26 Replies Latest reply on Mar 2, 2009 9:16 PM by Dan Isaacs

    help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4

    Level 1
      Like the subject says: i need help converting 60i to 24p from sony hdrsr12.
      I dont think it is as simple as just importing all my AVCHD footages(29.976 fps) and then exporting it as 23.976 fps. I heard of this 'pulldown' if i right click and goto Interpret Footage, but my selection for that is greyed out.

      is there a way get my footage smoother or should I not export my 60i into 24p? I would like to have the film look, it would be good practice for the future
        • 2. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
          Level 1
          you can provide both windows and mac answers, since i have both systems. or should I goto Interpret footage and just set the 'Assume this framerate:' and set it to 23.976023?
          • 4. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
            Level 1
            Gab, I am in stress, the hospital just called, my son is in the Intensive care unit, my wife just went there, I stayed at home
            • 5. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
              Level 1
              The conversion process is simple, however the quality of the final 23.976p depends on the remove fields process, also called de-imterlacing to 24p. There are different third party software necessary to do this; which third party software are you using in Premiere? Premiere does not natively support the AVCHD format.

              1) Are you sure the source footage is 60 fps, and not 59,94 fps?

              2) Are you sure you want the final video in 24p, and not in 23,976 fps?

              3) The best results with 1080i/60 is achieved with de-interlacing to 30p, or if the source is 59,94 to 29,976p. 29,976 fps is mandatory when the video has to be watched on NTSC monitors.

              4) Also good would be to shoot in 24p if you really want 24p.

              The normal workflow is simple, you transfer the AVCHD recording to your hard drive, put it on the timeline, edit and export with MainConcept Pro HD.
              • 6. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                Level 1
                the source 60i turns out to be 59.97 so when imported to premiere pro it is being read as 29.97. i want to export it as 23.976 and there is no way i can just buy another next time i will buy a panasonic camcorder(which i wanted to but it only had a 60GB hardDrive), or a canon when it has a viewfinder and 5.1 surround sound.

                I have no third party software except Boris FX for windows. but I usually use my Mac to do the exporting into a movie format.

                I like using the Quicktime format when I export and usually am using the Apple Intermediate Codec, then then another export to H.264 after that when the project is done and ready to distribute.

                Here is a sample I made that is in 23.976fps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PRyU80ZKIQ&fmt=22. it didn't feel quite smooth, although i dont expect it to be as smooth as 29.976. All i did with this was that i exported my original footage(29.976) into my 'AVCHD24p 5.1(Surround sound)' preset. Each clip i export i go to 'field options' and then i tick on 'reverse field dominance'(I'm not sure why i did it), and 'always deinterlace'. and then i export the whole thing into 23.976 frameRate.

                I tried exporting it in 29.976 format but it absolutely had a weird feeling, it was too smooth for me.

                or course, if i dont edit my videos, the original footage looks nice at its 29.976 format, but im gonna have to combine all my footage together to make a vacation kind of movie, so thats why i wanted to convert my it's original framerate to 23.976 without having an outside 3rd party software doing it before going into premiere pro cs4.
                • 7. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                  Level 1
                  Gabriel,

                  I do not see any reason why you should drop frames. Just leave it as it is at 29,976 fps. Converting the video to 24P will loose picture quality, no matter how good the conversion algorithm is. One of the better conversion software is Magic Bullet Frames, install the trial and see what quality can be achieved:

                  http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/magic-bullet-frames/

                  So you converted AVCHD intop another format to be able to edit without third party software. The intermediate Quicktime codec is ProRes422, that codec doesn't work in Premiere.

                  Interlace is a technique of improving the picture quality of a video signal primarily on CRT (cathode ray tube) monitors. Deinterlacing is important when the end product is viewed on computer monitors or Notebooks to beamer. Compression technology like Flash, H.264, On2-VP6 are all MPEG-4 progressive compression formats, respectively when you export interlaced video into one of this delivery formats, it is converted to progressive.

                  Here a few links concerning the 29.976 to 24p process:

                  http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/60i/

                  http://www.dvfilm.com/fx1/

                  .
                  • 8. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                    Level 1
                    I wasn't using ProRes422/HQ, but it does work in my premiere pro, it just wasn't as good in quality as the Apple Intermediate Codec-I guess this was provided by Final Cut. I will try out the Magic Bullet Frames later.
                    • 9. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                      Level 1
                      It doesn't matter what the quality is of any intermediate codec. Once the video is edited, then the highest quality master is rendered from the original source.
                      • 10. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                        Level 1
                        Hey guys, i just found out how to convert 60i to 24p AVCHD with very smooth picture. It doesnt require alot of CPU power but requires you to endure annoyance.

