1 2 Previous Next 44 Replies Latest reply on Dec 10, 2008 11:47 AM by shooternz

    Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?

    shooternz Level 6
      Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems? Weird issue.

      eg . One for 'Scrubbing' and the other for 'Playback' in both Timeline and Source Monitor.

      It is possible to Set Peference to External Audio Device (even if there is not one). Scrubbing the timeline works but Playback (Space Bar) will not.

      I am getting truncated audio clips and I can not fathom it. It is truncated in Playback mode. Last word is clipped short.

      Audio clip is a known length and has all the audio. Waveform is displaying all the data (waves).

      Maybe a Driver issue ???? (RealTek HD Onboard)
        • 1. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
          shooternz Level 6
          Who can recommend a Sound Card?

          I can not seem to get a fix for the issue so I must try a Soundcard.

          It is just too weird that scrubbing the clip plays the entire clip and playing it stops a few frames short. This makes any audio editing of a video clip impossible.

          I am reverting to CS3 meantime. No choice.
          • 2. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
            shooternz Level 6
            I have found the culprit. (Its a bug)

            If I Set VIDEO Playback to 'No External Device' the clip plays and scrubs AUDIO properly.

            Think I need a souncard so I can SET Video and AUDIO to External Device.
            • 3. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
              Colin Brougham Level 6
              Craig,

              It's funny that you posted this--I found the same thing myself earlier today. I was ready to chuck my computer through the wall, as I'd never experienced this with CS3.

              I went so far as to download and install the ASIO4ALL drivers, thinking maybe there was some weird latency issue. This solution worked exactly once, and then CS4 was up to its same old tricks, chopping off the end of an audio file. (Incidentally, did you watch the CTI during this phenomenon? It's almost a second ahead of the visual representation of the waveform.)

              So, I reverted back to the "Premiere Pro WDM Sound". Again, same problem. Closed the program, and came back an hour later. This time, no problem--audio plays perfectly. Came back four hours later, and again, no problem. Weird.

              So, I just tested what you posted, about setting Video Playback to No External Device. Well, mine was set to "DV 29.97 blahblahblah", and it was working fine. Weird, again. So, I turned ON my DV camera, and whammo--there's the audio problem again. Turn the camera off--no problem.

              Soooo... what are we looking at? Something wrong with the DV output system? Frankly, this sucks. I'm growing more disenchanted with CS4 by the minute...

              Anyone else able to repeat this problem?
              • 4. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                shooternz Level 6
                EDIT

                Did not see the CTI behaviour at all Colin. It seemed fine.

                Meantime I need the external out put so I will look for a Soundcard to see if that fixes it.
                • 5. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                  joshtownsend Level 2
                  I'm using RealTek HD Onboard. What do I have to do to replicate this problem? I don't understand exactly.
                  • 6. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                    shooternz Level 6
                    You select a DV Device for PLAYBACK>VIDEO (not AUDIO)

                    This affects the Audio playback (except when scrubbing.)

                    BTW Josh - What is latest Driver for RealTek HD Onboard? ( I am confused and could not work out if I found right one.) I hate Driver software upgrades.
                    • 7. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                      joshtownsend Level 2
                      I have audio driver 6.0.1.5667. I only update it when a new one comes out for my motherboard at ASUS. Not sure if it's a general program or motherboard specific (as far as drivers). I have an ASUS P5Q pro BTW, my surround works great.

                      SO are you saying the audio is only an issue when your previewing it dv out the firewire cable? Or anytime you preview using dv?
                      • 8. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                        shooternz Level 6
                        While I am waiting for the Intensity Pro Drivers for CS4...

                        I have an ACDV110 connected via F/wire to provide DV timeline video Playback to a Client Monitor.

                        This requires the Playback Setting - Video External Device ON

                        I have no Audio Card in the comp except the RealTek HD Onboard so I leave Audio External Device OFF. (The Audio is out put to an amplifier /speaker setup from the onboard).

                        The above settings causes the Issue.

