33 Replies Latest reply on Dec 27, 2008 3:26 PM by (Angelo_Clematide)

    Did I make a good deal?

    Level 1
      I just bought a second hand EX1 on EBAY for 5,000 euros cash (2 X 8Giga SXS cards and 2 batteries one of which is a long lasting one) It has a one year guarantee and the owner bought it in May 2008. It appears to be in good shape. Did I make a good deal? Will Sony endorse the guarantee?
        • 1. Re: Did I make a good deal?
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          Personally, I think any camera that uses GOP compression is a bad deal regardless of price.
          • 2. Re: Did I make a good deal?
            Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP
            I don't know; did he actually own the camera? lol
            • 3. Re: Did I make a good deal?
              Level 1
              Jim if you know of a Camera which does Full HD with a half inch lens without GOP in that pricerange just let me know.
              • 4. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                Thrill Media Level 2
                This camera is back on my consideration list since there is now product that allows you to use standard cards instead of the SxS, not that they are bad, but expensive. In case you haven't seen it: http://e-films.com.au/. The rolling shutter does give me pause but the footage I have seen is impressive!

                To me it's not so much about which compression is used in the camera, because they all use some form of compression, it just has to look great. I don't do a lot of chroma keying so the 4:2:0 is not a major consideration either again since the picture looks so nice.

                To me the issue comes to post. Are you going to edit native or convert it to something more manageable? Are you using a Black Magic or AJA card to injest? Is the time saved simply copying the files over worth all of the time rendering in post? I am curious about the trade offs in render times (with CC or other effects) between all of the codecs and would love to see some real world tests between each. That would help me make a better informed decision on which camera will work for me.

                As for your purchase, congratulations! I am sure you are going to love that camera. If you are interested in sharing some test footage let us know!
                • 5. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                  >if you know of a Camera which does Full HD with a half inch lens without GOP in that pricerange just let me know.

                  Coming soon...

                  Having said that, my point is that I think it's better to compromise on other things. Source material should always be I-frame only.
                  • 6. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                    joshtownsend Level 2
                    Is there any other sub-$16,000 camera other Panasonic models that shoot i-frame only?

                    Man I'd bet my house that Scarlet from Red isn't gonna even be buyable for at least 9 months. And that's if everything goes to plan. Think of all the things you can shoot in that 9 months to pay back the camera.

                    Curtis,
                    As much as I hate the way Adobe neglects premiere I use because it edit DVCPROHD files that are 3-5 times bigger than HDV or AVCHD files, but they play smooth as butter even on my old AMD 3000 with 2 gig's of ram. With my new intel quad I can edit multiple streams with light color correction at full res 1080. It's amazing how fast DVCPROHD is, it's almost as easy on the computer as editing DV.

                    I've seen some great looking shorts and TV that use the EX1. Of course I prefer my 4:2:2 i-frame Panasonic but the EX1 looks nice unless your shooting crazy action or shooting shakey cam.

                    It's not for me but I'd rather shoot on a new EX1 than DV no matter the camera unless it was a quick commercial or music video that I'm not editing. Period.
                    • 7. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                      Level 1
                      The Red only costs 5 times more than the EX1. Obviously if price is no object then you may as well shoot with a Genesis. Let's get back to reality: For its price the EX1 has no competition.
                      • 8. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                        The current Red One costs two to three times as much. The forthcoming Red Scarlet could cost less, depending on the options you go with.
                        • 9. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                          Harm Millaard Level 7
                          Jim,

                          You have to believe their Marketing department without ANY restrictions. $ 5K for an EX1, double or triple that to end up at around $ 12,5K for a Red and you want to compare them???

                          I wish you luck in finding a RED body at that price. Be realistic when you compare prices. The EX1 includes storage media, optics, battery, viewfinder, LCD, loader, etc. The RED can not come close to triple the EX1 price with the same basic functionality. Just estimate a figure of around $ 40K for a comparable configuration and then it will be WAY BETTER.

                          I wish you even more luck in recording anything useful at that price (your indication of $ 10 to 15K) WITHOUT optics added. I look forward to seeing your shots without a lens attached. Must be fun watching and even more fun editing that material....
                          • 10. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                            OK, the EX1 is cheaper than I thought. It's about 6Gs at B&H (with one 8 GB card and one small battery). Last I saw it was still around $8,000.

