10 Replies Latest reply on Nov 19, 2008 5:09 PM by Panoholic

    Camera specific WB next?

    Level 1
      I think the new camera specific profiles are excellent and will move many new customer from camera made raw converters to LR.

      It seems like LR manage to read the WB setting in camera and translate that to ACR WB numbers - very good! As shoot, Auto and White balance selector work as expected.

      What still confuse many users are the difference in WB settings when you choose the other setting in the menu. Cloudy gives 6500 temp and +10 tint that is way of for my D300 with to warm WB and a strong cast of pink.

      If I take a test shoot with my D300 set to cloudy in camera and import the picture LR shows WB values of 5650 temp and -1 tint... I've made preset for my camera and don't use the WB menu for this.

      I would suggest that values for Daylight, Cloudy, Shade etc. should be camera specific and match the default values from that camera. Not equal in number, because the different vendors use different number system, but equal in color. Then Adobe would have removed another argument for not using ACR/LR.
        • 1. Re: Camera specific WB next?
          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee
          Sverre, different makers use different names for the in-camera settings so there's no 1-to-1 match here that makes sense.

          There's nothing magical about either the in-camera WB settings or the CR/LR WB settings. They're just presets. If you have a favorite setting (e.g., 5000 temp, -10 tint) then just define your own preset.
          • 2. Re: Camera specific WB next?
            Level 1
            > There's nothing magical about either the in-camera WB settings or the CR/LR WB settings. They're just presets. If you have a favorite setting (e.g., 5000 temp, -10 tint) then just define your own preset.

            Understood. But is there anyway to determine (other than shooting a bunch of
            tests) what the temp/tint values are for a manufacturers in-camera WB settings
            are? Or, more specifically, do the crs:Temperature and crs:Tint values that I
            see in a DNG file after conversion (from an NEF or CR2 file) accurately reflect
            the in-camera WB settings?
            • 3. Re: Camera specific WB next?
              Level 1
              To be spesific: I suggest that Cloudy in LR should give 5650 & -1 for my D300 and 5450 & -3 for my D70. That number does not correspond to the number Nikon use but is the number you get if you import a picture with WB set to Cloudy in camera.

              The Cloudy setting you get now is of no use and give a strong pink cast. Yes - I can make my own preset but I suggest a camera spesific settings so not everybody have to make test pictures and their own presets.
              • 4. Re: Camera specific WB next?
                Thomas Knoll Level 2
                >Understood. But is there anyway to determine (other than shooting a bunch of tests) what the temp/tint values are for a manufacturers in-camera WB settings are? Or, more specifically, do the crs:Temperature and crs:Tint values that I see in a DNG file after conversion (from an NEF or CR2 file) accurately reflect the in-camera WB settings?

                The problem you will run into is the numbers will be specific to your exact camera. They would not work for someone else's camera, even of the same model.
                • 5. Re: Camera specific WB next?
                  Level 1
                  >
                  > The problem you will run into is the numbers will be specific to your exact camera. They would not work for someone else's camera, even of the same model.

                  That's fine. I only have one D80 so, if I understand things correctly, I'll be
                  able to construct presets that match the in-camera's WB settings. Whether or not
                  it will ever actually be useful is a different story.

                  -X
                  • 6. Re: Camera specific WB next?
                    Level 1
                    > The problem you will run into is the numbers will be specific to your exact camera. They would not work for someone else's camera, even of the same model.

                    I'm not sure I understand this. How does LR/ACR handles WB "As shot"? You must have some algorithm to translate the WB values found in the RAW file to corresponding WB values in LR/ACR?

                    If I have 3 D300 and set all cameras to WB "Cloudy" in camera. Will LR/ACR give different WB values for each cameras when I import pictures from them? Do each have some kind of individual calibration bias from default Nikon values?
                    • 7. Re: Camera specific WB next?
                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee
                      > I'm not sure I understand this. How does LR/ACR handles WB "As
                      > shot"? You must have some algorithm to translate the WB values found
                      > in the RAW file to corresponding WB values in LR/ACR?

