39 Replies Latest reply on Dec 21, 2008 8:24 PM by (Paul_Del_Vecchio)

    CS4 Track Targeting fan...

    shooternz Level 6
      Heres someone that really likes track targeting as in CS4

      http://pauldv.com/2008/12/17/what-i-likedislike-about-adobe-premiere-pro-cs4-part-1/

      As he shows it, he actually demonstrates how cumbersome it is but he thinks its cool (and I am cool with that if it suits him.)

      I still dont like it because it has impact on other functions such as Paste and Pg DN/Up etc, its slow and its clicky... but ...each to their own.
        • 1. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          Nice. Now I can see what everyone's talking about. And I have to say I am more convinced than ever that for most people and most edits, the new system won't make any difference. And for those times it does make a difference, it may actually improve things.
          • 2. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
            Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
            Are you talking about track targeting, or are you talking about source track mapping?

            Targeting multiple tracks/one track/no tracks does have an effect on Page Up/Page Down, but it can be really efficient if you have one track with many clips and one track with only a few.

            Before, you would have to PgDn/PgUp across every edit in every track; now you can choose which tracks affect timeline navigation.

            I set custom keyboard shortcuts (Ctrl+Alt+1, Ctrl+Alt+2, etc.) to toggle each video tracks targeting on/off. So far, it's pretty fast.

            Source Track Mapping doesn't affect timeline navigation at all.

            EDIT: And Jim, Shift+Home and Shift+End takes you to the beginning/end of the selected clip, regardless of track targeting. ;)
            • 3. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
              shooternz Level 6
              >Are you talking about track targeting, or are you talking about source track mapping?

              Both

              >Nice. Now I can see what everyone's talking about. And I have to say I am more convinced than ever that for most people and most edits, the new system won't make any difference. And for those times it does make a difference, it may actually improve things.

              Wonder why they bothered at all then.
              • 4. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                Hey guys. I just wanted to add something to my video. You can also turn all of it off so that it functions like Premiere CS3. I think it's useful because with track targeting and source channel mapping, you can select exactly where you want the footage to go. I think that's an awesome feature. But you don't have to use it.

                I think it's better to have it than not to have it. It just makes things easier.

                Plus, with track targeting, you can add crossfades to multiple clips on multiple tracks using the CTRL-D (for video) or CTLR+SHIFT+D (for audio) keyboard shortcuts instead of doing it one at a time (b/c in CS3, you couldn't select multiple video and audio tracks at one time).

                It's small stuff but it helps with making your workflow faster... at least, for me anyways. Obviously, it's just my opinion though. Other people might feel differently.

                But anyways, thanks for taking the time out to watch my video. =)
                • 5. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                  shooternz Level 6
                  How do you turn it all off Paul?
                  • 6. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                    Level 1
                    You just don't highlight any of the tracks, or just use dragging and dropping instead of keyboard shortcuts for INSERT and OVERLAY.

                    It's not really "turning it off" but it's as if it doesn't exist if you use Premiere in that way.
                    • 7. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                      joshtownsend Level 2
                      Nice video, some great suggestions. Especially liked the Vegas comparison. In Premiere when lining up clip I find myself sticking my finger on the monitor to mark where I thing the audio should line up. It's main reason I don't do my sound at all in Premiere.

                      I don't use track targeting though but you made some great suggestions. Brilliant idea using a video to show what needs to be improved.

                      Also like how Vegas has a split shortcut. In premiere you have to change tools, right?

                      oh yeah. I also like the way Vegas doesn't erase a track when you drag or drop another track on it. It 'layers it' so whatever is on top is what you see. When I moved to Premiere that was what messed me up the most.
                      • 8. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                        Bob Ramage Level 1
                        When I line up audio in Premiere, I place a marker on the timeline (shortcut *) to indicate where it should line up, then trim back the clip I'm moving to begin at the audio point I want to line up with the marker (if necessary watch the source monitor to see how much time I trimmed). Move the clip and it's beginning will "snap" to the marker. Extend out the beginning of the moved clip again.
                        • 9. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                          Level 1
                          Hi Josh,

                          In Vegas the split shortcut you're talking about is S on the keyboard, right? In Premiere, CTRL+K does the same thing and track targeting allows you to choose which tracks will be affected by the split at the playhead.

