28 Replies Latest reply on Oct 19, 2008 9:52 AM by Paul_LS

    Timeline in PRE7

    Level 1
      Fine, at last I got PRE7.
      One surprise so far, are the place of the audio tracks. Nothing I read in the manual nor in Steve's tips that it has been changed.
      Even when I delete all empty tracks and add f.e. 2 new audio tracks (after the last track), they appear above the video 1 track.
      Is Abobe trying to make life difficult for me or did I overlook something?
      Rob
        • 1. Re: Timeline in PRE7
          Paul_LS Level 4
          It is the same as was in PE4, earlier versions were different.
          • 2. Re: Timeline in PRE7
            Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional
            Yep. And I did point that out in my Steve's Tips for version 4. ;)
            • 3. Re: Timeline in PRE7
              Level 1
              I'm still using PRE3, so most of the topics about v4 I missed. The only reason for abandoning v3 is the AVCHD issue.
              If there is a link available to one of the tips in my issue, that would be appreciated.
              I was happy with the separation of audio-and videotracks but I understand Adobe wasn't for certain (my unknown) reason.
              I'm trying to find a workaround now.
              Rob
              • 4. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional
                "If there is a link available to one of the tips in my issue, that would be appreciated"

                What issue is that, Robert?

                With over 160+ FAQs here and dozens of Steve's Tips articles at http://www.muvipix.com plus my new book on version 7, I'm sure I can direct you to something about just about anything! ;)
                • 5. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                  Level 1
                  Thanks for the answer Steve. This attitude makes this forum so valuable for users, I hope that this is widely appreciated.
                  The issue is that the tracks on the timeline are mixed up with audio and video tracks. Rather than have them split between video tracks above the "line" and audio tracks under the "line". This makes mixing of audiotracks certainly not easier for me.
                  BTW I found in the meantime also the muvipix forum and the book is on my wishlist (The Euro-Dollar rate makes it extra interesting to put an order with Amazon)
                  I'm happy using the English version instead of the Dutch one, especially to make use of these resources.
                  Rob
                  • 6. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                    Paul_LS Level 4
                    PE7 has an audio mixer where you can mix the audio tracks... makes it easier.
                    • 7. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                      Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional
                      Robert, it sounds like what you want is for the video tracks to all be on the top half of the timeline and the audio tracks on the bottom half. This is the way timelines used to be set up in versions 1, 2 and 3 of this program.

                      Unfortunately, it's not possible to change the way it is in versions 4 and 5, with the audio and video tracks paired together. The reason for this is that, otherwise, as you add clips to upper video tracks, the audio for that clip was appearing sometimes several tracks away, which can be very confusing.

                      If you go to the Window drop-down and select Show Docking Headers, you'll see a >> flyout menu button on the upper right corner of the timeline. Click on it and select Hide Audio Tracks and this will hide all but the three main audio tracks: Narration, Soundtrack and Audio 1.

                      I often do this if I'm going to be working with several layers of video tracks and I'm trying to save vertical timeline space.
                      • 8. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                        Level 1
                        Thanks, I'll try to get accustomed to this.
                        Rob
                        • 9. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                          the_wine_snob Level 9
                          Robert,

                          I share your feelings on this layout, but then I use Premiere Pro for 99% of my editing. That is the way that it is setup. If I were contacted by Adobe, I'd vote for the "old" layout.

                          However, on the P-Pro forums, many people long for the setup that PE uses now. I do not understand that desire, but then I am "old-school." I used to edit film with my A and B rolls on the top two plates and then my Audio and SFX on the bottom two plates. It is about how one learns and becomes most comfortable. Mentally, I separate my Video and my Audio and usually edit with this separation in mind, especially as I use L and J cuts a great deal.

                          You and I just have to realize that we are in the minority, with regards to the market that PE is going after. Had I been using PE3, I'd have pitched a fit, when PE4 came out for this one reason. I still find that I "loose" my Audio (in my mind), with the newer layout, just like those folk on P-Pro, who never fully grasp where their Audio is there.

                          Hunt
                          • 10. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                            Level 1
                            Bill
                            Nice to hear I'm not alone.
                            I was already puzzled that I had to abandon my A/B editing, now the more complicated audio handling is on top of that.
                            In version three my properties window was part of my workarea. That's the place where your movie is developed. Now I have to open it seperately.
                            Introducing upload to Youtube and other "features" are better selling points than a smooth handling for the (more or less) serious amateur.
                            Still I leave with PRE, I don't want to throw away 12 years of experience and the support of this forum.
                            Rob
                            • 11. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                              Level 1
                              I want to exclude every misunderstanding! Of course I wanted to tell that I will STAY with PRE.
                              Sorry for the mistake.
                              Rob
                              • 12. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                the_wine_snob Level 9
                                Robert,

                                I believed that you were staying with PE all along. Glad to see that I was correct.