                      Yes. Interested readers are encouraged to read Chapter 6 of the DNG 1.2 specification and examine the DNG SDK for details.

                      > If I have 3 D300 and set all cameras to WB "Cloudy" in camera. Will
                      > LR/ACR give different WB values for each cameras when I import
                      > pictures from them? Do each have some kind of individual calibration
                      > bias from default Nikon values?

                      In general, photographing a fixed scene (e.g., a color target with a spectrally neutral patch) with 3 different cameras of a given model with identical in-camera settings (such as "Cloudy" WB in your example) will NOT produce identical results. For example, the raw values corresponding to the neutral patch in the resulting 3 images won't be the same. Consequence: If you process these 3 images (from the 3 cameras) using a single, fixed color profile, and try doing a click-WB using the neutral patch for each of the 3 images, you won't get the same temp/tint values.

                      It follows that a given set of temp/tint values will not produce identical results across all 3 cameras.
                      • 8. Re: Camera specific WB next?
                        Panoholic Level 2
                        > If I have 3 D300 and set all cameras to WB "Cloudy" in camera. Will LR/ACR give different WB values for each cameras when I import pictures from them?

                        No, or if it does, then that happens based on some mysterious circumstances.

                        I loaded six images by six different D300, shot with four different ISOs, under different illuminations. "Cloudy" means always (6500,+10).

                        > The Cloudy setting you get now is of no use

                        Are you talking of a scenery shot with "Cloudy" in camera and processed by ACR "As shot", or shot with whatever setting in camera and processed by ACR as "Cloudy"?

                        I suggest you to do following test:

                        1. shoot a grey card, sufficient large for WB template,

                        2. use that shot as WB template,

                        3. shoot the same card again.

                        Now compare the temperatures shown by CNX and by ACR. I guess they will not be the same; however, when processed in ACR "As shot", is the grey grey? If you pick WB on that spot, are the temperature and tint far from the "As shot" value? That is namely the only important issue, not the absolute numbers.

                        > and give a strong pink cast

                        IMO those settings are for JPEG shooters. Depending on the setting, shoot a white/grey patch for picking WB on (for sampling the reflected light), or use a "white disk" for sampling the light source.

                        Moreover, the fact, that clouds are over your head does not mean, that the actual illumination is "cloudy". Reflections from the surroundings change the illumination. I just tested this on images shot in the mountains with much green. It was truly "cloudy", but the setting "cloudy" resulted yellowish/reddish white objects and yellow greenery.
                        • 9. Re: Camera specific WB next?
                          Level 1
                          > Are you talking of a scenery shot with "Cloudy" in camera and processed by ACR "As shot"...

                          Yes and with my camera I get 5650 & -1 as As shot values. If ACR/LR read the same values from every D300 i suggest the Cloudy setting in ACR/LR also should give these values for every D300 and not 6500 & +10 like now.
                          • 10. Re: Camera specific WB next?
                            Panoholic Level 2
                            > If ACR/LR read the same values from every D300 i suggest the Cloudy setting in ACR/LR also should give these values for every D300 and not 6500 & +10 like now

                            I am afraid you misunderstood my post. I stated, that *every time I selected "Cloudy" in ACR the result was (6500,+10). However, this pair of numbers can not (must not) be interpreted on their own, and it is not valid to compare such numbers/pais of numbers in different systems.

                            The usage of the term "temperature" justifies the *intuitive association* of "color temperature" with "temperature". The latter is an absolute measure, as there is an *absolute zero temperature*, and everything is measured from there. However, the color temperature is not absolute; it depends on where the measuring system is located.

                            Thus it is normal, that the actual meaning of a certain "color temperature" differs among interpretations.

                            Please do the test I suggested above and verify the RGB values you get. Furthermore, check out the RGB values shown by CNX on some specific spot in your "cloudy" image, vs the result of ACR, processed "as shot", not "Cloudy". If you find some relevant difference, then I think you have a reason to complain.