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What type of AVI files are they??
>high quality AVI's from my Nikon D90 (1280*720, 24 fps at 12061 Kbps)
looking at a chart of specs on the Nikon D90, the video is Motion JPEG
D-Movie: the worlds first* D-SLR movie mode
In a world first* for D-SLRs, the D90 offers a movie function, allowing you to shoot 320 x 216 pixels, 640 x 424 pixels or HD720p (1,280 x 720 pixels) movies at the professional smoothness of 24 frames per second in motion JPEG format.
What's the PC spec? How have you got the memory configured (in terms of virtual memory settings)? I had some initial difficulties but then switched to "system managed size" setting and that seemed to provide better memory handling (with AVCHD clips, not motion JPEG though).
Dual Pentium 3Ghz with 2Gig of Ram and System Managed Swap Space running on XP with the latest service packs (5.1.2600 Service Pack 3), Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU, Gigabyte Technology - X38-DQ6 Mainboard,
What version of Premiere Elemnts are you using? the new PE7 should be able to handle the clips better than the older versions. What project preset are you using? Are you using the HDV 1280x720 project preset? PE is probably struggling with the large number of high resolution MJPEG clips that you are putting on the timeline.
Bought PE7 online a few days ago and am using HDV720P as the preset.
Don't even get to put the clips on the timeline, the problem occurs when I do the import....seems I can only import 2 Gig of video in total.
If PE7 is unable to handle what amounts to only a few minutes of HD Video then it is next to useless and I will make sure I get my money back.
Surely I can't be the only person editing High Def Vids having this problem ???
PE7 can load large HDV video projects. I suspect your issue is the MJPEG format. PE7 handles high definition HDV MPEG2 and AVCHD without issue. How are you importing the files... using Get Media and importing them from a folder on your hard drive? What is the total duration of all the clips you are loading? I have downloaded some 1280x720 sample clips form the D90 and can import them and place them on the timeline. There again it is only 5 minutes of video.
I think what I am demonstrating is that PE7 in fact cannot handle large HDV projects which are in MJPEG.
Yes I am using the 'Get Media from PC Files or Folders' option and have run through the totals and end up with about 10 minutes of video in about 38 files totaling just on 2 Gig.
Now unless there is some magic setting or config which I am unaware of I can only imagine this bug rearing its ugly head again and again as I get the impression Nikon are selling a few D90's and that Movies produced from DSLR's are going to become standard.
The reason I have the D90 is because of the quality it produces, now I just software which is up to the task !
Now I just tried importing in smaller blobs of video and then each time pasting these to the timeline and then pressing Enter to render them as I go and have discovered another bug which I am sure is related to the low memory one I have !
When I click to playback it starts OK, then starts dropping audio and then starts dropping video and then crashes all together and sends off a bug report to Microsoft !
Get the impression there are others having a similar problem...
Bugs Bugs and more BUGS !!!!!
Here is a screenshot of my PC in the process of dropping video frames :-
Not even cracking a sweat really !!!!
One thing you could do, but it is just a workaround, is to export each clip as a HDV MPEG2 using the 1280x720 preset and then bring these back in for editing.
The problem I am experiencing is not with the editing of clips, can't even get to the point where I can drop them on the timeline. I experience memory and crash issues simply when I try to import the clips.
If I only import a couple small clips at a time then all is OK but as soon as I want to do something useful, like edit more than 10 min of video at the same time, then it fails.
Is frustrating as I decided to buy this software as I thought it would be better than Microsofts free Movie Maker. It of course has its own issues but as far as I can see isn't struggling with the Hi Def stuff generated by my Nikon D90.
Will formally log a fault call with Adobe and if there is no magic fix then will get a refund !
Hi Andrew, Barb over on the Muvipix forum is following this thread and pointed to a possible issue with the MJPEG codec you are using. Maybe this is the reason I am not seeing issues and you are. In this thread the user had memory issues with MJPEG files until he installed the LEAD MJPEG codec (post from Sergi near bottom of the first page). http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1367&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
And in this thread http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3276 where he says:
"The default codec has big problems with memory leak, it looks like doesn't free the memory when many separate files are imported into the project and moreover is not using more then 1,5 GB RAM (I have 4 GB installed). That's why I'm using LEAD codec which is working great. With the MS codec after 5-10 minutes of video I was not able to add any more files. My project has 200-300 short AVI files each one is cut to 5-30 sec."
