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For the moment, cameras that use solid-state recording and take video that edits well are quite expensive, and only made by Panasonic. You may be best sticking with a tape based MiniDV camera if your budget is less than $6,000 or so.
Jim, Jim, Jim,
> only made by Panasonic.
You never stop amazing me. You are so stuck on Panny's, that the rest of the world seems to pass you by. I remember your participation in a thread about the XDCAM-EX series. Did you not know about their recording mechanism, SxS, KxS and MxS? Do you not remember that I have told you repeatedly that the P2 technology was outdated and hideously expensive? I will also tell you that the Panny 151 in terms of quality is far overshadowed by the less expensive tape based Sony FX1000.
Harm, Harm, Harm...
Have you not gotten by now that I object to GOP compression in source media, and will always recommend against it?
ooooh... a ***** fight.
I'm still waiting for examples of Panny 200 or 171 shots versus EX shots where the Panny proves better. I haven't seen those, not have I seen any comparison where the Panny could get close to the EX. The EX blows the Pannies out of the water in direct comparisons that I have seen. Both in quality and in cost. Maybe your long GOP hangup is too much oriented to perceived 'easier' editing, and disregards the benefits of the better quality and economics of the end result for the EX.
>Maybe your long GOP hangup is too much oriented to perceived 'easier' editing
Some of my 'perceptions' in that regard come from users in these forums. Folks seem to be doing fine with DVCPRO HD, and having a tough go of it with XDCAM EX footage.
I admit I never tried DVCPROHD, but I never had any difficulty with EX footage in CS3.
Anyways we are not a video studio we are a business that does all our own promotions in house. Our budget is around 500-900 dollars. One of the cameras I was looking at was the
Canon Vixia HF10
we don't have the budget to spend 1,000 on a camera.
Canon HV20/30 are the best ones in that price range AND easy to edit, but tape based, which may be an advantage for that budget.
You might consider a consumer editing application then to better match the low end consumer cam. Though less feature rich, the consumer editing apps are designed better for the avchd compression all these low end solid state cams use.
I agree with HARM on the HV30. Its not solid state, but thats not really a disadvantage, In this price range i would consider it an adantage. hdv is easier to edit than avchd.
We already bought the adobe production suite and thats what we plan to use. I have the editing down. We are moving away from using the sony vegas products because they are not good enough for what we are doing.
I just wanted advice on a cam.
isn't the industry going to cams that have flash memory instead of tape? Isn't the quality better? also HD would be nice.
If you could provide some camera brands/models that would help a bunch.
>also HD would be nice.
HV30 is HDV. If you can wait the HV40 is coming out in March. It has NATIVE 24p.
Despite what a Best Buy sales rep tells you; flash mem doesnt make the quality better. In fact, because flash memory is more expensive than tape; the compression used is more aggressive, to make it fit on the expensive media. For playback it looks good. But for editing, it is very difficult to edit. In your price range HDV cams would be your best bet.
The exception as Jim pointed out is the Panasonic P2 cams that record to flash mem, but not in the difficult to edit temporal compression avchd uses. But they are out of your price range. In fact most cams are out of your price range of $500.
>isn't the industry going to cams that have flash memory instead of tape? Isn't the quality better?
In the world of standard definition, generally no, the quality isn't better. Such cameras that use DVDs, hard drives or other non-tape systems generally record using MPEG compression and aren't as good a choice for editing as a tape-based MiniDV model would be. Something like the Panasonic GS500 might suite your needs. It's a 3 CCD camera (a very good thing) and reviews put it near the top in consumer camera picture quality. Plus it's in your price range.
>I never had any difficulty with EX footage in CS3
When'd you get an EX?
At IBC and a second one is on order.
>Some of my 'perceptions' in that regard come from users in these forums. Folks seem to be doing fine with DVCPRO HD, and having a tough go of it with XDCAM EX footage.
Here we go again. What posts might you be referring to, Jim? jujufactory? Now there's a source.
You don't use CS4 (or even CS3) and you don't even own an HD camera. As this is a USER to USER group, I don't get why you insist on offering up camera advice totally derived from something you read somewhere. Did Howard Stringer torture you as a child? Cover you eyes, Jim, because Premiere Pro edits EX1 footage like a hot knife through butter.