                        With Video External Device OFF ...No audio issue but no Video to external monitor either.
                        • 9. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                          joshtownsend Level 2
                          I know Intensity finally began working perfect in CS3 a month (latest patch) before CS4 came out.
                          • 10. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                            Craig,

                            Maybe try setting Audio to external as well and take the RCA from the DV device to the amp, at least as a test.
                            • 11. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                              shooternz Level 6
                              Good idea and I will try it. Thanx for that.

                              Maybe the audio is going out the f/wire to the Video device, (Will report back).

                              Still puzzled why Scrubbing and Playback go different routes?????
                              • 12. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                Colin Brougham Level 6
                                > Maybe the audio is going out the f/wire to the Video device, (Will report back).

                                Craig, that's the crux of the CTI/waveform mismatch I'm seeing. It is almost like the audio is being routed out through the "External Device" (which in my case is a miniDV camera), but it doesn't actually play out through the miniDV. Instead, the audio plays out as "Desktop Audio", but the CTI is visually ahead of the audio waveform that is being played at any given moment in time. This is what you ordinarily see when "External Device Audio" is enabled, because of the delay when sending video and audio out over FireWire.

                                To test to see if you have the same phenomenon, turn on your DV device, enable "External Video Playback" (but not audio) and drop an audio clip anywhere in a timeline. Leave a couple seconds of "emptiness" before the audio clip. Cue up the CTI before the audio clip, and hit play. At least in my case, the CTI hits the beginning of the audio clip, but no audio is immediately heard. About 20-30 frames later, the audio starts playing out over your desktop monitors. When the CTI hits the end of the clip, it will halt playback, and chop off the last few frames of audio. Turn off your DV device (You can leave external video playback turned on), and the problem is gone.
                                • 13. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                  Level 1
                                  >Cue up the CTI before the audio clip, and hit play. At least in my case, the CTI hits the beginning of the audio clip, but no audio is immediately heard. About 20-30 frames later, the audio starts playing out over your desktop monitors.

                                  Something similar happens with the video. If you have the external device selected the CTI jumps 12 frames before it plays smooth. If you turn the external device off the CTI will play from the 1st frame. It's a bit annoying!
                                  • 14. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                    Colin Brougham Level 6
                                    > Something similar happens with the video. If you have the external device selected the CTI jumps 12 frames before it plays smooth. If you turn the external device off the CTI will play from the 1st frame. It's a bit annoying!

                                    Ah yes, I'd noticed that too. Likewise, the CTI jumps ahead after you hit stop/pause. It reminds me of the way CS3 acted when I had a Matrox RT.X2--rampant CTI issues.

                                    Pure wild hypothesis: wasn't there some sort of system update that MS provided for Windows XP that fixed their IEEE 1394 driver? Something about it causing slow downs? I wonder if CS4 somehow overwrites that. I need to check if this happens in CS3 now, after CS4 was installed...
                                    • 15. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                      Level 1
                                      >Pure wild hypothesis: wasn't there some sort of system update that MS provided for Windows XP that fixed their IEEE 1394 driver? Something about it causing slow downs? I wonder if CS4 somehow overwrites that. I need to check if this happens in CS3 now, after CS4 was installed...

                                      I would be curious to hear your results. If this could be fixed that would be great!
                                      • 16. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                        Colin Brougham Level 6
                                        Here's the update I was thinking of:

                                        http://support.microsoft.com/kb/885222

                                        I don't think that has anything to do with this issue, however. Back to the drawing board...
                                        • 17. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                          shooternz Level 6
                                          There used to be an issue with a sys file in SP2 that was rectified by using the old file from SP1 ( which I have in archive - "msdv.sys")

                                          I recently upgrade to SP3 and I bet the file was over written.

                                          I will try it later and report back. (Off to the dentist now)

                                          (will email the file if anyone wants it.)
                                          • 18. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                            Level 1
                                            I am on Vista 64 with the problem.
                                            • 19. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                              shooternz Level 6
                                              >I am on Vista 64 with the problem.

                                              Only god can save you Vista users. :-)
                                              • 20. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                Level 1
                                                >Only god can save you Vista users.