                          I was going to mention layering and auto crossfades but I figured that's not for everyone. Vegas treats video like audio in that sense, and I think it's great, but I didn't mention it for some reason.

                          Bob,

                          That's a great way of doing it. It is a few extra steps but it does work. I still would like to be able to see the waveform as I'm moving the clip around in the timeline though. And although it's obviously not a dealbreaker, it's a small thing I think would be nice in Premiere.

                          Thanks again guys! I appreciate you taking the time to watch the video!

                          Paul Del Vecchio
                          Triple E Productions
                          www.PaulDV.com
                          • 10. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                            Level 1
                            I can see how useful selecting multiple tracks can be, but the source track mapping feature is just one (or several) more clicks to perform the same task in CS3. I can select which tracks my video and audio are inserted or overlaid to in CS3. Being able to select multiple tracks would solve the problem if you have several audio channels, but the source track mapping is redundant. Why don't they make it so you have to highlight two tracks on the timeline before you can insert a transition between the two clips? Just about as useful...
                            Source track mapping makes it that a person cannot change the target track without using the mouse...no keyboard shortcut to change the source track mapping. Why does the source track mapping icon have to be on along with the track highlighted in order to insert media from the source window?

                            KMS
                            • 11. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                              >Wonder why they bothered at all then.

                              "And for those times it does make a difference, it may actually improve things."
                              • 12. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                shooternz Level 6
                                >"And for those times it does make a difference, it may actually improve things."

                                ...or make things worse.
                                • 13. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                  I guess there I just disagree.
                                  • 14. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                    shooternz Level 6
                                    You didnt upgrade to CS3 because they "broke" your precious Home/ End /Pg Up/Pg Dn thingy yet you can not even consider that something you have not even used yet could also be a step backward for some and a step forward for others.

                                    I agree with Josh (in another thread) - unless you try this your comments are basically not worth the bandwith they are carried on.
                                    • 15. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional
                                      >Why does the source track mapping icon have to be on along with the track highlighted in order to insert media from the source window?

                                      I think of the source track indicators as telling Pr where I want the video and/or audio from the Source Monitor to go in the Timeline panel.

                                      I think of the track target headers as telling Pr which tracks I want to be affected by the next/pending operation. Not only operations from the Source Monitor like insert and overlay, but also standard editing operations like razoring the sequence and adding transitions.

                                      So to insert the source video into a particular track, you need to tell Pr which track gets the video (source track indicator) *and* which track(s) (track target headers) will be affected by the insert.

                                      In collaborative projects, I can imagine this paradigm being quite useful.

                                      For the case where you have the source track indicator active, but not the track target header, I think that falls under an old rule that's been modified for this feature.

                                      Historically, Pr will not allow edits to the timeline that are not explicitly caused by the editor's hand. For example - apply a Time Remapping slow down to a clip in the middle of a sequence. Rather than causing a shift in some or all of the clips in the tracks to the right of the remapped clip by increasing the duration of the remapped clip, Pr instead adjusts the effective out point of the remapped clip to maintain its old duration in the timeline.

                                      I would expect that the "new" interpretation of that rule is that nothing is automatically done to a sequence track that isn't targeted.
                                      • 16. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                        Colin Brougham Level 6
                                        Paul,

                                        Nice video--good illustrations. Just a comment on something that I think you'll be happy to know... and Craig, this might interest you, too.

                                        You mentioned in the video that source channel mapping and track targeting don't have any effect when dragging a clip from the source monitor into the timeline. This is correct--but I don't see this as a bad thing, because there's a much more powerful, faster, and elegant capability built into CS4 that doesn't seem to get much/any publicity. Check this help file entry; I'll copy and paste below:

                                        > To drag the video and audio portions of a clip to specific tracks, drag the clip from the Source Monitor or Project panel into a Timeline. When the video portion of the clip lies above the desired video track, press and hold Shift. Continue holding shift, and drag downward past the bar separating video and audio tracks. When the audio portion of the clip lies above the desired audio track, release the mouse and release Shift.

                                        > To drag the video portion of a clip to the Video 1 track and the audio to any audio track, drag the clip from the Source Monitor or Project panel past the line that separates the video tracks from the audio tracks. Drop the clip above the audio track where you want the audio portion to land. The video portion of the clip will remain in the Video 1 track, and the audio portion lands in the desired audio track.

