11 Replies Latest reply on Mar 18, 2008 6:43 AM by Todd_Kopriva

    CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3

      Just opened a project that I originally created in AE7 that is using CC cylinder to create a simple odometer-like effect. In CS3 the discs are being created at a different aspect (almost as though its interpreting as sq pixel). Is there something that changed in CC's implementation in CS3?

      As a side note along the same lines, I have always used 2D nulls to break the intersection between 3D layers when necessary. As of CS3 that no longer works. What has changed with this? Adjustment layers still work for the same purpose (I just have hundreds of nulls scattered about lots of projects that will have to be swapped if this is something that is not considered a 'bug')
        • 1. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
          Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional
          Not sure about your CC Cylinder issue, but you are correct - 2D nulls no longer create intersecting 3D environments. I now use a solid and push it out of the field of view.
          • 2. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
            Level 1
            Andrew,

            Glad to know I am not going crazy with respect to the null issue. Any insight as to why that would be changed?
            • 3. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
              A. Cobb Level 3
              > Not sure about your CC Cylinder issue, but you are correct - 2D nulls no longer create intersecting 3D environments. I now use a solid and push it out of the field of view.

              Yeah, this new "feature" of CS3 sucks, if for no other reason than it means old projects have to be "debugged" when they are converted. A solid will also work if you turn the opacity down to 0%, FYI.
              • 4. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                Level 1
                Yeah, but you'd think there would be a 'reason' Adobe changed the functionality of nulls or at least they would point out in documentation that this change has occurred, lest you are left to think perhaps there was an install problem or something else afoot.
                • 5. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                  Mylenium Most Valuable Participant
                  >As of CS3 that no longer works. What has changed with this?

                  This behavior has not intentionally changed, it is a fixed bug. Nulls were never supposed to break rendering order (What would be the point of an layer that is invisible, has no physical dimension and contains absolutely no pixes for processing doing so in the first place?), but obviously they did and people just had gotten used to this bug being a feature as designed. The behavior is correct for Adjustment Layers.

                  Mylenium
                  • 6. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                    A. Cobb Level 3
                    Well, for that matter, what is the point of a null having a width, height, color, opacity, etc.? All it really needs is those transform properties that devine a layer space (position, orientation/rotation, scale, maybe pixel aspect ratio). I don't think the null disrupting 3d render order is any more a bug than any of its other similarities to a traditional solid. I sure haven't heard anyone clamoring for this "bug" to be fixed.
                    • 7. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                      Todd_Kopriva Level 8
                      For a list of the layer types that break 3D intersections and shadow casting, see the "How render order and collapsed transformations affect 3D layers" section of After Effects CS3 Help on the Web.

                      > I don't think the null disrupting 3d render order is
                      > any more a bug than any of its other similarities to
                      > a traditional solid. I sure haven't heard anyone clamoring
                      > for this "bug" to be fixed.

                      It was a bug. People were clamoring.

                      > what is the point of a null having a width, height,
                      > color, opacity, etc.? All it really needs is those
                      > transform properties that devine a layer space
                      > (position, orientation/rotation, scale, maybe pixel
                      > aspect ratio).

                      If you're linking other layers' properties to those of a null layer that you're using as a control layer, it's a lot easier if the null has the same layer properties as the other layers.
                      • 8. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                        A. Cobb Level 3
                        >For a list of the layer types that break 3D intersections and shadow casting, see the "How render order and collapsed transformations affect 3D layers" section of After Effects CS3 Help on the Web.

                        Does that page even say anything about this change to the 2D/3D layer interaction rules? I can't see any mention of nulls, only 2D and 3D layers (both of which categories encompass nulls). Am I missing something?

                        >It was a bug. People were clamoring.

                        I stand corrected. It certainly was a useful bug, and it being fixed breaks old projects that depended on this predictable behavior.

                        >If you're linking other layers' properties to those of a null layer that you're using as a control layer, it's a lot easier if the null has the same layer properties as the other layers.

                        I can see that for, say, opacity, but are people really linking to the colors of null layers? That's not a simple pick-whip operation, and anyone conversant enough in expressions to know how to do this is going to also know about Expression Controls, which are much more convenient. Are you saying these things aren't just an artifact of nulls' heritage as solids? You are obviously in a much better position to know these things, but I find this a bit surprising.
                        • 9. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                          Mylenium Most Valuable Participant
                          Yeah, and technically any Null is just a non-dimensional thing to begin with. How useful would it be to work with something that doesn't even exist? No offense, but it's pointless to argue about such details. There's a difference between technical/mathematical abstraction and practical application. Just like you would want particles in a particle system to render (which are yet another case of those little non-dimensional entities as long as you're thinking mere simulation of the dynamics), you want your Nulls to be somehow visible and have certain base properties which by no means must be intrinsic or naturally derived. Much to the chagrin of Mr. Spock: Logic is not always everything.

                          Mylenium
                          • 10. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                            A. Cobb Level 3
                            >Yeah, and technically any Null is just a non-dimensional thing to begin with.

                            I wouldn't say that. A null is a set of transformations, and defines a 2- or 3-dimensional space in which other objects can live. The question is whether, if you were designing nulls from scratch, you'd give them properties like width, height, color, and opacity (they don't have these sorts of properties in 3D apps, as far as I know). Or, if you were to provide those attributes strictly for reference, why not other attributes like cone angle, depth-of-field, or field of view, all of which have about as much to do with the work of a null as does color. It just seemed more intuitive to assume that a null was implemented by extending the Solid class, and thus has all the attributes of a solid except the ability to show up in the actual render.

                            Not that any of this is a huge deal, or course, I'm just trying to understand how the gears and cogs fit together here.
                            • 11. Re: CC Cylinder aligns differently in CS3
                              Todd_Kopriva Level 8
                              > Does that page even say anything about this change
                              > to the 2D/3D layer interaction rules? I can't see
                              > any mention of nulls, only 2D and 3D layers (both
                              > of which categories encompass nulls). Am I missing
                              > something?

                              I left a comment on the page to alert people to the change in behavior.