                        Download the tsMuxer and insert your .m2ts footage in. set the framerate to 24000/1001 and remove the audio(to avoid sound errors)

                        then choose .ts or .m2ts and then press start muxing. In a couple of minutes or even seconds. the video is done. The video is still interlaced.
                        put the new footage in premiere pro. stick in the original footage in and remove the video part of it, leaving only the audio. stick the new footage in a 23.976023 timeline and right click the footage on the timeline and click on speed/duration. increase the speed to 125%.
                        export with 23.976023 as the framerate and viola!!! smooth as hell, it's like the same method God would do if he lost his powers one day.

                        This is much much better than magic bullet frames or Boris deinterlace 29i to 24p method. but of course, with tsmuxer, you have to mux every footage that you have one at a time.

                        O god, i am so happy, why didnt i think of this earlier?
                        • 11. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                          Orytek Level 1
                          >put the new footage in premiere pro. stick in the original footage in and remove the video part of it, leaving only the audio. stick the new footage in a 23.976023 timeline and >right click the footage on the timeline and click on speed/duration. increase the speed to 125%.

                          How do you come up with 125%?
                          I know you are extending your video clip so it synchronizes with you original audio but isn''t 125% a bit much?
                          • 12. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                            Level 1
                            to orytek: 'How do you come up with 125%?
                            I know you are extending your video clip so it synchronizes with you original audio but isn''t 125% a bit much?'

                            Well, when i said 125%, i mean change the 100% to 125%, as going from a slow motion 24p back to a normal speed 30p in a 24p format is a 25% increase. so change the speed from 100% to 125%. Tsmuxer makes ot slow-motion, so remember, increasing the percentage is increasing the speed of the clip, not extending it.

                            Try it out, i can assure you that it works
                            • 13. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                              Level 1
                              i found another solution for converting 60i to 24p footage that contains motion is by using this. It's An After effect preset with some other custom stuff.
                              • 14. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                Level 1
                                after many times of testing, i need someone to help me out here. Can anyone tell me if this video(it's only 5mb flash video file, so you wont have to wait long): http://silentsleeper.com/orlando08/24testing.html looks close to 24p? can you tell thats it's been from a 60i source?
                                • 15. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                  Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                  One question, Gabriel: Is the source footage full 60i or is it 24p with pulldown to begin with?
                                  • 16. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                    Level 1
                                    to Dan: it's a full 60i footage(recorded in 60i) from a sony hdr-sr12(it only records 60i, damn it sony).

                                    heres my previous post again so it doesnt get lost: " after many times of testing, i need someone to help me out here. Can anyone tell me if this video(it's only 5mb flash video file, so you wont have to wait long): http://silentsleeper.com/orlando08/24testing.html looks close to 24p? can you tell thats it's been from a 60i source?"
                                    • 17. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                      Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                      Looks pretty good to me, actually. It's a little hard to tell with the constant camera motion, however. What process did you use for this?

                                      Also, may I ask what your final intended output format is? Is this a "commercial" project or just personal?
                                      • 18. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                        Level 1
                                        to dan^: after editing on premiere pro(all my footage is 60i but my sequence is a 24p: in which all my footage will have unplayable playback).Then, i import everything to after effects.

                                        For the shots that have little camera motion, i use after effects default frame blending pixel motion(its F'ing awesome...).

                                        For the shots the have motion that the after effects pixel motion can not handle(sometimes a frame would go all weird a move to another x coordinate), i use Andrew Kramers frameRate conversion.

                                        For now it's a personal use. I mean, who else other than my friends and family would want to look at my disney vacation? I already posted my fireworks on youtube(i got the best epcot fireworks avaible on youtube too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft5E6Y0VIMw&feature=hd).
                                        I'm in university now, SFU in BC canada, and there teaching me a bunch of crap now like math unrelated with computer animation physics, so im not a professional yet.

                                        But if you were asking me why i would waste all my time trying to convert 60i to 24p, i really dont like the smoothness, i would only use this smoothness if it was something like a sports game.