WE ALL GET THAT YOU DON'T LIKE LONG GOP, JIM, SO CAN WE MOVE ON AND LET THOSE OF US THAT DO USE IT GET ON WITH OUR BUSINESS WITHOUT YOUR CONSTANT NAGGING? IT SERVES NO USEFUL PURPOSE BUT TO HIJACK THREADS SUCH AS THIS ONE AND IRRITATE US USERS. GET OVER IT ALREADY!
OK, I feel better now. Not that my little tantrum will do any good.
>Cover you eyes, Jim, because Premiere Pro edits EX1 footage like a hot knife through butter.
Well, next time a user comes here asking for help on how to get his CS4 to work with EX1 footage, chime in.
>WE ALL GET THAT YOU DON'T LIKE LONG GOP, JIM, SO CAN WE MOVE ON AND LET THOSE OF US THAT DO USE IT GET ON WITH OUR BUSINESS WITHOUT YOUR CONSTANT NAGGING?
Hey man, Geremy asked for opinions. I gave mine, just like you gave yours.
I sure get fed up reading these kind of posts.
I have my own frustrations as well, Ann
I'm sorta in your position, where I want to go to a non tape based camera with good picture quality, but don't have a $5000 budget. I've used a Panasonic GS400 for 4 years, but I blew the fire wire port, so now I want to get away from it. Until I can decide which camera to buy, I'm using a JVC HD-7, and the quality to me is not as good as the old Panny. I also recently had a chance to use a Canon HV20. The picture in standard def blew away the picture from the JVC in full hi-def. The HDV picture quality was even better. I used it a church where the lighting is not the best and the quality was still good. Not as good as a JVC HD100 I tried once, but then the HD100 was $5000 at the time vs a $500 camera.
Like someone above said, in the price range you're looking at, best quality and AVCHD don't belong in the same sentence. You'll be paying for the new format more than you'll be paying for picture quality. Yes taped based is old, but its tried and true, and like someone said the format is super easy to edit, compared to the JVC HD7 I'm using that adds hours to my post time.
also there is an adapter you can get for this camera to allow it to accept XLR inputs.
If you could pony up $1000 to $1500 you MIGHT get a solid state based camera that could compare to a HV20. But I doubt it.
I don't have any experience with the new cheaper cameras but the new Canon coming out with native 24p sounds like the best camera to get.
I have an HV 30 and the picture quality is beautiful. I have also had good luck editing with it in Premiere. Plus you ALWAYS have the tape back-up. The footage does take up quite a bit of hard drive space, though, so be prepared.
So it sounds like the Canon HV 30 might be the way to go? What is going to be the biggest dif from the HV 30 to the HV 40?
What stores/websites do you suggest buying at?
1. Still awaiting the announcements, so no details are known.
2. B+H comes to mind first.
Harm and I agree on that last. B&H in Manhattan is a very reputable dealer. Fair prices, too.
>What is going to be the biggest dif from the HV 30 to the HV 40?
True 24p native recording to tape and a custom button. That's the only difference.
You will not have to convert the footage to get true 24p.
HDV is dead. Just remember that when you buy.
Here's one you can strike off your list. A camera designed specifically for editing in Final Cut (or so they say). Records Quicktime straight to SDHC cards at 35 mbps. I wonder if the Mac version of PPro would support this camera.
This looks like a typical Juju remark: Unfounded, lacking insight, stirring, biased, and without any relevant expertise or knowledge. Why do you keep this up?
Mark Twain once said:
b It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
You have succeeded.
Harm, obviously HDV is still around but it is obsolete. The entire industry has moved to full HD in non linear formats with variable bitrates. Flash cards are becoming very cheap (50 Euros for 16GB). It may take 5 years to phase it out completely but HDV is obsolete. Go to any consumer store and try to find a cheap HDV camera... most cameras are flash card based or internal memory based.
On a professional level, any tape based format including HD CAM and the early X.D CAM HD formats (which did not have full HD resolution) are technologically obsolete.
Soon everything will be non linear flash cards with multible bitrate settings.