LEAD codec can be downloaded here (you can download the trial version to see if it helps, it only costs $9.95 if it is the issue):
It has solved the memory problem but has introduced a whole new one, I import all my vids which now works perfectly, paste them all into the timeline...that works perfectly too, but now when I play the vids in the timeline they twitch every few seconds (stop and rewind a frame or two and then start again, all in an instant) but on a continual basis.
Have tried rendering the clip but makes no difference.
** UPDATE - Just reinstalled and rebooted the PC and all seems OK, will do some testing !
"Unfortunaly M-JPEG is not a standard or even standardized -- each vendor has their own codecs and normally M-JPEG files created with one codec cannot be read with other vendor's codecs. "
I saw that somewhere on the net recently. It seems your experience bears that out! But I wonder whether any software came with the camera, and whether you did install it (which might have caused the problem) or you didn't install it (which also might have caused the problem?!)?
Spent some time testing and so far the video has been spot on but the audio stops and starts. If I exit the application and restart then all is OK with the Audio...for a while anway.
Before I do anything will chase down the latest audio drivers.
And if I still struggle will get to the point where I can duplicate it at will...at the moment I am not sure why the audio suddenly starts to get choppy.
(Thanks to Paul LS for the tip with the CODEC...maybe Adobe can drop this into their Application and save everybody a whole lot of pain).
Still reckon the Adobe stuff is a bit iffy, opened an image taken from a Canon G7, 10.2Mpixel camera and Photoshop Elements told me it was approaching the limit in size of what it was able to work with.....gotta be joking !
If I can't sort the audio in a day or two then Adobe can have this mess back....am spending way too much time chasing bugs.
The single best solution to working with MJPEG video is to convert it using Windows MovieMaker before importing it into Premiere Elements, per the FAQs at the top of this forum.
As you can probably tell, I am no video expert but have been involved at the sharp end of IT since the mid 70's. Get the impression video and IT are only just starting to figure out how they merge together.
The best solution (for me) and one I would be happy to pay money for is for the provider of Video Editing Applications to cater for content produced from up and coming popular video capture devices. I can remember using punch cards, which to me is equivalent to trans coding...all in all was fun but a complete waste of everyones time.
Now having had my little vent I can say all is working perfectly.....with the latest Audio Drivers installed and the tip for the MJPEG Codec from Paul LS....I am now happily editing.
Whoo Hooo !!!
Whoo Hoo indeed, Andrew!
> The best solution (for me) and one I would be happy to pay money for is for the provider of Video Editing Applications to cater for content produced from up and coming popular video capture devices.
It's taken a while for Adobe to support AVCHD clips, which have been up and coming for around two years. I think it's the Adobe style to sit on the fence and watch the rest deal with the issues arising from new formats, then step in when the dust settles.
From a stockholder's perspective, that is not a bad approach. Some of the "hot" formats today, are but history tomorrow. It takes time and money to code for each new format. If that format is a dead end, the time/$ is wasted.
Afterall, Adobe is a traded company. They are first in business to make money. Next, is to produce really good software.
In my youth, I was an early adopter. I had to have the latests, fastest, greatest. Now, I go with what works, until I can be convinced to upgrade/update. Back 30 years ago, I'd be screaming, "hey, this new XXX is going to introduced at Photokina, or NAB in six months. Why doesn't Adobe offer support for it?" Not so much anymore. Anyone remember HD-DVD?
I am late to this thread but I am having essentially the same problems that Andrew was having when he originated the thread.
I am using PE7 in an attempt to edit and render a project consisting of AVCHD video captured from my Sony HDR-S11 hard drive HD camcorder. I bought PE7 and a new computer (XP Pro SP3, Intel 9400 Quad core processor, 4 GB RAM, ATI Radeon 3600 video card with 512 MB on-board processor, etc) specifically to handle AVCHD.
