9 Replies Latest reply on Dec 13, 2008 7:26 PM by (Tonpole)

    Does CS4 Have Project Limits?

    Level 1
      Are you able to work with CS4 projects having hundreds of items in them? Here's why I ask:

      I'm experiencing a lot of CS4 crashes when rendering sequences. Many of the crashes get sent back to Adobe and many are Windows "Not Responding" types that have to be manually closed, which Adobe might not get.

      These crashes and hangs are intermittent - that is, for a given sequence after seven or eight tries it may succeed. Once it succeeds its playback is good, meaning all the resources in the sequence are good, and also meaning Premiere Pro CS4 can deal with those resources.

      But small individual projects I made just to test CS4 using a couple of these uncompressed mpeg-2 files seem to always work - I don't remember any of them crashing. They only have a few cuts and dissolves, though.

      The project in question has about 500 items in it. The raw camera files are uncompressed mpeg-2; there are also mov's and a few AE projects. There are maybe 50 sequences, and some sequences are nested into others.

      Now the thing is, I've discovered (when trying to "Render Entire" a sequence that crashes) through trial-n-error that if I shrink the work area of that sequence to a fraction of the size of the entire sequence, it will work. So the workflow is render frames say 1-100, works, move the work area to frames 101-200, render works, move the work area to frames 201-300, render works, etc. until the entire sequence is rendered. When done the sequence will play just fine.

      Is this an indication that CS4 projects have some sort of unstated limit to them? (The machine has 4gb but of course Premiere Pro gets only about half that, but even if it runs out of memory it ought to simply say insufficient memory, or do some paging, or something, but never crash). Are there any other limits I may be running into?
        • 1. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          >The raw camera files are uncompressed mpeg-2

          That's a bit of a contradiction. MPEG is a very aggressive compression method. It's either Uncompressed or it's MPEG, but it can't be both.

          And unless it's coming from an HDV camera, I can see the files themselves possibly being the reason for your issues. Premiere's MPEG capabilities do seem centered around HDV (and now AVCHD). Other types of MPEG files do often cause issues.
          • 2. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
            Level 1
            I'm not sure what your answer to the question is. Yes, a 4gb 9-minute raw camera file is as uncompressed as I can make it; I do let Encore compress them onto DVD later on, though. Perhaps you're overlooking that mpeg is not only an algorithmic standard to encode video and audio, it also describes formats and numerous other variables.

            Secondly, why would the files be "the reason" if CS3 handles them?

            Third, the preset I use for the project is named XDCAM EX which is 1920x1080i PR 1.0 29.97fps, matching the camera's parameters. Wouldn't that be called HDV?

            Before you can argue against mpeg-2, claiming it is "the reason", shouldn't you explain why CS3 works, why a smaller CS4 project works but not this larger project, why rendering chunks of a sequence works but not the entire sequence at once, and also explain why CS4 crashes rather than displaying a diagnostic message or adjusting itself to the situation?
            • 3. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
              Harm Millaard Level 7
              Be as accurate as possible if you have any hope of solving this issue.

              Say for instance: I transferred XDCAM EX HQ material with ClipBrowser 2.0 to my hard disk, imported those clips into PP using a standard XDCAM EX project preset and encounter the following difficulties......

              That narrows it down and makes it easier for others to reply and/or help you. So try again, instead of veering off to the pro's and con's of MPEG encoding.
              • 4. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
                Level 1
                Harm, the question is "Are there any limits to project size"? Are others able to work with projects of any size? I'm trying to troubleshoot the CS4 crashes I experience, and have discovered that a smaller project created in CS4 doesn't experience these crashes, whereas the larger project created in CS3 does. Does that point to a size limit, or what?

                It was someone else who brought up the mpeg issue, but his analysis doesn't make sense given that CS3 doesn't seem to have this problem.

                A project was created in CS3, at one time it had ~515 items. The computer recently had its system disk rebuilt and CS3 is no longer available, only CS4 is installed. That same project, the one created with CS3, was imported into CS4. All utility things can be done successfully in CS4, such as creating new sequences, completely reorganizing folder bins, cuts, deleting files, adding new files, etc. Those things all work. But there is a problem with rendering. The problem is that attempting to render sequences (to get smooth playbacks to assess the work), CS4 often crashes. Note CS3 didn't crash while rendering the very same sequences!

                But, as I explained, if I render small chunks (few frames) at a time, the render is successful. If I make the chunks larger (more frames), the crashes may return. It is tedious rendering a 5-minute sequence 100 frames at a time. Doesn't this rule out worrying about project settings, file types, codecs, etc.?

                I note this project has a much much larger Memory Working Set as shown by Task Manager than a smaller project. Also, the ImportProcessor seems to keep quite a bit of memory, followed by AfterFx. Maybe CS4 has memory leaks. Or maybe it grabs memory it doesn't need now but hangs on to it unecessarily. Or whatever.

                Therefore I want to know whether or not project size has anything whatsoever to do with the problem, or whether I should instead strike that idea from being a candidate.
                • 5. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  >a 4gb 9-minute raw camera file is as uncompressed as I can make it

                  Again, the terminology is incorrect. XDCAM does indeed use MPEG compression; the files are neither Uncompressed nor RAW, both of which have specific meanings. I was just pointing that out.

                  Your original post did not indicate you were using XDCAM media, which Premiere is designed for. I brought up the possibility of the media being the problem with regards to standard definition MPEG, which can cause issues. (But again, the original post didn't specify.)
                  • 6. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
                    Harm Millaard Level 7
                    > a 4gb 9-minute raw camera file is as uncompressed as I can make it

                    A 4 GB XDCAM EX in HQ amounts to around 13 minutes, not 9.
                    I have never heard of or experienced a limitation to project sizes. Mind you, I have never gone as far as some claim to go, with over 20.000 clips in a single project.
                    • 7. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
                      Level 1
                      Thanks Harm and Jim, it's good to know there is no project size limit; I guess we'll just have to see whether the programmers come up with anything.

                      As far as terminology goes, Jim, sorry, I'm a computer person without the video knowledge of you and Harm.
                      • 8. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                        That's no problem. Everybody has to learn that peculiar language if they want to get a fast answer to questions. The more concise the question and use of the proper terminology, the easier it is to give help. So, effectively you help yourself in getting help from others by learning the proper terminology. Don't worry, you'll pick it up in no time, especially if you study the manual.
                        • 9. Re: Does CS4 Have Project Limits?
                          Level 1
                          You can always create separate projects and import them into a master project to avoid problems using hundreds of clips while editing in one project.

                          Or you can use CS3 since that seems to work. This sort of reminds me of a problem i was having with mpeg2 files not playing correctly when i updated from v3.0 to 3.2. It was adobes "mpeg2 improvements" that caused the problems, and no doubt they are now a part of cs4, which makes me want to use it even less.