                                        In other words, you can target tracks when dragging clips without having to use the source or track selectors at all. Here's a quick example:

                                        Let's say you have an AV clip with a single audio track (mono or stereo, doesn't matter for this purpose). Ordinarily, if you were to drag that clip onto V2 of your sequence, the audio would go to A2. However, if after you drag the video to V2, you hold down the Shift key and move below the divider between the video and audio tracks, you can now place the audio portion of the clip on whatever track you want. I think this is much better than if you had to target the tracks you wanted to drag-'n'-drop to... but that's just me.
                                        • 17. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                          Level 1
                                          Colin,

                                          That's a great feature that I did not know about! I believe it is also "better" than track targeting for dragging and dropping. Really awesome feature there! Thanks for pointing that out! I love learning about these small tricks. Wow, Premiere impressed me more and more!

                                          Thanks again! That's a really great and useful tip!
                                          • 18. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                            TradeWind Level 3
                                            Colin - that is some good news...never knew that (of course, I thought I knew everything before, so at least now I can back that up). ;)

                                            Good tip!
                                            • 19. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                              joshtownsend Level 2
                                              Thanks Colin.....Good tip.
                                              • 20. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                joshtownsend Level 2
                                                Wow took a minute to sink in but now that I've played with it I amazed I never worked that way before, helps me a ton.
                                                • 21. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                  shooternz Level 6
                                                  I must have a play with it. Sounds great.
                                                  • 22. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                    Colin Brougham Level 6
                                                    Consider it an early holiday present, from me to all of you :) It's a pretty helpful feature, that much is true.
                                                    • 23. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                      Level 1
                                                      Well if today is an early Christmas, then it was a white Christmas as well cuz here in NY, we got bombed with snow... and ice...

                                                      Thanks again! I'm about to edit something in Premiere so I'll be using it!
                                                      • 24. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                        shooternz Level 6
                                                        Slight digression but thinking what Paul V said ("turn it all off")

                                                        What Keyboard shortcuts have you set up for Toggle all Target Video ON /OFF (ie two shortcuts required.)

                                                        Same question for Target ALl Audio Tracks ON/OFF

                                                        I have pretty much exhausted the keyboard. (Unless I dump some defaults shortcuts) I have keys 1-8 allocated to Target Video Tracks 1-8

                                                        They need to be real convenient easy access keys IMHO
                                                        • 25. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                          Level 1
                                                          I have Video1 6, Video 2 on 5, Video 3 on 4. I don't really use much more than 3 Video Tracks.

                                                          I have Audio 1-4 on keys 7 through 0 respectively. That's sorta the way Avid does it so I've mapped them similarly. If I need more Audio tracks, I'll just shift over the Video 1 key to 5 or 4.

                                                          Don't forget the Fxx keys at the top. I think only F5, F6, and F9 are used to you can map to any of them.
                                                          • 26. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                            shooternz Level 6
                                                            Thanx Paul.

                                                            What about all ON & all OFF?

                                                            Average edit for me would be more than 6 video tracks and 3+ audio tks. (Current edit is 16 videotracks.) You can see why I feel this Track Targetting and Source Target thing gets a bit clicky and cumbersome.

                                                            BTW F1 is HELP
                                                            • 27. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                              Level 1
                                                              Yeah at that point, it gets clicky. Then you're probably going to want to use the mouse and those keyboard shortcuts instead of assigning a track to a number or something. Maybe toggle all on and off to the number 0 would be best, then you can just click on the tracks you want to insert/overlay on. That will basically be like working in CS3.
                                                              • 28. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                >unless you try this your comments are basically not worth the bandwith they are carried on.

                                                                I actually have tried it. I learned on the Avid, which has had this scheme for over a decade.
                                                                • 29. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                  Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                                                  Maybe you should switch to Avid.
                                                                  • 30. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                    Why? I like Premiere and am not complaining about this type of scheme.
                                                                    • 31. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                      Level 1
                                                                      Hey guys!

                                                                      I put part 2 up

                                                                      WHAT I LIKE/DISLIKE ABOUT ADOBE PREMIERE CS4 - PART 2:

                                                                      http://pauldv.com/2008/12/22/what-i-likedislike-about-premiere-pro-cs4-part-2/
                                                                      • 32. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                        shooternz Level 6
                                                                        Loved the track targeting stumble for the match frame demo :-)

                                                                        anyway all good and thanx for the demo.