                                                I know what you mean Craig but the good thing is that I can use more ram and have multiple applications open and run each one fairly well. There are pro's and con's to each I guess.
                                                • 21. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                  I just upgraded to Vista on my personal system and I have to say I LOVE it. SP1 was slipstreamed into the install disk, so maybe that's the difference, but I've had no major issues of yet. The install went flawlessly, which I can't say for a recent rebuild of one of my XP Pro systems.

                                                  I love Aero, the new Explorer, the Sidebar, the Switch Between Windows view, the new arrangement of personal folders (Pics, Docs, Videos, etc.), the new Control panel, the built-in Updater, even UAC I like. (It was a recent self-installing virus that instigated the rebuild to begin with.)

                                                  Compared to XP, Vista rocks!
                                                  • 22. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                    Level 1
                                                    >even UAC I like

                                                    You have to be kidding :-)
                                                    • 23. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                      Nope. It pops up only rarely, and exactly when I think it should - when changes are being made at the system level.
                                                      • 24. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                        shooternz Level 6
                                                        >Compared to XP, Vista rocks!

                                                        Now make it boogie with CS4. Let us know how you get on...
                                                        • 25. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                          shooternz Level 6
                                                          Info: XP32., CS4 , ACDV110 Device

                                                          This thing gets really weird! (There definitely is a double system act going on here)

                                                          In CS4 you set the Playback Settings in EITHER the Source or Program Monitor Windows. You can not have it set to EXTERNAL Video Device in Both. One turns off the other. (note we are talking Video device , not Audio Device) This confirms for me a "double system" for playback.

                                                          Issue then arises: Having it set to External Device truncates the audio when Playing back but not when scrubbing.

                                                          I thought I would try the System32/Drivers/msdv.sys (SP1) file.

                                                          It is impossible to change it. It replaces it self automatically with the SP3 vers. of the file which incidentally is the same one as used in SP2. (ie. a problematic version.)

                                                          Does Vista 32/64 use a version of this msdv.sys file? (What vers?)

                                                          Whatever...the issue remains (for me at least) that you can not use an external monitor and edit/playback audio accurately in CS4.
                                                          • 26. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                            Colin Brougham Level 6
                                                            Oh, and it gets better...

                                                            I just tested a DV project from CS3, installed previously and concurrently with my CS4 installation. Lo and behold, the problem exists there as well, exactly the same as in CS4! This NEVER happened prior to CS4.

                                                            My guess is that some driver or module that is installed with CS4 overwrites something either previously installed with CS3, or that is just part of the operating system. Whatever the case may be, it is definitely a problem.

                                                            Aside: I did notice that, when this issue occurs, the video that appears on your external DV device (or monitor hooked to the DV device) is in perfect with the audio coming from the desktop audio monitors, even when the audio option is set to "Desktop Audio". This is NOT the way it used to work, at least in CS3. Audio would always lead the video, in this case.

                                                            Here's a fun test I just discovered: create a synthetic clip of some sort, either a color matte or B&T. Create a new sequence, and drop the synthetic somewhere at about 5 seconds or so. Edit that clip down to exactly one frame. Now, somewhere down the timeline, drop another clip--can be the same one, doesn't matter--just so long as there is at least a few second between it and the previous 1-frame clip. Now, with your DV device turned out, and being fed input from PPro, hit play from before the 1-frame clip, and watch what happens. If your external monitor and computer monitor are close enough together so you can watch them both at once, you'll see the flash frame on the EXTERNAL MONITOR FIRST! I'm about 99.999999% positive that this is an entirely new "feature" of PPro--before, as in CS3, you'd see the flash on the computer monitor first, and then several frames later, you'd see it on the external monitor. I don't have a CS3-only computer right now to test this... Craig? Do you have a CS3-only install?

                                                            The gremlins have gotten into the system...
                                                            • 27. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                              >Playback Settings in EITHER the Source or Program Monitor Windows. You can not have it set to EXTERNAL Video Device in Both.

                                                              This could be part of the new multiple settings per project, since they are now attached to the sequence rather than the whole project. It would make sense that something has changed under the hood.
                                                              • 28. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                shooternz Level 6
                                                                No. It makes no sense in that regard Jim because why does the Program and the Source Monitor use different Playback settings in the same Sequence. Why does Scrub and Playback use a different playback

                                                                I am convinced this has everything to do with the msdv.sys file.