                            But the new Scarlet (with fixed 8x lens) body should be about $2,500, and that includes a full resolution 2/3" sensor. Add a couple of options like viewfinder/LCD and you can still keep it less than the price of an EX1. Plus you get the advantages of shooting Full HD in RAW format on much less expensive SDHC cards.
                            • 11. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                              Harm Millaard Level 7
                              > Plus you get the advantages of shooting Full HD in RAW format on much less expensive SDHC cards.

                              RAW is not applicable to the EX1, but full HD applies and the use of the much cheaper SDHC cards applies to the EX series as well. No sense in using SxS solutions when you can have KxS solutions for a fraction of the price (10%).

                              Further info on Scarlet pricing:

                              i As far as I can tell, if you just buy the body, you will have to pay extra for:

                              -A rear LCD and controls
                              -Audio inputs and monitoring outputs
                              -A lens mount

                              i These items are required just to get the camera up to the standard $17500 Red One body, which is still useless without batteries, lenses, etc.

                              i I guess what I'm saying is, although I do agree that the Scarlet is better than the Red One for less money, the price difference might not be as dramatic as we're all assuming just from looking at the specs.
                              • 12. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                joshtownsend Level 2
                                "But the new Scarlet (with fixed 8x lens) body should be about $2,500, and that includes a full resolution 2/3" sensor. Add a couple of options like viewfinder/LCD and you can still keep it less than the price of an EX1"

                                Jim recommending a camera that doesn't even exist isn't productive.

                                Your recommending about a vaporware camera right now that (If they stay on schedule which they never have) the scarlet with fixed lens isn't coming out till next winter. That's one year from now at the very least. It's also very possible that the scarlet with fixed lens may cost alot more when it finally comes time to sell it. It possible they might scrap the whole thing by then. They've changed the specs many times. When they announced the fixed lens they said it would be available at the beginning of '09. Now they pushed it back to Winter '09.

                                Those files are huge and have very complicated workflow needing a fast computer. Also working is shooting RAW video is a whole new way to work way more complicated.

                                Also the RED ONE body is 17,000 . You need to buy lens, a viewfinder or monitor, a red drive before you shoot anything. Buy the time RED ONE becomes shootable you've spend at the very least $25,000. And with that figure will only give you one mediocre lens. There's no auto-focus so you need to have a focus puller when you shoot.

                                Besides you won't like it Red, Jim because everything isn't in one single file and premiere 2.0 can't edit it. You also have to have Vista 64 according to Adobe/Reds specs.
                                • 13. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                  joshtownsend Level 2
                                  About the original question. "I just bought a second hand EX1 on EBAY for 5,000 euros cash (2 X 8Giga SXS cards and 2 batteries one of which is a long lasting one) It has a one year guarantee and the owner bought it in May 2008. It appears to be in good shape. Did I make a good deal? Will Sony endorse the guarantee?"

                                  If it you can get it new for 6,000 grand US then 5 grand euro for used camera is a VERY BAD DEAL.
                                  • 14. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                    Harm Millaard Level 7
                                    New this camera, excluding local sales tax, but including 2-nd SxS card and BP-60U battery and guarantee would currently come to around 4.680, including transport and insurance. So, if you pay 5.000 including sales tax, you can figure it out whether you made a good deal. In my book it would not be a good deal, but that is my opinion.
                                    • 15. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                      >RAW is not applicable to the EX1

                                      I know. What I'm saying is that it's better than what the EX1 records, for less money.

                                      >Your recommending about a vaporware camera right now

                                      More like discussing it really, for those who have the luxury of waiting as I do. For "right now" I'd recommend only Panasonic as that's the only one recording HD in this price range using I-frame compression.

                                      >Those files are huge and have very complicated workflow needing a fast computer.

                                      It actually seems pretty easy using the Red plug-in for Premiere, based on the video demo I saw.

                                      >shooting RAW video is a whole new way to work way more complicated.

                                      Curious. How do you figure? I actually see it as a potential benefit. White balancing is a thing of the past, as you now have full access to all three color channels in post (as well as gamma). A shooter comes back with orange video, you can do a whole lot more to make it perfect than you can with other formats, so I kind of see this as making things easier.

                                      >everything isn't in one single file

                                      Hmm. According to a paper published by Autodesk, they are.