                                                                        Hey Paul.. why the inverted footage ? ( DOF adapter?)
                                                                        • 33. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                          Level 1
                                                                          Well yeah, I screwed up the targeting but I don't think that's a bad thing. I'd rather be able to select which video clip I can match frame rather than not be able to select it.

                                                                          Also, the inverted footage... that was a feature film I cut that was shot with the Panasonic HVX and a DOF adapter.

                                                                          Thanks for checking out the video though! I'm glad you liked it!

                                                                          More to come soon!

                                                                          Paul Del Vecchio
                                                                          www.PaulDV.com
                                                                          • 34. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                            shooternz Level 6
                                                                            How about doing a demo of Colins drag and target "trick"

                                                                            BTW - did you cut the entire feature inverted!
                                                                            • 35. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                              Level 1
                                                                              I think I will include Colin's tip in the next demo.

                                                                              I didn't cut the entire thing inverted. I was able to flip and flop the entire thing.

                                                                              Paul Del Vecchio
                                                                              www.PaulDV.com
                                                                              • 36. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                                joshtownsend Level 2
                                                                                Can't believe you won the Diary contest. Not because your short isn't good (it's better than 99% of the zombie garbage out there). It's just that you had running zombies and the end of Return of the Living Dead and Romero has spoken out against both in interviews over the past decades.

                                                                                Just friendly conversation man. Had dinner with Romero here in Jax florida before he did the NOTLD talkie. Big fan.

                                                                                Keep up the great work on videos man. Too bad Adobe doesn't have the balls to make video like this explaining the strength and weaknesses of the program.

                                                                                One last thing, you said the 24p fix was coming in the next update at Dvxuser. Any word on when that fix is coming or are you just going by what Jimerson said when he tested the Beta? It's easy enough to get around in Premiere but in AE you can't batch 'interpret footage' like in Premiere.

                                                                                Good job Paul

                                                                                josh
                                                                                • 37. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                                  Level 1
                                                                                  Thanks man. Well, we wanted to have an ending that sorta commented on the US government but I don't want to get too political and start a war here.

                                                                                  Romero actually hand picked our film to be the Grand Prize winner so that was pretty cool. I think I'm the only one out of the finalists to NOT meet Romero. I need to find him at a convention or something one of these days. Hopefully he'll be around at a festival or convention. I'd love to talk to him.

                                                                                  As far as the 24p "fix," David Jimerson said it should be around Jan or Feb when the next update happens. That's my source so I don't really know any more than that.

                                                                                  Too bad you can't "batch interpret footage" in AE. Although, I haven't really had too much of an issue with AE not getting the pulldown correct.

                                                                                  Paul Del Vecchio
                                                                                  http://www.PaulDV.com
                                                                                  • 38. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                                    joshtownsend Level 2
                                                                                    That's awesome man. Romero is one of the nicest most humblest genuis directors I ever met. The night before the talkie they showed NOTLD without the commentary but it was Romero's birthday so he came in and introduced the movie "You guys do know this is black and white right?" Then we got to sing happy birthday to him.

                                                                                    Congrats man. I'd be jealous but I didn't enter it. I did my zombie short for the DVXuser zombie-fest and vowed to never make another one again because the genre is way to saturated. Dawn of the Dead is tied for my favorite movie ever with TCM ('73 version of cousre) and The Wild Bunch.

                                                                                    Now back to reality. When you open up your Preimere CS4 project in AE the pulldown stays correct for you? Not working for me. I have to the 'remember interpretation' dance on every clip even if I already did that in Premiere.

                                                                                    I notice your shooting on P2 also, what's your experience?
                                                                                    • 39. Re: CS4 Track Targeting fan...
                                                                                      Level 1
                                                                                      Yeah I've heard a lot about Romero. I'd love to meet him one day. One of my inspirations since I was a kid.

                                                                                      Yeah typically AE always knows the pulldown. Never had a problem with it. Also, I actually dont shoot on the HVX. I have a DVX100a and I've been wanting to upgrade for the longest time. But for the P2 stuff I've worked with, it's been a great experience. No complaints here.