Stick and stones may hurt my bones but Harm's words will never Harm me. :)
So is P2. And AVCHD is hampered by it's compression technology. DVCPROHD by it's resolution. Every format has it's pro's and con's. HDV will be around for a long time. It has the most economic media. DV isn't dead yet, just ask Jim.
I loved HDV when it came out. It saved my *** when HD was new. It did a great job. The release of the Panasonic P2 and the Sony X.D CAM HD formats marked the beginning of the end of all tape formats. The Sony Z7 with combination flash card and tape rang the phase out for HDV. Get used to it. We are in a non linear world now.
P2 is not as obsolete as HDV because at least P2 is a non linear variable bitrate technology.
Of course HDV is obsolete.
16 GB flash cards cost 50 Euros for 1 hour of recording time at 35 mbs! You drag and drop them to your hard drive and re-use them right away. Do you seriously think anybody still wants to worry about tape stock, acquisition and codec and dropouts and 1440 resolution? Give me a break Harm. HDV is dead.
Of course this is ridiculous and completely unsupported by any actual facts. Sony just launched two new high-end HDV cams. Canon came out with a new iteration, mentioned above. HDV remains the cheapest, easiest, most reliable way to shoot, edit and produce video. Every NLE supports it reliably.
And contrary to earlier assertions, only a very small minority of semi-pro video people use anything other than tape, and all pros in the Network and Broadcast world use tape almost exclusively for its reliable established workflow.
I'm not saying anything's wrong with the other formats, but HDV is alive and well, and anyone seriously asserting the contrary just isn't paying attention, and is simply whistling in the dark to justify being on the bleeding edge.
>True 24p native recording to tape
Hmm. I question that. 24p Native has thus far been reserved solely for solid-state recording, as tape formats all require an end result of 30i, adding the necessary pulldown to get there from the 24p image capture.
>all pros in the Network and Broadcast world use tape almost exclusively for its reliable established workflow.
I'd have to disagree with that. I've just seen too many articles about production houses and TV stations switching to all P2 acquisition. Tape may enter the equation at some point on the actual broadcasting side of things, but it's not quite as exclusive as you make it out to be in the field, even for the big boys.
>Hmm. I question that. 24p Native has thus far been reserved solely for solid-state recording, as tape formats all require an end result of 30i, adding the necessary pulldown to get there from the 24p image capture.
You can question it but it's true.
Film is dead. That does not mean people are not using it the way some people drive expensive vintage cars. However if you take price and flexibility into account, film is technologically as dead as analog. The same goes for tape.
HDV and HD CAM tape formats only exist because flash cards were not ready when HD came out.
The natural flow of things leads us to a flash card only world and that includes the replacement by flash cards of hard drives, tape, disks, or anything with moving parts. I predict 2 years from now flash cards will be so cheap you won't even have to worry about archiving. You'll use them like tape. You will have cheap 128 or 256 Gigibyte flash cards (256 GB flash card means 20 hours of HDV type footage). 1 hour of flash card will be much cheaper than 1 hour of tape and a hundred times lighter, a hundred times faster and a hundred times more flexible, a hundred times easier to store on a shelf, a hundred times longer lasting without drop outs or noise, and a hundred times less wasteful in terms of material than tape.
We already know down the road everything will be non linear digital. It's a given.
Tape was never even supposed to go with digital formats. It was just a quick and easy way to provide a recording solution while waiting for other storage solutions to take over. Now they have. HDV is obsolete for ten reasons:
(01) It is a remnant of analog technologies.
(02) It is linear.
(03) It is limited to to a pre-set bit rate.
(04) It has drop outs.
(05) It is difficult to store.
(06) It is fragile because it has moving parts.
(07) It is wasteful in material as compared to flash cards.
(08) Quality control is difficult.
(09) It requires an intermediate codec.
(10) It can not evolve without a totally new design format.
When you see the size of an SDHC card and you imagine that a one terabyte version could store the equivalent of over 100 tapes, you realise how obsolete HDV is.
All I know is you guys better not be talkin smack about my P2 cards.
In my opinion 'Nothing is dead until Red' becomes availible in Best Buy. When you can drive down to best buy and pick a fixed lens Scarlet then we'll talk about dying formats.