14 Replies Latest reply: May 15, 2009 4:07 PM by Bill Hunt RSS

    Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio

    Community Member
      To my surprise, Encore would not import DV AVI files from Premiere with 5.1 Audio. I much prefer to do my transcoding in Encore rather than in Premiere so I don't have to guess how much disk space will remain after menus and other content. Also, I think Encore transcoding is more efficient than Premiere.

      Yet, cheaper and less sophisticated applications such as Nerovision will import DV AVI files with 5.1 audio, and give you 5.1 DVD's.

      Which leads to another question, why does a cheaper application just give you the Dolby Digital 5.1 Audio, while a fee has to be paid to Surcode to get it in the Adobe applications?
        • 1. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
          Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP
          From the Nero web site:

          "To produce 5.1 channels DVD-Video content, Nero Vision upmixes 2-channel audio input source material into Dolby® Digital 5.1 sound using the advanced Nero Upmix technology."

          The Surcode Dolby plug-in for Premiere Pro allows you take individual audio tracks from the timeline and create a true DD 5.1 mix. And it is a bargain at 300 bucks.

          If you are exporting from PPro without using the Surcode plug-in, then you are most likely exporting 5.1 .wav audio. Encore will not accept 5.1 .wav audio (because it doesn't include a multichannel DD encoder). Encore will accept 5.1 DD audio.
          • 2. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
            Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

            To expand on Jeff's post:
            Premiere Pro is fully capable of creating & exporting a fully discrete surround mix, whereas that "tool" in Nero is an upmix one.

            This will almost certainly be simply passing the sound through a Dolby ProLogic type decoder, and using some form of hacked AC3 encoder to create a DD 5.1 file. It will (probably) sound awful compared to a fully discrete mix. Nero will not produce a truly discrete mix, and I seriously doubt it actually imports 5.1 PCM at all. The website makes no mention of this at all, and the price also says this is not the case.
            $300 for a fully licensed, Dolby Labs approved encoder is sale of the century. A similar encoder can cost up to $1500 and more.

            • 3. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
              Community Member
              Thanks Neil and Jeff for explaining this to me. I'm not as knowledgeble as I could be of the nitty gritty technical aspects, but now have at least an intuitive understanding.

              Yes, that would indeed be 5.1 wav audio I am exporting. So would I be correct in understanding that I absolutely have to do my transcoding in Premiere and be able to calculate in advance my bitrate settings while allowing room for other DVD content? I certainly have every intention of purchasing the surcode. I have no intention of using Nerovision for anything other than home movies, but I did think the 5.1 audio it produced on the DVD review copies of my present project was just fine. I'm anxious now to do a comparison.

              BTW, (for the future) what about DTS audio?
              • 4. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                You cannot create a 5.1 Dolby Digital file in Encore, so the answer is an emphatic "YES" to the planning & budgeting.
                You really should be doing this anyway, as it is a real eye opener. There are some superb Excel spreadsheet bit budgeting tools, as well as a simple enough manual method. It should be detailed in the FAQ.

                As far as DTS goes, you'll need an encoder again. The only plugin version I am aware of is for Steinberg's Nuendo & Cubase systems, but both DTS and SurCode make them.
                The SurCode DTS-DVD encoder is dated now - 5 years or so - and the Nuendo one sounds better. Having said that, the DTS-PSE sounds even better, as well as having DTS-ES and DTS 96/24 capability (both of which are DVD Legal).
                Even better are the soon-to-be-released DTS-HD SAS & MAS encoders.
                These are primarily for the Blue-ish type discs, but also cater for so-called "legacy" encoding as well, and the detail is even better than the DTS-PSE version. You can hear the difference in the detail where the top end sounds more natural & open. Whatever version you get will make Dobly Dirgital sound dull & muddy by comparison.
                Quality can be improved by feeding the encoder with 24 bit audio too - this also applies to Dolby Digital.
                Bitrates for DTS are either 754 kb/sec or 1509 kb/sec, and come in 2 flavours:
                Compact (.cpt) and Padded (.dts) - either can use the lower bitrate, and there is no difference in audio quality between the CPT and DTS flavours. I recommend using the higher bitrate personally.
                Both types are supported in Passthrough mode in Encore - that is to say they import, and multiplex correctly but cannot be previewed.

                Hope this helps.
                • 5. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                  (Jurie_Kruger)
                  I also need help on 5.1 surround.
                  I have Steinberg's Nuendo's both DTS and SurCode encoders.
                  After I exported the mix in Nuendo, how can I import this encoded files in my Video project in Encore 2. Is it possible, and in what format do I need to export?
                  Jurie
                  • 6. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                    Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                    DTS is simply exported as DTS, not DTS-WAV.
                    All you do is import the resulting .cpt or .dts file into Encore, and it will work fine.
                    Bear in mind DTS is passthrough, and cannot be previewed.