Capture of the video clips was not much of a problem. But when I drag the clips down to the Scene Line, problems are nearly constant. The usual sign that I'm getting in trouble is a message that says Adobe is low on physical memory and that I should save my project and proceed with caution. Even after I save the project, no matter how "cautious" I try to be, soon thereafter I get either a hang-up or an uncommanded termination of the program. The hang-ups seem to occur almost immediately if I try to preview any of my clips. The video starts out OK but the audio lags then skips, at which point the video hangs up as well. I've never been able to preview two consecutive clips without some kind of program failure.
With a lot of patience (and frequent saves), I finally got all of my captured clips into the project (just short of 1 1/2 hours long). But now when I try to add scene transitions, menu markers or title overlays, I get hang-up after hang-up.
This is very frustrating because I NEVER had problems like this in PE4 using taped-based HDV from my previuous Sony HD camcorder. I have gone through most of the suggestions in the Knowledge Base and have uninstalled and reinstalled the program. Nothing has helped.
W Don Roth,
I suggest that you start your own thread because this thread did include problems that were specific to the MJPEG format and your video is AVCHD format. Creating a new thread where the title includes "AVCHD" should bring more attention to your specific problem.
When you start a new thread could you please put a pointer to the new thread at the bottom of this one so we link similar issues.
As far as the issue goes, have you tried using one of the LEAD Codecs.
"From a stockholder's perspective, that is not a bad approach. Some of the "hot" formats today, are but history tomorrow. It takes time and money to code for each new format. If that format is a dead end, the time/$ is wasted."
Don't agree at all, its not about the format it is about the customer.......think one of the issues with all of the bugs in PE7 is the different approach of the development team compared to say Adobe Lightroom.
Lightroom is just a fantastic product and does everything just the way it is supposed to, everybody I know just raves about it and it is just amazing...I just LOVE IT....a Marketers Dream.
Worth noting that when Nikon released the D90, which has of course its own special version of RAW file that Adobe very quickly released an update so Nikon users were able to use Lightroom.
Sure Lightroom and PE7 are in a different price catagory but one one hand the Lightroom guys worked really hard to make sure they had a solution for Nikons in double quick time. The PE7 guys seem to be asleep at the wheel ?
Well I am a Nikon Photography guy being introduced to video through my super cool D90, who has high expectations simply because Lightroom is so fantastic and every other Adobe product I have used has been of exceptional quality.
To say that Adobe should ignore a HOT NEW FORMAT simply because other HOT NEW FORMATS have disappeared into oblivion is a little odd.
If anything it is the opposite, PE7 and Adobe have the opportunity of capturing the customers of the devices that produce HOT NEW FORMATS !!!!
To "W Don Roth" - Stick with it, the forums worked for me...was frustrating but got there in the end.
I think that you need a broader perspective, than from behind your monitor.
On a purely economic level, you need to understand how a software company, like Adobe operates. Marketing does research on how many units they anticipate selling at a price-point that fits into their market. They then survey the competitors, as closely as they can, plus look into the crystal ball, to attempt to spot the new features, formats and CODECs, that are in existence, or are likely to come into existence, before product launch. They take their target price-point and subtract all hard costs like packaging and advertising. Then they ask engineering for a cost to put in the features, fix any bugs and get the product ready for a ship-by date. Engineering gives them a figure, a budget, if you will. What is left over is profit. There are myriad other factors, but lets just say that things like Returns, Lost Merchandise, etc., are then factored out of the Profit. Keep that word Profit handy, as Ill come back to it in a moment.
Now, engineering, tech support and marketing all sit down and go over a list of requested features. Within this list are many items that their user focus-groups have asked for. All the features are assigned a number, ranking them from Must Have, to Not So Much. All the while, engineering is having to deduct from their stated budget, in either time, or money. At some point, going from the top of this list, engineering is forced to say Stop. That is all we can do. Are there any good features that did not get included? Of course there are. Some show up in updates, if there are any, and the rest will go onto the list for the next version, or die, because that market either did not materialize or died.
On that list, could be support for the video from some hot new phone, but at the time of the finalizing of the features list, there were just too few people using it yet. Remember, these decisions are being done a year, or more, out. Changes can be made during the development, but something else is likely to have to go.
