?

                                                    • 23. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                      tclark513 Level 3

                                                      Try a regular ntsc 29.97 preset and see if you get a red line.  I think your 24p footage is wrapped in a 60i stream.

                                                      • 24. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                        adriun Level 1

                                                        I made a new sequence using the 29.97 NTSC preset, and now when I move a clip to the timeline there is no red render line. But does this mean I'm losing the whole 24p effect? Common sense tells me yes, but just want to make sure I'm not confusing myself.

                                                         

                                                        Thanks =)

                                                        • 25. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                          Ignore the red line.  Use a 24p sequence.

                                                          • 26. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                            adriun Level 1

                                                            Gotcha.

                                                             

                                                            On a related note, I have some panning footage shot in 24pa, and it was rather fast. Placing this footage int he 24p timeline makes it choppy. Is there anyway to keep the smoothness? How do how do pros get around this when shooting short or feature films?

                                                             

                                                            Thanks.

                                                            • 27. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                              Is there anyway to keep the smoothness?

                                                               

                                                              Reshoot and slow down the pan.

                                                               

                                                              How do how do pros get around this when shooting short or feature films?

                                                               

                                                              They shoot slow pans.

                                                              • 28. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                tclark513 Level 3

                                                                JSS1138 wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Ignore the red line.  Use a 24p sequence.

                                                                Ignore this information...it is wrong...

                                                                 

                                                                You have it correct in the 29.97 preset with NO red render line.  The camera puts the 24p in a 60i stream.  You will not lose the 24p because it's already there with the flags.  Its like any other camera that records 24p in 60i.

                                                                 

                                                                The only time you use a 24p sequence is when its true 24p with the flags in the stream to remove the extra frames.

                                                                 

                                                                That's why you are getting extra choppiness.  Its the wrong preset.

                                                                • 29. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                  The only time you use a 24p sequence is when its true 24p with the flags in the stream to remove the extra frames.

                                                                   

                                                                  According to the poster, it IS 24pA footage.

                                                                   

                                                                  That's why you are getting extra choppiness.  Its the wrong preset.

                                                                   

                                                                  He did not say anything about playback choppiness, only about the frame rate Premiere was seeing.  (The pan issue is another matter, and is unavoidable for anything shot at 24 fps, even using real film.)

                                                                  • 30. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                    Jim,

                                                                     

                                                                    The DVX100 records to tape, which means it will wrap everything in a 60i wrapper, whatever you throw at it. The proof is in the green/red line. The camera does not adjust tape speed depending on recording mode. It uses a constant tape speed, hence the 60i wrapper. tClark is completely correct.

                                                                    • 31. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                      I do not disagree with anything you said, Harm.

                                                                       

                                                                      But Premiere knows enough to throw out the extra frames required to turn the 24p 'capture' into a 30i 'recording' for tape, thus restoring it to the original 24p that was captured by the CCDs.

                                                                       

                                                                      That's what the 24p sequence preset is for.

                                                                      • 32. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                        tclark513 Level 3

                                                                        JSS1138 wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        I do not disagree with anything you said, Harm.

                                                                         

                                                                        But Premiere knows enough to throw out the extra frames required to turn the 24p 'capture' into a 30i 'recording' for tape, thus restoring it to the original 24p that was captured by the CCDs.

                                                                         

                                                                        That's what the 24p sequence preset is for.

                                                                        The 24p preset is for cameras that include the flags that tell premiere to toss out the extra frames (native 24p Canon HV40)  If I'm not mistaken the DVX100 has both shooting capabilities...when he chose the 29.97 preset that had NO red render bars is correct for the mode he was shooting in.  If he would shoot in the other mode then a 24p preset would be correct.

                                                                         

                                                                        As Harm said...the red render bar says it all.

                                                                        • 33. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                          The DVX100 in all iterations can shoot in both 24p, and 24pA.

                                                                           

                                                                          Either can be edited in a 24p or in a 30i sequence.  But the 24p sequence will look better and allow better MPEG encoding.  The red bar may have been caused by something else, such as widescreen/full frame issue.  But the 24p sequence IS the best choice for editing 24pA footage, red bar or no.