                    You need EncoreDVD 2.0 to use DTS.
                    • 7. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                      (Jurie_Kruger) Community Member
                      Thank you for the help. It works perfect.
                      • 8. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                        Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                        Jurie, glad to hear it.
                        The Nuendo DTS encoder really saves some time as it runs from the timeline.
                        FWIW, you can also now get a VST Plugin from SurCode for Dolby ProLogic II - this will matrix your surround mix into Lt/Rt, which can be used directly in Encore as a PCM Stereo file. It will play in Stereo on a stereo setup, but when played through a DPL II (Or a Dolby Digital) decoder, you get the 5.1 back again.
                        I do not know if the Adobe DD Encoder preserves the matrix - I will experiment to find out & post back - but the Nuendo DDE certainly does allow the setting of a D-word for the presence of Dolby Surround indicators.
                        (Dolby Surround became known later on as Dolby Pro Logic, and is LCRS type, with monophonic rears. The DPL II is not a development, but a totally different process.
                        However - the matrix is still preserved when encoding with a Pro grade DD Encoder.)
                        • 9. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                          (Jurie_Kruger) Community Member
                          Hi Neil,
                          I appreciate your help. Im new to Surround, but very excited about the results and possibilities
                          Thanks again for your help. Ill try the VST plugin.
                          Jurie
                          • 10. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                            John T Smith CommunityMVP
                            There is a complete sub-forum for menu questions, such as this one

                            http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?128@@.3bc37f24
                            • 11. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                              I have a question:

                              in what format my 6 channels audiofile must be so that Premiere understands it is 5.1 sound and not a six different audiotracks?

                              I have now 6 channels wave file and if I import that to premiere it adds 6 separate new audiotracks that are all played in every speaker.

                              Is there some way I can encode my original 6ch wave to some other format that premiere accepts and automatically inserts it to 5.1 audio track in timeline / sequencer???

                              And also very grateful if somebody will copy paste the answer to my email jori (@) puuvaja.fi
                              • 12. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                                Community Member
                                Nevermind, problem solved:
                                1. select 6ch wav clip from project window
                                2. CLIP - AUDIO OPTIONS - SOURCE CHANNEL MAPPINGS
                                3 --> 5.1 + arranging which channel is which speaker

                                ...not rendered yet so no idea how it will work in final output but in preview surround works.

                                (free software that helps: "Audacity" to create 6ch wave file. You need to change preferences or options - Audio Files -> Use custom mix (5.1) to be able to save in multichannel format. It shows the multichannel map AFTER pressing Save so don´t panic if you see only normal wave option in saving phase)

                                Jori Mäkinen
                                • 13. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                                  Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP

                                  (free software that helps: "Audacity" to create 6ch wave file. You need to change preferences or options - Audio Files -> Use custom mix (5.1) to be able to save in multichannel format. It shows the multichannel map AFTER pressing Save so don´t panic if you see only normal wave option in saving phase)

                                   

                                  Please be careful here.
                                  If you go over 2Gb, you are going to run into WAV limitations when using 5.1 interleaved files. The only way around this is to use WAV64 or something similar. Separated mono files really are the best way to go forwards.

                                  Which leads to another question, why does a cheaper application just give you the Dolby Digital 5.1 Audio, while a fee has to be paid to Surcode to get it in the Adobe applications?


                                  These applications are basically either
                                  A - using either unlicensed Dolby Digital encoders and a such are unsuitable for DVD work as the resulting Bitstream cannot be verified as DVD compliant, or
                                  B - Using illegally reverse engineered hacks (same problem as above) or
                                  C - Running as Loss Leaders by swallowing the License fee payable to Dolby Labs.

                                  The SurCode encoder in Premiere Pro is sold at cost price as a loss leader by SurCode. The purchase price corresponds exactly to the Dolby Labs licensing fees.

                                  In summary.
                                  Dolby Digital is not free-to-use technology. It is licensed.
                                  Anyone giving it away is doing one of the 3 things above.

                                  • 14. Re: Import DV AVI Files with 5.1 Audio
                                    Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

                                    To follow up on Neil's comments. Not that long ago, I contacted Minnetonka Audio, about acquiring a second SurCode DD 5.1 SS license. I had one copy, plus the DTS encoder. I just wanted to buy another license and use my existing SurCode plug-in.

                                     

                                    Minnetonka practically opened their books for me, when they showed me what they had to pay for the license from Dolby Labs. Neil is correct. If one purchases THROUGH PrPro, they are getting the plug-in for barely over the licensing fees. I bought a second copy at the PrPro price.

                                     

                                    Now, as a further extension of good will to Adobe PrPro users, they dropped the price for a second copy by even more. It was not a big difference, but did catch my attention. Unfortunately for me, I'd already bought my second copy and had been using it steadily for about 3 mos. This "special" was ONLY for an additional copy, but a nice gesture. Maybe my call prompted them to contemplate this little change. Now, it was REALLY a "loss leader," though you had to already own one copy, whether purchase through PrPro, or from Minnetonka directly.

                                     

                                    At the price, it's still a wonderful deal and I highly recommend it.

                                     

                                    Hunt