                                Hunt
                                • 13. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                  Level 1
                                  have just upgraded to PE7. Problem, when I want to add clips to the timeline, I have different clips-some .AVI(Digital Camera) and some .VOB (Video Camera).
                                  When I try to add them to the Timeline, they end up in DIFFERENT tracks !!
                                  Even when I add them to the Sceneline, when I go back to the Timeline, they are in different tracks. How do I get them all in the same track? This did not happen in PE4.

                                  just unlinked my video from audio and it seems as if the audio is the problem. I was able to insert the video on the same track but noy the audio.
                                  Also,when I try to find the clip in my oriject, I get a message-"The selected file cannot be linked becaauseit has 6 audio channels and the clip was created with 2 audio channels."

                                  This is the same clip! What is going on?
                                  • 14. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                    Paul_LS Level 4
                                    If one clip is stereo and the other 5.1 surround sound then they will be placed on different tracks. Do you see a little 5.1 to the left of the audio track?

                                    It will place the 5.1 audio video on track 4... you can of course delete any unused tracks so the two clips are on tracks above each other. Why the issue with working with a video on a different track?

                                    Also if I unlink the audio, move the video down to the first track I have no problems. Can you explain your problem a little more!!
                                    • 15. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                      Level 1
                                      The issue with the 5.1 and stereo never happenned with PE4.

                                      The unlink--when I unlink the video from the audio, I can place the video on the same video track as all the other videos(e.g. video 1), but the audio will stay on audio 2 when the rest of the audio is on audio 1.

                                      It is very disconcerting since it is hard to split video clips and blend the .avi with the .vob

                                      Is there a solution or will I have to go back to PE 4?
                                      • 16. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                        Paul_LS Level 4
                                        Using multiple tracks while editing is what makes PE7 a very powerfull editor. Anyways... you can not place stereo and 5.1 audio on the same audio track. You can unlink your audio and video as you have and then export the 5.1 audio as stereo and place it on the stereo audio track. Delete your 5.1 audio and then delete the 5.1 track. To export your 5.1 audio as stereo place the work area bar over the section you want to export, then go to File>Export>Audio. In Settings make sure to select export work bar area only.

                                        Or you could convert your video clip to stereo in another application before bringing it into PE7.
                                        • 17. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                          Level 1
                                          the AVCHD clips will not be displayed on timeline. I cannot edit.
                                          The camera is Panasonic HDC-SD100, I am using Wondows XP SP3, Pentium 4, 3.0 GHz, 1 GB RAM.
                                          • 18. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                            Level 1
                                            I do not have a blue ray device want to produce a HD 1080i to be streemd by netgear EVA8000
                                            • 19. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                              Paul_LS Level 4
                                              Chakrovertty, better to start your own thread as your issue is different. If you use clips with DD 5.1 audio in a non 5.1 project they will be placed on track 4. Have you looked at track 4? Please start your own thread.
                                              • 20. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                Level 1
                                                Paul,
                                                Thanks,
                                                But it is interesting that I never had this issue with PE 4 and I was mixing the 5.1 with the Stereo . Could I possibly adjust my video camera to do only stereo and not 5.1? I have a Sony mini dvd 403.
                                                • 21. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                  Paul_LS Level 4
                                                  Since they have introduced AVCHD editing in PE7 the 5.1 audio has been placed on it's own timeline, PE4 did not support AVCHD.

                                                  Not sure if you can capture in stereo... probably best to check the camcorder manual.
                                                  • 22. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9
                                                    Allen,

                                                    I believe that you are mistaken about any Adobe product mixing mono, stereo and/or 5.1 Audio sources on the same track. None will. Because of the way that Adobe products handle Audio, these different sources must be kept separate. In the full Premiere line, it has been that way since the beginning (though 5.1 was not available then). Even Premiere Pro CS3 does this. It will "create" an appropriate Audio Track, should one not exist. If there is one, it will first attempt to place the Audio there. It is the same in PE4. As I have never used P Elements prior to version 4, I cannot positively say that previous versions did it the same way, but since much of the various Elements programs are based on what became the Pro series of NLE's, and they could never mix Audio sources, I'd have to say that it is a good assumption that Elements versions < 4 could not do it either.

                                                    In Premiere Pro, it's a lot easier to see exactly where the Audio sources are going, than in Elements > 3, because of a different display scheme for the Timeline. With Elements > 3, the program will try to keep the Video & Audio together, thus placing the Audio on an appropriate Audio Track and the Video on "another" Video Track, as you observed. In Pro, you can place the Video of a mux'ed file where ever you like, but the Audio will still go only on an appropriate Audio Track, and one will be created, if it does not exist in the Sequence already.