                                                                          • 34. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                            Eric Addison User Group Manager

                                                                            I could be wrong here, but the way it was explained to me was that if you shoot in 24p (not 24pa), then put that clip in a 24p timeline, you'll get the red render bar...24p sequences are for 24pa clips. I haven't tested this, but I thought I remember someone from Adobe telling me that.

                                                                             

                                                                            As someone who shots 24p, you need to do slow pans (as mentioned) to cut down on stobbing, and unless you're going out to film, it's always best to edit on a 29.97 timeline.

                                                                            • 35. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                              adriun Level 1

                                                                              Update: I upgraded to the latest Premiere CS4, and now the footage that I had in the project window now shows a fps of 23.976.

                                                                               

                                                                              I read this off the dvxuser site:

                                                                               

                                                                              Currently, in CS4, there is no auto pulldown removal and you must always Intepret Footage in order to do it. Auto removal is supposed to be back in an upcoming update.

                                                                               

                                                                              So now, in my DV - 24p Widescreen 48 kHz preset timeline there is no red render line above the clips.

                                                                               

                                                                              HOWEVER, now that I have upgraded I'm not getting the same results when I export. This is with the same project (DV - 24p Widescreen). I'm not getting the 24p look even though I set my export settings to progressive and 23.967 - its more of a higher fps, video look. I'm comparing this to the a clip I rendered before I upgraded, using the same project. Every export setting I've tried produces the video look, or a choppy video. I'm a bit frustrated.

                                                                               

                                                                              Could the problem be in the capture of the footage? Perhaps I should re-capture with this new upgrade?

                                                                               

                                                                              Cheers for all the help, it is much appreciated.

                                                                              • 36. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                                Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                                Capture is a straight copy type of process, nothing get's altered.

                                                                                 

                                                                                What export settings specifically did you use?

                                                                                • 37. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                                  adriun Level 1

                                                                                  I'll separate them into Video Look and Choppy. The videos that are choppy are only effected in the visuals, not the audio. The audio seems to in sync.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Video Look:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Format: Microsoft AVI

                                                                                  Preset: NTSC DV Widescreen 24P

                                                                                  Video Codec: DV (24p Advanced)

                                                                                  Field Type: Progressive

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Format: Quicktime

                                                                                  Preset: Based on NTSC DV Widescreen 24p

                                                                                  Video Codec: H.264

                                                                                  Frame Rate: 23.976

                                                                                  Field Type: Progressive
                                                                                  Aspect: Square Pixels

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Format: H.264

                                                                                  Preset: Based on Apple TV 480p

                                                                                  Video Codec: MainConcept H.264 Video

                                                                                  Frames: 23.976

                                                                                  Field Order: Progressive

                                                                                  PAR: Square Pixels

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Format: Quicktime

                                                                                  Preset: NTSC DV Widescreen 24p

                                                                                  Video Codec: DV/NTSC 24p

                                                                                  Frames: 23.976

                                                                                  Note: This one had interlacing, probably because I didn't have the option to pick Progressive field order.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Choppy:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Format: H.264

                                                                                  Preset: Based on YouTube Widescreen SD

                                                                                  Codec: MainConcept H.264 Video

                                                                                  Frame rate: 23.976

                                                                                  Field Order: Progressive

                                                                                  PAR: Square Pixels

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Format: H.264

                                                                                  Preset: Based on NTSC DV Widescreen High Quality

                                                                                  Codec: MainConcept H.264 Video

                                                                                  Frame rate: 23.976

                                                                                  Field Order: Progressive

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Format: H.264

                                                                                  Preset: Based on HDTV 720p 23.976 High Quality

                                                                                  Codec: MainConcept H.264 Video

                                                                                  Frames: 23.976

                                                                                  Field: Progressive

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Hope this gives a bit of insight into the problem.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Thanks.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                                    adriun Level 1

                                                                                    Update: I turned off frame blending for each individual clip on the timeline and it seemed to look more like 24p footage. Could this be the culprit?

                                                                                    • 39. Re: CS4 and 24pa footage
                                                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                                      OK.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Maybe one step farther back first.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      What is your intended delivery method?  Internet, DVD, something else?

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