21 Replies Latest reply: Dec 4, 2008 8:36 AM by Bill Hunt RSS

    Dip to Black Video Transitions

    Soula-55 Community Member
      I have a problem with the "VIdeo Transitions/Dissolve/Dip to Black". That is, the sequence after rendering played on Premiere CS3 looks fine, but once built with Encore into a folder, and viewed on the computer and on a TV, the transitions are not smooth, they look "noisy", or rather the passage to or from the black is "blochy" not smooth.
      Your input as to how I can remedy this problem will be greatly appreciated.
        • 1. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
          Soula-55 Community Member
          OK everybody,

          I have toiled with this problem, bult on disk, on image then on disk via ImgBurn, according to the advise I was given, could not get rid of this problem. Then I went back to Premiere, I created a black slide and used cross-dissolve just in case....I searched the Premiere forum as well the Encore forum, could not locate any similar problems.....I tried different methods, but whenever a "black" is involved I do not get smooth transitions. Can somebody give me a clue please All my clips are DV avi captured in Premiere, all the slides are made via Photoshop NTSC-preset.

          I have a problem with the dip to black transition on my computer and on the DVD, although the movie created with Premiere CS3 plays fine on my computer.
          The slides are fine, they don`t flicker, cross-dissolve is very smooth, it is only the dip to black in any shape or form that is not smooth. Maybe the word "flicker" is inappropriate, pardon my English, I don`t know how else to say it. It is just that the transition to and from black is not smooth, all else is perfect.

          I will appreciate any clues,ideas, comments or whatever else...

          Thanks

          PS I am using a standard wired mouse
          • 2. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
            Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP
            What is the encoded bit rate of your mpeg2 file?

            It shouldn't matter, but try unchecking "Optimize Stills" in your Premiere Project and Export settings.
            • 3. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
              Soula-55 Community Member
              Thank you Jeff

              The bit rate is 8, I unchecked "Optimize Stills" in Premiere and went back to Encore, transcoded with custom preset: max bitrate 7, DV high quality, 4Mb VBR, 2 pass. Unfortunately the problem still persist.
              • 4. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP
                Is the problem only between still images, or does a dip to black from a video clip do the same thing?

                It's odd, because I have only seen this problem with low bit rates, and then it goes both ways (to or from black).

                I noticed you are working with NTSC; maybe changing the color of your black slide(s) from RGB 0,0,0 to RGB 16,16,16 would help. Again, that shouldn't matter, but who knows?
                • 5. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                  Soula-55 Community Member
                  The problem is the same between stills, clips, and stills-to-clips and clips-to-stills.............. it is always there if "black" is involved, goes both ways to and from black

                  I changed the color of the black slide, I also tried keyframes and played with opacity. Still whenever there is black to and from, the transition is not smooth. (transitions are perfect in Premiere though) it is only in Encore.
                  • 6. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                    Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP
                    Last chance for me: did you transcode your file in Premiere or did you let Encore transcode it?

                    If in Premiere, then can you play the resulting MPEG2 file in Windows Media Player or another media player and get a good result?

                    If you have been transcoding in Encore, then try transcoding in Premiere and vice-versa.

                    Other than that, I have no idea what is causing this problem for you. Sorry.
                    • 7. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                      Soula-55 Community Member
                      I do not get good results with Windows Media Player, nor with any other viewer.

                      Thank you though Jeff, I appreciate your effort to help me.

                      If anybody else has some clues or ideas, please.......
                      • 8. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                        Ruud Blauw Community Member
                        >The bit rate is 8...
                        >...transcoded with custom preset: max bitrate 7, DV high quality, 4Mb VBR, 2 pass.

                        Christine,

                        Did you re-transcode a PPro MPEG-2 file in Encore?

                        When you check a dip-to-black section in Bitrate Viewer what kind of values do you see as bit rate and Q-level?
                        • 9. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                          Soula-55 Community Member
                          Thanks Ruud,

                          From Premiere CS3 I export movies, which I then import in Encore as timelines and set up the menus etc. Then I select the transcoding preset. In Encore, in order to try different settings of transcoding, to see if there is going to be any difference, I first revert then I transcode with another setting, making sute though that I use the bitrate you suggested.

                          The page of the Bitrate Viewer is not available. As soon as there is something I will immediately try to check it
                          • 10. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                            Ruud Blauw Community Member
                            Sorry. After many years the Bitrate Viewer site seems to have died. A new download link (checked it this time): Bitrate Viewer (afterdawn.com download) .
                            • 11. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                              Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                              Christine,

                              There was a very recent thread on similar. It was posted in the Premiere CS3 forum, if I am not mistaken. There, the user had the exact same problem, though just on one Transition at the end of the Project. I'd put a date for just prior to Thanksgiving (US) on that thread and there were a dozen, or so, replies. Do not recall the final solution.

                              It was so recent, that I'll bet a search (go up to all Premiere forums, as I could be wrong about CS3) on "transition + grainy" should yield this one near the top. I'll try it myself, and see if I can find it for you.

                              Good Luck,

                              Hunt

                              [Edit] Link: http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b70a19/11
                              • 12. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                Soula-55 Community Member
                                I just downloaded Bitrate14.exe from the Internet.... is this the right utility, or is there a better one?

                                In order to facilitate my task changing and re-doing stuff, I have a very short sequence, just 25 seconds.

