Do you see the same problem with DNG files created by DNG Converter or CR/LR?
Do you have example images to show?
The problem images are from a small test for comparing the Highlight tone priority feature to the satndard setting on a Canon 40D.
I haven't tried creating a DNG from LR2 or the DNG converter but as I wrote in the edit above all the beta camera profiles behave the same if you look at the original CR2 files in LR2 (default settings).
I will post some samples on what it looks like to night (Sweden time).
After writing the previus post I noticed that pulling down the black level from the default 5 to zero removes the uggly orange-red posterisation orange-red. Using one of the "good" profiles keeping the black level at five the same areas will be black.
Link to screen capture from LR:
Same file showed with two profiles:
- to the left, Adobe Standard beta 1
- to the right, Camera Standard beta 1
I don't see any posterization; the shadows in the right-side images are plainly flat.
On another note: what is your point with using HTP, when converting with ACR? HTP is nothing but underexposing by one stop (via lowering the effective ISO). DPP increases the intensity by one stop, except in the highlights. ACR increases the intensity by one stop, simply as if you had applied +1 EV on the "exposure" slider; nothing else.
If you think that the shot would be overexposed, apply an exposure bias as much as you think it is required.
HTP is a brute adjustment, meant for JPEG, not for raw.
Stefan, what happens if you do comparisons with HTP disabled in the camera? Do you still get the same results?
ACR's plain increasing of the "exposure" by 1 EV is the action directly on the native raw file by ACR or by the Adobe DNG converter. I don't know, how DxO converts the HTP flag in DNG metadata.
I see the same thing on pictures not using the HTP, not as pronounced as on the previous sample but it's same behavior. My original LR2 editing of this picture was using some Fill Light so it was easy to see.
CR2 Sample using LR default settings, to the left, Adobe Standard beta 1 and to the right, Camera Standard beta 1.
Please note that the problem is the same going DxO->DNG->LR2 as if I test directly on the CR2 in LR2.
Well, the Adobe Standard and Camera Standard beta profiles should have different results since they have different tone curves. Camera Standard's only goal is to get close to the camera maker's rendering when used at the default settings.
I'm not reacting on differences between profiles it's more like a out of gamut ugly behavior in the shadow regions for all the 40D camera beta 1 profiles.
Since all profiles I created using the DNG Profile editor looks ok in the shadow regions i did an experiment. I created a profile based on the Camera Standard beta without changing anything. When applied to a picture in LR2 it looks absolutely identical compared to the original Camera Standard beta 1 on a fit screen view but if zoomed in to 50-100% the "shadow problem is gone on the copy profile.
I can't explain this but I hope you can.
I can send you both profiles if you want me to.
Sure, email the profiles to firstname.lastname@example.org.
I too notice strange looking shadows using the Canon 5D Camera Standard Beta 1 profile, like the shadows have no black, too much magenta, and lots of chroma noise. I notice it particularly when looking in the shadow areas of a person's hair. I liked the rest of the colors in that profile more than all of the others, so I just edited the curve of the profile to clip some of the darks.
I'd like to find a way to combine the shadow detail from the Adobe Standard Beta 1 profile with the skin tones/color of the Camera Standard Beta 1 profile. Spent about 30 minutes using the curve adjuster in DNG Profile Editor, but could never get that close.
Upon further review, it turns out that I see the odd shadows a lot more on my iMac (20" aluminum Intel) than I do on my G5 tower with Cinema Display, both calibrated using the Monaco XRite. The colors are almost identical when looking at the same files, except for the shadows, with the Cinema Display looking a lot smoother and rich in the dark areas. On the iMac, shadows have the look of a severely underexposed image when brightened up.
I am guessing the colorimeter having trouble with the glossy iMac screen.
does anyone has some update on this problem?
I0ve the some one with a Nikon...
codek, this should not be an issue. But even if you do find it to be an issue, it can be fixed with the DNG Profile Editor via a tone curve tweak.
many thanks Eric for your answer,
it is actually an issue, since to have the same look I get with Nikon Capture NX, I need to use the Camera Profiles beta, instead of ACR ones:
the shadow posterization is really quite annoying.
