1 2 Previous Next 53 Replies Latest reply on Sep 15, 2008 4:23 AM by Newsgroup_User

    Web Page Layout Resolution

    pbsum83 Level 1
      Hello,

      I made the mistake of designing a site layout for my own resolution (1280 X 1024) and I am finding out many of my visitors have a resolution of 1024 x 768. This obviously makes everything appear much larger to them, w/ scroll bars, etc., which I do not want.

      What is the best way to shrink my layout to suit their smaller resolution (1024 x 765)? Are there any tricks or hints anybody can suggest?

      Thanks,
      Paul
        • 1. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
          Level 7

          Resolution is not the critical issue. Browser viewport width is. To make 
          your decision you need to have some ideas about the following issues -

          1. What is the primary target demographic for this site?
          2. What are the browsing habits of that demographic? Do they normally have 
          their browser window maximized on the screen?
          3. If they usually have their browser maximized, what is the typical screen 
          width?
          4. If they usually do NOT have their browser maximized, what is the MINIMUM 
          screen width in that demographic.
          5. How do I want to build the page?
          a. Fixed width and left aligned?
          b. Fixed width and centering?
          c. Flexible to fill whatever width from left to right?
          d. Flexible (within limits) and left aligned?
          e. Flexible (within limits) and centering?

          As you can see, this decision is probably much more complex than you 
          thought, and will require that you know quite a bit about your intended 
          target visitor and their browsing habits.

          If you elect to go with 5a, or 5b, then your decision would be - 'what is 
          the mimimum browser width I want to support without horizontal scrolling?'. 
          Once you have determined that minimum supported width, all of your decisions 
          are made. That's how wide you want your page to be.

          If you elect to go with 5c, then you just build your page within a flexible 
          container (the simplest example - although an obsolet one - would be to use 
          a 100% width table to hold the entire page). Be aware that pages with 
          limited text content can look VERY sparse and empty on wide viewports when 
          built in this way.

          If you elect to go with 5d, or 5e, then you would add this sophistication to 
          your decision matrix -

          'what is the greatest width I want to allow the page and its contents to 
          become?'

          In this case, you would use the CSS styles - 'min-width' and 'max-width' on 
          the primary page container. Just so you'll know, although these styles are 
          well supported *now*, earlier versions of IE (and some other browsers) will 
          not support them so reliably.

          So - which is it? 8)

          -- 
          Murray --- ICQ 71997575
          Adobe Community Expert
          (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
          ==================
          http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
          http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
          ==================


          "paul" <E-mail Hidden> wrote in message 
          news:gac1fe$jnt$1@forums.macromedia.com...
          > Hello,
          >
          > I made the mistake of designing a site layout for my own resolution (1280 
          > X
          > 1024) and I am finding out many of my visitors have a resolution of 1024 x 
          > 765.
          > This obviously makes everything appear much larger w/ scroll bars, etc., 
          > which
          > I do not want.
          >
          > What is the best way to go about shrinking my layout to suit a smaller
          > resolution (1024 x 765)? Are there any tricks or hints anybody can 
          > suggest?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Paul


           

          Message was edited by: Sudarshan Thiagarajan

          • 2. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
            Ben M Adobe Community Professional
            If there are areas that expand (ie: a blog which grows down), then just don't make it grow as far.

            If it is a width issue, this is definitely something that needs to be worked out in Photoshop or Fireworks because you don't just want to make it smaller if it condenses too much because then you run into issues with items becoming too condensed to be recognized.
            • 3. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
              Level 7
              > What is the best way to go about shrinking my layout to suit a smaller
              > resolution (1024 x 765)?

              You really need to redesign the site to accommodate it.

              Remember that resolution of the screen isn't necessarily the main issue,
              it's the resolution of the web browser...which can be almost anything.

              Also, don't forget that for every big monitor out there (30" cinema display)
              there's also likely a small one too (iPhone)

              -Darrel

              • 4. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                Level 7

                There is no way to cater to every possible situation out there, but 960px 
                (wide) is a safe compromise for run-of-the-mill sites these days.

                L. Babarabatibiri


                [name removed by host] <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message 
                news:gac1fe$jnt$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                > Hello,
                >
                > I made the mistake of designing a site layout for my own resolution (1280 
                > X
                > 1024) and I am finding out many of my visitors have a resolution of 1024 x 
                > 765.
                > This obviously makes everything appear much larger w/ scroll bars, etc., 
                > which
                > I do not want.
                >
                > What is the best way to go about shrinking my layout to suit a smaller
                > resolution (1024 x 765)? Are there any tricks or hints anybody can 
                > suggest?
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Paul


                • 5. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                  Level 7

                  Depends on your target demographic, of course.

                  -- 
                  Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                  Adobe Community Expert
                  (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                  ==================
                  http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                  http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                  ==================


                  "babarabatibiri" [email address removed by host] wrote in message 
                  news:gadjiv$csk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                  > There is no way to cater to every possible situation out there, but 960px 
                  > (wide) is a safe compromise for run-of-the-mill sites these days.
                  >
                  > L. Babarabatibiri
                  >
                  >
                  > [name removed by host] <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message 
                  > news:gac1fe$jnt$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                  >> Hello,
                  >>
                  >> I made the mistake of designing a site layout for my own resolution (1280 
                  >> X
                  >> 1024) and I am finding out many of my visitors have a resolution of 1024 
                  >> x 765.
                  >> This obviously makes everything appear much larger w/ scroll bars, etc., 
                  >> which
                  >> I do not want.
                  >>
                  >> What is the best way to go about shrinking my layout to suit a smaller
                  >> resolution (1024 x 765)? Are there any tricks or hints anybody can 
                  >> suggest?
                  >>
                  >> Thanks,
                  >> Paul
                  >>


                  • 6. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                    Level 7
                    .oO(babarabatibiri)

                    >There is no way to cater to every possible situation out there

                    But you can come close.