                                                    Your method of un-Linking mux'ed source files is the best method. Paul's method will do the same (using an Audio editor to convert the signal of, say 5.1 to stereo). You have basically demux'ed the combined file into elemental streams.

                                                    In Elements > 3, it's hard to tell much about an Audio Track. I do not know if it was easier in 3, or earlier. In Pro, there are "speaker" icons, that tell you the Audio Track layout, mono (one speaker), stereo (two speakers) and 5.1 ("5.1" appears in the Track title). Also, in Pro, you need to establish the Master mix for each Sequence (kinda' think Project in Elements, as a Sequence is a mini-Project within a main Project). My default Sequence is 2 mono, 2 stereo and a 5.1 Master.

                                                    Hunt
                                                    • 23. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                      Level 1
                                                      Paul,
                                                      I can't seem to isolate the "work bar area". I have highlighted the audio clip to export-turned it purple- but when I save it- and I DO go to settings and do work area bar only- it renders the entire audio in the timeline instead of just the small part I want. Is that what is supposed to happen? I can't seem to be able to export just the small section I want.
                                                      No.2-which file type is the best? Microsoft waveform, Microsoft AVI, Quicktime, or Audio interchange file format. It seems that the default is Microsft waveform.
                                                      Thanks
                                                      • 24. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                        VideoJohnny Level 1
                                                        >I believe that you are mistaken about any Adobe product mixing mono, stereo and/or 5.1 Audio sources on the same track. None will. Because of the way that Adobe products handle Audio, these different sources must be kept separate

                                                        Tha statement is not true when it comes to prior versions on Premiere Emelemts. Up through version 4, you can mix stereo and mono sound on the same teack. It always worked that way.
                                                        • 25. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                          Paul_LS Level 4
                                                          The work bar area is the grey bar above the timeline with handles one each end. drag the handles so just the clip with the audio you want to export is selected.

                                                          You need to go File>Export>Audio.. the default audio export option should be fine.
                                                          • 26. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                            the_wine_snob Level 9
                                                            JohhnyO,

                                                            My assumption, based on the engine in Pro, was absolutely incorrect, as was my assertion that PE would not mix Audio file sources. I just Imported one each, mono, stereo and 5.1 (AC3) into PE and all were allowed on the same Audio Track. Elements does not seem to mind. Big surprise for me. Totaly unlike Pro! I stand very corrected. Does anyone know if there are differences in PE7, regarding this behvoir?

                                                            Now, what happens with mux'ed files? Does it still behave that way? I only tried PE4 with elemental Audio streams. I'll create a series of mux'ed source files and see what happens.

                                                            Thanks for the correction,

                                                            Hunt
                                                            • 27. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                              the_wine_snob Level 9
                                                              Just did the test with mux'ed files. All Imported fine, and all went onto Video & Audio Tracks 1. One thing that I did notice was that the mono mux'ed Audio Track became stereo, when placed on the Timeline (actually, dual-mono, but a second Channel was created.). I found this to be strange. Also, the 5.1 characteristics of the AC3 (mux'ed MPG file) were lost completely and a stereo Audio Track was created for it, as well. The spatial placement of sounds in the AC3 Export were lost in PE4.

                                                              Went back to my mono WAV file and when it was placed on the Timeline, it too became a dual-mono (2 Channel) Audio file.

                                                              This indicates to me, that PE doesn't directly work with some Audio sources, but makes a change. Checking the true mono Audio file in the Source Monitor indicates that this conversion is done upon Import, as the file is 2-channel from the Project Panel.

                                                              I cannot seem to get a mono file to stay mono (1 Channel), as at some point, it's duplicated into 2-channel by PE.

                                                              Note: all of these files do come into Pro with their proper settings for Audio: mono, stereo and 5.1 AC3. PE doesn't seem to care, as it makes the Audio source 2-channel, regardless of the type that they are in originally.

                                                              Interesting.

                                                              Went back to my Project with the elemental Audio streams and there too, the mono became 2-channel, and the 5.1 AC3 became stereo. I had not noticed this when first testing.

                                                              It also does not seem possible to set the Master Mix-down for a Project in PE. Maybe by building "custom" pre-sets, or something. In Pro, this is done with the creation of the Sequences, after setting the initial Master in the Project. PE4 just assumes that you want 2-channel Audio, regardless of whether it's dual-mono, or stereo. Maybe PE7 does something different with 5.1 source files. I don't have it, so cannot test.

                                                              Hunt
                                                              • 28. Re: Timeline in PRE7
                                                                Paul_LS Level 4
                                                                As I said in an earlier post Adobe had to put 5.1 audio on a seperate track in PE7 because of the AVCHD support. Not exactly sure what the issue was but there were a number of issues with AVCHD 5.1 audio in a mixed format audio timeline (audio not playing or audio coming and going).