                                      "The RED ONE camera can record up to four channels of uncompressed, 24-bit, 48Khz audio. They are saved inside the same R3D file containing the corresponding image."
                                      • 16. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                        shooternz Level 6
                                        Hey Jim

                                        Take a look at what you are dealing with in RD3. (esp. Take note of the directory structure.)

                                        http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/working_with_red_footage/
                                        • 17. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                          Harm Millaard Level 7
                                          > for those who have the luxury of waiting as I do

                                          I look forward to your first impressions when the time comes. Do you expect that to happen before 2014?
                                          • 18. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                                            It'll be close, but that's my target date.
                                            • 19. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                              Level 1
                                              What's this Scarlet camera anyways? Everybody talks about it but one never actually gets to see it. You just see bits and pieces of it. This could be a horror movie in which they never actually show you the whole creature.
                                              • 20. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                Yeah, that is annoying. You can tease for a while, bit eventually you have to show the whole monster very clearly.
                                                • 21. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                  Level 1
                                                  "What's this Scarlet camera anyways? Everybody talks about it but one never actually gets to see it."

                                                  http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/
                                                  • 22. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                    Level 1
                                                    Black on black... extreme close ups... in detached parts...

                                                    Remind you of anything:

                                                    http://www.skeezo.fr/wp-content/uploads/Image/alien.jpg
                                                    • 23. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                      Level 1
                                                      5000.00 Euro for a 115.PMW-EX1 XDCAM is a good price. The EX-1 costs 6892.00 at the moment. Make the V1.11 Firmware update.
                                                      • 24. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                        joshtownsend Level 2
                                                        "The EX-1 costs 6892.00 at the moment" It costs $6,000 US dollars at many Sony certified US stores. Even with higher import taxes and maybe VAT how it possible for it cost more in Euro than in US dollar?
                                                        • 25. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                          Level 1
                                                          If I could get the product in the US, I would. However the import taxes will set me back. The alternative is to go to the US and bring the camera back in a suitcase. This means a plane ride. The European Distributors want their mark-up and Sony wants its profit. Cameras are more expensive in Europe than in the US. This is especially true in France where the prices are the highest (and where people go to Germany or the UK to get their products). Frensh VAT is 19,6%! The going retail price in France for a basic EX1 is minimum 6300 Euros with VAT.
                                                          • 26. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                            Level 1
                                                            Comments about the Scarlet:

                                                            If you want my opinion, the fully operational Scarlet will cost 25,000 Euros by the time all the parts are in place and the product is fully developped. It will be cheap compared to Sony HD CAM products or Genesis type products but it will still be in a totally different priceleague than the EX1 or EX3 which remain the cheapest in their category. The Scarlet is more likely to have to compete with the Sony X.D CAM line than with the E.X line. Right now I don't see any competition for the EX1 or EX3.
                                                            • 27. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                              Level 1
                                                              jujufactory sez ---> "Right now I don't see any competition for the EX1 or EX3."

                                                              Certainly not picture quality wise, but that is what counts at the end. The film teams I work with shoot with HDCAM e.g. the SONY 114.HDW-750P, as well the RED ONE, and the SONY 115.PMW-EX1; the differences are stunning.
                                                              • 28. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                                Level 1
                                                                What do you mean by: "The differences are stunning"?
                                                                • 29. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                                  Level 1
                                                                  ... the most obvious is the shallow depth of field of the EX-1 compared to the other two
                                                                  • 30. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                                    Harm Millaard Level 7
                                                                    Angelo, I don't know where your prices come from, but reread # 14.
                                                                    • 31. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                                      Level 1
                                                                      Harm, the price is from our supplier:

                                                                      http://www.schweizervideo.ch

                                                                      Produkte > Kamera > XDCAM

                                                                      Sales tax is 7.5%, but foreigners pay no sales tax here, and chances are good that he has a second hand one.

                                                                      .
                                                                      • 32. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                                        Level 1
                                                                        Angelo, wait a minute Doc. Are you telling me the EX1 beats the SONY 114.HDW-750P as well the RED ONE?
                                                                        • 33. Re: Did I make a good deal?
                                                                          Level 1
                                                                          The EX-1 is good enough for cinema spots which are played digital in the theater, but no, the footage can not be compared to HDCAM, or the footage of the red one; a good HDCAM lens alone costs over twenty-thousand, it wiould be to good to be true if something in the lower price range would be as good as the more expensive machinery, and with red one 4k footage you have to be good to see the difference to 35mm