Engineering gets to work on the product and has to make sure that every new feature added does not break something already in the base code. It is a real bug, when something like that happens. Along this path, some features that made it to the short list, will be found to be impossible to implement. Also, marketing is likely to run in and say wait, dont add feature X, because the company developing it just filed for Chapter 7. Things change. Development is a very dynamic process. For every feature added, after the budget has been approved, something has to give - price-point, delivery date, other features - something has to give. If marketing sees that they will only sell a few additional pieces of software, if they add an expensive feature, guess what? I does not get added.
Now, lets say that they make budget, get most of the requested features, fix a few bugs, hit the price-point and make the deadline. Then they have to sell the projected number of units to make their profit. Oops, theres that word again. Time to address it.
Adobe is a successful software company. One of the reasons is that they have shareholders, who have basically given Adobe money to operate and develop software. These are philanthropists, or foundations. These are the real people, who have given Adobe money. Why, you may ask? Well, because they want more money back. That is where profit comes in. If Adobe cannot deliver more money back, then the investments dry up. If they cant deliver enough quickly enough, the investments dry up. With no investor money, Adobe shuts its doors. No more Adobe. It has happened to so very many good software companies. Factor in one more little problem: there is a junior analyst is some investment house, who, while eating carrot sticks, decides that Adobe will hit a certain number for that quarter. This can be based on a vast knowledge of the software business and the market, but could be a wild guess. Now, Adobe has to make its projected profit, plus this analysts projection as well. If not, then the analyst publishes a report that hits the investment media and pans Adobe as not being a good company, into which one should invest. Investments dry up.
Can you see why a feature might not be included in the current release of a software product? Also, during the time of development (a year, or more before release), new technology is being developed. Some might get rushed into the design phase, but something will have to give. Some is just too new, with an untested user-base, and a wait and see, attitude has to be implemented.
Youre a Nikon guy, so am I. Ive owned most Nikons since the SP-105. All of my 4x5 and 8x10 optics are Nikon. I even owned an Apo EL Nikkor 105 f/2.5 lens, that was designed by NASA to do one thing, make absolutely perfect 1:1 reproductions. It costs US$5000 in 1981. It wasnt until the Nikon digital era, that I didnt have the latest and best. Now, I purchase exactly what I need.
Ah, the digital era. Back when digital capture first hit, I had two competitors, who sprung for complete digital studios. They were the first in my region. Their investments were about a quarter of a million dollars. Each went to their bankers and borrowed the money. They hit the area with advertising blitzes on how they had DIGITAL. In about two years, I sprung, but prices had fallen tremendously, as competition heated up. My gear cost ¼ what theirs did. My gear was 10x faster and 10x better. They were still paying their bank notes on obsolete gear, much of which could not be adapted. Soon, both closed their doors, and the banks attempted to get pennies on the dollars, they had loaned. Most of the items were now museum pieces, with little or no value, because technology had eclipsed it. Things move quickly in the digital age.
When one buys into the newest and greatest, they have to be patient for the rest of technology to catch up, or live with the possibility that they bought in too soon, and may have purchased into a dead end. Happens all too often. When a software company buys into the latest technology, with no thoughts on profit, or markets, the same thing can happen. We, the consumers look at Adobe as big corporation with a cellar lined with gold bars. Heck, they could easily give up a few of those, just to make us happier, couldnt they? That is not the case, however. It costs them to keep their doors open and the world of software development and investors is a cruel one, at best. We need to keep that in mind.
Also remember that your Nikon D90 is targeted at still photographers first. It has a motion feature, but it is targeted at still photographers. It's motion features will be incorporated into the Adobe lines of NLEs, if it sells and is used for video, but it is not a video camera. Right now, Adobe is concentrating on video cameras, as that is what 99% of its user-base is producing motion footage from.
Heck, I can't feed my 16mm footage from my Beaulieu PZM2000 into any Adobe product, without first converting/digitizing it. Bummer! This was a top-notch motion camera with Schneider 12-120 optics, albeit from way before the "digital era."
As for "Hot New Formats," I see that PE doesn't work with footage from the Red cameras. PP doesn't yet, but additional software is under development. That is the "hot new format," and it's a video camera, not a still camera, that also does some video.
Was almost going to not bother to respond but hate to think others like myself might be put off from stating what, from a customers perspective, would be excellent to add to a product and what is frustrating.