                                                                I know what it did to DV devices previously and was able to fix it with the use of the (SP1) msdv.sys.

                                                                Colin - what OS and what vers of msdv are you running? Can you take a look please.

                                                                I also believe that CS3 is maybe affected by this and think that is also de to XP SP3 Upgrade. Problem for me is that I can not figure how to change the vers in SP3 to test it. ( It does not allow it)

                                                                Jim - can you test this at all? I think you use a DV camera as an Import and Playback device to an external monitor.
                                                                • 29. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                  Level 1
                                                                  Jim-it sounds like you now have a Mac. Hope it works as well!
                                                                  • 30. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                    Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                                    CS3, WinXP SP3, older PC. msdv.sys is dated 4/13/08. Do not have CS4. Do not usually use the external device. Hooked up firewire to camcorder and then A/V to TV.

                                                                    I can't see a difference, but there may be more latency in the LCD than any delay.

                                                                    Sequence with color mattes (blue alternating with green) and tones paired with the green only. In a very basic test, I found it difficult to see any difference between desktop and external speakers or to see any difference in the program monitor and LCD TV.
                                                                    • 31. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                      >why does the Program and the Source Monitor use different Playback settings in the same Sequence.

                                                                      Just throwing out guesses here, but the Source monitor can play back anything, probably using whatever specs are in the file, whereas the sequence has to play back at the specific sequence settings. That's why I can see the two possibly using different playback mechanisms.

                                                                      >can you test this at all?

                                                                      Not yet.

                                                                      >it sounds like you now have a Mac.

                                                                      God no.
                                                                      • 32. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                        shooternz Level 6
                                                                        I need to find out how to change the msdv.sys file so I can test my theory.

                                                                        Any Windows/XP experts around?

                                                                        How do I stop the (instant) automatic reinstall of the msdv.sys when I rename it msdv_old.sys. I can rename it but the OS instantly replaces it with the one that I do not want.

                                                                        I suspect it gets it from the Driver Cache folder. It is not possible to rename or remove the file from this location.
                                                                        • 33. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                          I have that same issue with my "ctfmon" file, which was originally part of Office but later got inserted into SP2 and is certainly not required for an editing rig. No matter what I do, though, damn thing keeps popping back up.
                                                                          • 34. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                            shooternz Level 6
                                                                            I used to be able to do it in SP2 so something has chanaged in SP3.

                                                                            Do you still have an XP system Jim?
                                                                            • 35. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                              Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                              Jim,

                                                                              Go to Control Panel>Regional and Language Options>Languages>Details...

                                                                              In the dialog that opens up, click on the Advanced tab and check the "Turn off advanced text services" check box.

                                                                              Reboot.

                                                                              ctfmon.exe should disappear from your processes list in Task Manager.

                                                                              -Jeff
                                                                              • 36. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                                Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                                                                Craig,

                                                                                Go into Safe Mode and use the Command Prompt to rename the file. It worked for me.

                                                                                -Jeff

                                                                                NB: I didn't try to replace the file, and I used msdv.old for a name, dropping the .sys extension completely.
                                                                                • 38. Re: Why does CS4 use two audio playback systems?
                                                                                  shooternz Level 6
                                                                                  My audio issue is now rectified. (Hopefully no other impacts anywhere else).

                                                                                  Playback and scrubbing now play the entire file when an external video device is selected.

                                                                                  I have Changed the msdv.sys file with the one from XP service Pack 1

                                                                                  This Vers is 5.1.2600.00 (I have this if required by anyone but not sure about the legality of me distributing it?)

                                                                                  Audio and Video now are in synch on both External and PC Monitors (no latency or lag)

                                                                                  I also know that exporting to a tape device (eg Sony DSR-11) will now insert correctly at timecode point (there is an offset for this but that is fine) - untested at the moment because the DSR-11 is connected to my CS2 Suite permanently.

                                                                                  Only way to change the msdv.sys is in Safe Mode as Jeff said.

                                                                                  (Thanx again Jeff)
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