                                        if you wanna ask me why i didnt buy a camera that didnt shot a true 24p, is because i havent been able to find a camera that has all the following features: 5.1 surround sound, a viewfinder, xvcolor, very compact in size, at least 80GB or space(before i bought this hdrsr12, i wasnt too familiar with the tape format), recognizable by both mac and pc, under 2 1,500 canadian dollars, and of course 1080p HD.
                                        I bought the hdrsr12 because i saved 400 bucks(original price was 1399, i bought it for 989) at futureshop.

                                        heres my previous post again so it doesnt get lost: " after many times of testing, i need someone to help me out here. Can anyone tell me if this video(it's only 5mb flash video file, so you wont have to wait long): http://silentsleeper.com/orlando08/24testing.html looks close to 24p? can you tell thats it's been from a 60i source?"
                                        • 19. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                          Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                          I was asking you what your intended use was so that I could gauge your needs and your budget. I was wondering if the Disney stuff was "the final product" (yes, obviously for "home use") or perhaps just a test clip.

                                          I am familiar with AE's pixel motion. It works well, but the process is a pain in the *** for 60i->24p conversion and it is extremely slow. I am also not crazy about the deinterlacing in AE (understatement).

                                          I fully understand the desire to perform such conversions. Perhaps you are unaware of the lengthy threads in the CS3 forum about converting DV 60i to 24p, in which I was greatly involved.

                                          I wrote a function for AviSynth (a fabulous and free command-line video editing tool) called dv2film() to handle such conversions. It has many, many options for deinterlacing methods, blending, motion compensation (similar to AE's "pixel motion"), etc.

                                          I am fairly certain that it can best AE's output and probably renders faster -- it is also very convenient to batch process. Well, for DV and other AVI based containers, that is. Perhaps best of all, all of the tools are completely free.

                                          I did write a special program (combining other freeware tools) to batch AVCHD and MPEG2 input. I have not worked on it for a while, and you could say it is in "beta" form. Perhaps you'd like to try it out. Drop me an email @ d.isaacs --at-- comcast --dot-- net.
                                          • 20. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                            Level 1
                                            that was just a test clip(for now), part of 'the final product'. I would actually like everything to work with quicktime.
                                            and of course, i would not like to loose any video quality before i make the final export, so if this Avisynth has to do some conversion of some sort that makes any sort of quality loss, im not up for it. ProRes422 is the closest least quality loss i can find that wont blow up my harddrive space(i have 67GB of AVCHD from my florida trip, so converting it to any format before editing is not the smartest plan).

                                            What i learned from this experience, AVCHD is a pain in the ***, i had no idea before i bought the camcorder.
                                            • 22. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                              Level 1
                                              Yep, im editing on a mac, but i have vista too. Mac never crashes on me also, so its a double benefit for me. Did you read the entire thread?
                                              • 23. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                                Level 1
                                                I just found this method too: heres a expensive way of perfectly converting avchd 60i to 24p (unless you know how to get it for free you internet pirates) without worrying about motion, is using BorisFX.
                                                After editing in premiere pro cs4 with a 23.976fps sequence, import everything to after effects cs4:
                                                Use the Boris Deinterlace, switch the 'only deinterlace' to '29i to 24p' to every clip inside your 23.976fps sequence. then create a new 23.976 comp and stick your 23.976 sequence into the 23.976 comp and use pixel motion. Voila!.

                                                May i ask, how can i apply a preset to all layers in After effects?
                                                • 24. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                                  Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                  > May i ask, how can i apply a preset to all layers in After effects?

                                                  Sorry. I really have no idea. Better to ask this in the AE forum.

                                                  > heres a expensive way of perfectly converting avchd 60i to 24p

                                                  I have no interest in this, personally, as I have a fabulous, fast and free method of doing this already. I have not tried the Boris deinterlacer, but I am certain it is too expensive for its capabilties. There are so many excellent deinterlacers for AviSynth that are completely free. Somebody has also written a free plugin that allows you to import AviSynth scripts into Premiere, AE, Adobe Media Encoder, etc.

                                                  I know that everybody has their preferred tools and workflow but, for me, AE and Premiere are neither very good nor convenient as "conversion" tools: Premiere is an editor, AE is a compositor and Media Encoder is an encoder. For standards conversions (HD->SD, NTSC->PAL, 60i->film, etc.) I rely on AviSynth and VirtualDub.
                                                  • 25. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                                    Level 1
                                                    you say that avisynth can be imported to after effects and premiere? if it works on a mac, i'll go for it, where can i find this?
                                                    • 26. Re: help convert 60i to 24p from hdrsr12 in cs4
                                                      Dan Isaacs Level 2
                                                      No, it will not work on a Mac.