                                So, I checked it with this bitrate, and since I start with a keyframe, looking in the beginning of the graph, it is between 4 and 5.
                                It is hard though to pinpoint accurately the other dip to black areas, as the graph is not very detailed, I mean it does not give me small time increments, rather 30 sec increments.
                                I cannot see the Q level that you mention

                                One thing I have noticed though, most points are between 3 and 6, the lowest point in the graph is 1 and the highest point is almost at 8

                                Am I on the right track? Thanks again
                                • 13. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                  Soula-55 Community Member
                                  I re-did the DVD, this time exporting directly from Premiere to Encore, selecting high quality, VBR 2 pass, max bitrate 7 Mbps.

                                  Again, the beginning of the grapg, is between 4 and 5 Mbps, lowest point is 1, highest point is 7 Mbps

                                  Still, no change, same problem with dip to black
                                  • 14. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                    Soula-55 Community Member
                                    Ruud, I checked with the new bitrate utility and the Q values are between 4 and 5
                                    I don`t know if this is significant or not.

                                    Bill, thanks a million for your input, I read the thread 3-4 times to make sure I don`t miss anything. If I understand correctly, the problem was not solved with Encore, but the gentleman burnt his disk with Roxio, which solved his problem. Lucky guy!!!

                                    I don`t have Roxio, but I have Nero 7 premium. So, I decided to burn the actual DVD with that software. Unfortunately I was not as lucky, I still have problems with dip to balck

                                    By now, my head is like a soup, such a simple transition, yet so problematic for me, I need some fresh air

                                    Thanks guys, I appreciate your input
                                    • 15. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                      Ruud Blauw Community Member
                                      Christine,

                                      What might be causing the issue is that MPEG-2 IBP compression isn't well suited to encoding fades and blends. Most of the compression has to be achieved by describing differences from frame to frame between blocks of pixels. Normally those changes are relatively small. But in a fade or blend every single pixel changes from one frame to the next. For this the compressor would need a full I-frame for every frame for the duration of the fade/blend.

                                      Because it isn't allowed to do that (it can't do that within the bit rate boundaries) it has to cut corners and compress blocks of pixels to single colors. (Similar to a very heavy JPEG compression of stills.) In a blend between two shots this may be not too noticeable, but in a fade to black the result can be quite ugly.

                                      You could try to make the duration of the fade a bit longer, or a bit shorter. Sometimes that makes a lot of difference.
                                      • 16. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                        Soula-55 Community Member
                                        Ruud,

                                        They say that there is always light at the end of the tunnel !!!!!

                                        This must be the cause, because I changed the duration of all the transitions in a very systematic way, and that gets me a much better result. Is it a coincidence that odd or even number of frames produce different results, or are my eyes playing tricks on me!!!!!

                                        Whichever way you look at it, the duration of these transitions DOES make a difference.

                                        Thank you very much for your help, I appreciate.
                                        • 17. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                          Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                          Christine,

                                          As a test, try Exporting the file from Premiere as a DV-AVI. Then, open Encore and Import that file. This is not using the Export to Encore function, but doing it manually. I'd burn a DVD RW with this file on a Timeline, letting Encore set the Transcode to Automatic. Judge these results on both computer (via Software DVD player) and also on a TV (via set-top player). Does this yield a better Dip-to-Black?

                                          Hunt
                                          • 18. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                            Soula-55 Community Member
                                            Thanks Hunt, I appreciate your input.

                                            Goodness me!!!! Yes, it does make a difference!!!!

                                            Why though, I don`t understand.... I was not using automatic, because the project transcode settings had a max bitrate of 9 Mbps. I was always changing that to 7 Mbps, hence custom

                                            Does that mean that if I select VBR 2pass, or CBR 1 pass I will have problem with dip to black transitions? What about the max bitrate?
                                            • 19. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                              Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                              Christine,

                                              I cannot tell you definitively, but I rather doubt it. Now, in Encore, in the Project Panel, you can set the Transcode setting for each Asset (those that need Transcoding), so you can still do what you want right in Encore.

                                              Now, to date (knocking on my teak table, as I type), I have never had any problems with the Auto setting in Encore. I have to admit that I do not usually have high action footage, or swift pans. Were I faced with those, I would definitely do bitbudgeting on those Clips and not use the Auto.

                                              I'd definitely burn a DVD RW and give it a critical look.

                                              Thanks for reporting back,

                                              Hunt

                                              [Edit] Oops, forgot "why?" I'd say that Ruud hit it squarely in about post #16.
                                              • 20. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                                Soula-55 Community Member
                                                Thanks again Ruud and thanks again Hunt for you help.

                                                It is because of you guys, and other volunteers that give time and effort in these forums that we learn to tackle difficulties.
                                                It is the easy way out to try and blame all kind of things (including software) for our lack of knowledge. I don`t believe in quick and easy solutions or patch-up solutions. Objectivity, perseverance, being systematic and persistence will undoubtedly lead toward true knowledge.
                                                • 21. Re: Dip to Black Video Transitions
                                                  Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                                  Christine,

                                                  First, glad that you seem to be tracking to get your Project done properly. Hope that the track is straight all the way though.

                                                  The main reason that I spend time in these forums, while my workstations are Rendering/Burning, is to learn. If I can pick up just one thing per day, it deem it a success. Then, I only hope to give something back to the community.

                                                  Good luck,

                                                  Hunt