Could you please tell me more about that? What is the cause?
monitor calibration/profile? video card driver?
or just a rendering issue of LR?
is there any document that clearly explain how to tweak the tone curve
with DNG Profile Editor?
I actively participate to an Italian forum (http://www.hwupgrade.it/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=31) where Lightroom is widely used and this issue is actually debated. Our community would be very happy to know why it occurs, and what to do to solve it.
First of all, not sure if you're trying the beta 1 or beta 2 profiles. If you're not using beta 2, give those a try.
If you do have the issue with beta 2, try opening the image that exhibits the issue in Camera Raw and tweaking the Blacks slider (e.g., decrease it from its default value of 5). See if that helps. If that does help, save the adjusted Blacks values as part of your new camera default.
If that doesn't work, try opening the same image in DNG PE. Make sure you choose your preferred profile as your base profile. Then go to the 2nd tab and adjust the shadow portion of the tone curve till you can't see the issue.
I tried both beta1 and beta2 (by the way, they look quite similar for Nikon).
Of course, if I decrease the Blacks value the effect just disappears,
but this also means that the Blacks slider will be actually useless:
it cannot be used to darken the photo!
Why the Blacks give no problems with the other profiles?
Not all my shots show this problem, why this issue does appear?
The fact that I cannot understand what is going on, is quite unpleasant.
thanks again a lot for your support, Stefano
And did you try what I suggested in the 3rd paragraph? If not, please do so. If you did, how did the results look?
that was essentially the workaround I found by myself:
push Blacks to zero, then manage the low lights with the Tone Curve
panel of the Develop module...
but that's a workaround, Blacks slider should work correctly with every profile, right?
I shared a shot of mine with the users of our Italian forum, some people see the posterization, while others have no problems at all.
We cannot understand what is wrong and where, and we are really puzzled: what is the origin of that issue?
A carefull analysis of the problem lead me to this conclusion:
1) Capture NX doesn't show any posterization, so the problem is linked to LR2, and also PS3, that is Adobe Camera Raw
2) it happens only with the Camera profiles beta1/2
3) only some people see this effect, so also the hardware (likely the video card) must be involved
then -> ACR + camera profiles beta + video card(?)
there must be something in this chain that causes a corruption of the data
Codek, if you say that several users noticed it, including yourself, and others don't, the best might be to hunt the common denominator:
What processor do you use?
How much memory?
What graphic card?
Operating system/Service pack.
Color management settings in the operating system/Photoshop/ACR/Bridge
Are the screens calibrated?
What settings on ACR: exact version?
What color profile is selected? 16 bits/8bits?
is a develop setting applied?
The original poster speaks of a Canon camera with Highlight Tone Priority. You speak about a Nikon camera, are you using Active D-Lighting?
I tried both ADL on and off, with the same result. I can see this effect on one PC (pentium 4, 3 GHz, 2GB ram) and two notebook (one DELL centrino duo, 2GB ram, and one Fujitsu-Siemens pentium-m 1.87GHz, 1 GB ram), with both ATI and nVidia video card. All the monitors were calibrated and profiled with i1Match.
Independently from any hardware/software setting: what is important is that the ACR 4.4, 4.3, and the Adobe standard profiles DO NOT cause posterization
ONLY the Camera profiles beta, 1 and 2, show this issue. Is there any substantial difference with respect to the other Adobe profiles?
I see this exact problem, even now, CS4, ACR5.4, LR2.4, Camera Profiles wash out the shadow areas on my CR2 files from 1Ds3. Adobe Standard profile shadows are ok, but people skin tones are soo pink. Can't win either way.
I am using an Apple Macbook Pro 17" (June 2009 model) with built-in display, 24" LED Cinema Display and 30" Cinema Display, all calibrated with ColorEyes Pro and DTP-94.
Canon Software, DPP, all camera styles work without ruining the shadows, and I know ACR is only trying to emulate the camera styles, but whatever curve DPP is applying, its not washing out the shadows in any case.