Don't be too concerned about Adobe's profitability and development strategy, they are fine !
So appreciate your detailed response but let me make my single little newbie customer opinion really clear....think Lightroom is just amazing, as are many of the other Adobe products but also reckon they should try harder with PE7. Is that so bad ?
As for the new Red Camera's....read the Wiki and you will find they are indeed similar in concept to the way Nikon and other DSLR manufacturers are developing their technologies to be used for video.
Either you keep missing the point, or maybe I'm just not making it clearly.
Take a look at what your camera produces. It is a version of MJPEG. PE has worked with MJPEG in most flavors, so long as one has the necessary CODECs (like Morgan, Main Concept or similar), and these are usually installed by the mfgr's software installation disc. What you have is a variation of MJPEG.
The Red camera's Export is also a variation, albeit a major variation. Work is being done to develop the proper plug-ins to allow Pro (do not know about PE, but would suspect that since it's a pro-camera, it will likely not be included in the forseeable future) to work with that footage. The brand new, just started shipping, CS4 can't handle the Red camera today, and probalby not tomorrow. Sound rumors are that it will be ready Q1 '09.
Now, with Photoshop, I have to download the latest ARC plug-in for my Nikons. Oops, I only have CS2 right now. The newest Nikon NEFs are in the latest ARC, but it will not work in CS2, only CS3 and above. Heck, if I had bought a newer Nikon, I'd have to upgrade to CS3, just to work on my NEF's. Bummer! Now, I haven't acquired a newer Nikon, and CS4 will probably be on my systems soon. Point will be moot. Now, I could use Nikon Capture for the newer style NEFs. I could then go to Adobe's DNG and bring these into PS CS2, but gosh, CS2 can't, and never will be able to, handle the newer NEFs.
It's good that just before release, Nikon does give Adobe the specs. on their NEF. However, this is for still camera formats, not the ancillary video formats. The folk at Adobe might be good, but I don't think that mindreading is part of their job description. And still, you have to ask how large is the user-base for the Nikon MJPEG format. Why did Nikon change beyond the Morgan CODEC? My guess is that they thought they had a better format. Did they anticipate that people might want to edit this footage, and in something beyond what might have come on the Nikon DVD? I cannot answer that.
I'd recommend spending a day, or two on the Premiere Pro forums, just reading about the format wars. Don't limit yourself to only the CS4, or the CS3, but go back into the CS2 forums. Look what is and what is not handled. Look also at what was hot in '06 - "going to set the video world on fire... " and many of these are gone now.
For you, I wish that PE did what you need. If I had a newer Nikon, I'd wish that the latest ARC would work in CS2. That is understanable.
I also hope that Nikon and Adobe can work something out, or maybe Main Concept can offer something from the 3rd parties camp. You just have to realize that what we're talking about here are still cameras, that also happend to do some limited video. Still, for a comsumer-oriented program like PE, it's nice when they do include support.
Matter-of-fact, that is why I added PE to my arsenal of programs - Pro did not handle some consumer stuff well enough for a few clients. I still spend 99% of my day in Pro, or in PS.
Kind words indeed, especially coming from you. Some will say that I am just an Adobe "apologist," but then we're all just "users" in this henhouse. However, I've been using Adobe products from before many in this forum were born. Some were even Aldus, when I got them. Still have a half-dozen Adobe programs, that have not been around for over a decade, but they do certain things for me, so I keep 'em. Luckily, most of these are on 3.25 diskettes. I'd have to crank up a real "legacy" machine if the were on 5.5 floppies.
Now, I just gave your name to a fellow on the CS4 Pro forum, and suggested that he ping you in the Audition forum. He seems to have gotten some bum info for pro-audio for use in Video. Went out and bought a couple thousand $'s in software and hardware, only to find that he didn't get much and nothing seemed to work. He was pulling hair, but managed to return much of it. If you see something from "Jujufactory," he's doing music videos in Africa and could use some real Audio help. I also gave him Neil Wilkes' name on the Encore forum, since he also does serious pro-sound going to DVD. Hope you don't mind.
Again, sorry to sound like a post from one of the lounges, but thanks for the comments.