                    >but 960px
                    >(wide) is a safe compromise for run-of-the-mill sites these days.

                    A flexible layout works better.
                    Always.

                    Micha
                    • 7. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                      Level 7

                      "Murray *ACE*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
                      news:gadk1l$d8g$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                      > Depends on your target demographic, of course.
                      >

                      It also depends on whether you actually have any of that target demographic
                      data, the amount and type of content your site will have, the type of layout
                      a designer has in mind, the site's business goals, etc., etc.

                      • 8. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                        Level 7
                        >
                        > A flexible layout works better.
                        > Always.
                        >
                        > Micha

                        What's a "flexible layout" and why does it "always" work better? Do major
                        sites follow this "rule" in general?


                        Thanks, Micha!

                        • 9. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                          Level 7
                          .oO(babarabatibiri)

                          >> A flexible layout works better.
                          >> Always.
                          >>
                          >> Micha
                          >
                          >What's a "flexible layout"

                          A layout that follows the nature of the Web and which is not restricted
                          to a fixed dimension.

                          >and why does it "always" work better?

                          A fixed width of 960px for example only works for people with a browser
                          window of at least 1000px. A more flexible layout will always work for
                          much more users with various browser widths => better.

                          >Do major
                          >sites follow this "rule" in general?

                          Most do not, which is why they don't work here. I get a horizontal
                          scrollbar often enough, which could be easily prevented with a layout
                          done by a more competent designer.

                          Micha
                          • 10. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                            Level 7


                            "Michael Fesser" [email address removed by host] wrote in message 
                            news:qlpkc45248d80k4hiiojuumgjtlvv4j83i@4ax.com...
                            > .oO(babarabatibiri)
                            >
                            >>Do major
                            >>sites follow this "rule" in general?
                            >
                            > Most do not, which is why they don't work here. I get a horizontal
                            > scrollbar often enough, which could be easily prevented with a layout
                            > done by a more competent designer.
                            >
                            > Micha


                            Given that an overwhelming majority of major, famous, often-visited 
                            commercial sites have fixed-width layouts, is it possible to conclude that 
                            their designers may know more than you think they do?

                            CNN, ESPN, ABC, Microsoft, Dell, Zeldman, Project VII, BBC, A List Apart, 
                            Zen Garden, Adobe, DPreview, even Murray's site, etc, etc. They all have 
                            "incompetent" designers? I seriously doubt it. I think you need to honestly 
                            ask yourself if they have a very good reason for not sharing your vision.


                            L. Babarabatibiri 

                            • 11. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                              Level 7

                              .oO(babarabatibiri)

                              >"Michael Fesser" <email address removed by host> wrote in message 
                              >news:qlpkc45248d80k4hiiojuumgjtlvv4j83i@4ax.com...
                              >> .oO(babarabatibiri)
                              >>
                              >>>Do major
                              >>>sites follow this "rule" in general?
                              >>
                              >> Most do not, which is why they don't work here. I get a horizontal
                              >> scrollbar often enough, which could be easily prevented with a layout
                              >> done by a more competent designer.
                              >>
                              >> Micha
                              >
                              >
                              >Given that an overwhelming majority of major, famous, often-visited 
                              >commercial sites have fixed-width layouts, is it possible to conclude that 
                              >their designers may know more than you think they do?

                              No.

                              A good site makes use of the features that the Web has to offer instead
                              of suppressing them. Many designer just treat a website as if it was a
                              sheet of paper, which often enough leads to usability problems.

                              >CNN, ESPN, ABC, Microsoft, Dell, Zeldman, Project VII, BBC, A List Apart, 
                              >Zen Garden, Adobe, DPreview, even Murray's site, etc, etc. They all have 
                              >"incompetent" designers? I seriously doubt it. I think you need to honestly 
                              >ask yourself if they have a very good reason for not sharing your vision.

                              A fixed layout is _always_ a limitation, making it difficult for many
                              users to access the site.

                              With just a little more effort the above examples could _all_ be done in
                              a better and more userfriendly way to reach more users (even though most
                              of the biggest sites have a lot of other problems as well). Most sites
                              are targetted at desktop machines with big screens, but the Web is for
                              everyone. Obviously many designers don't care or don't have noticed yet
                              the increasing number of smaller devices for example. I don't talk about
                              PDAs and mobiles, which might require some special work, but about the
                              popular netbooks and the like, which are sold like hot cakes these days.

                              The Web is more and more becoming an all-day tool, which can be accessed
                              almost always and almost everywhere. Flexibility matters if you care
                              about your visitors.

                              YMMV.

                              Micha

                              • 12. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                Level 7

                                I think you still have a lot to learn, Micha.

                                At present, you can't really understand the reasons professional designers 
                                have for making decisions that appear wrong to you. What you call "flexible 
                                layouts" can be good in some cases, but fixed-width layouts enjoy their 
                                popularity because professional designers understand and maximize the 
                                medium's strenghts and limitations.

                                In the absence of any other evidence, I must go with the regular industry 
                                practices. They may or may not change tomorrow. But for today, fixed-width 
                                layouts are the mainstream, accepted way to go in the overwhelming majority 
                                of cases, as exemplified by professional designers all over the world.


                                L. Babarabatibiri






                                "Michael Fesser" <email address removed by host> wrote in message 
                                news:51rkc4dma4sf7snanoduddpvd0ef0l6uv4@4ax.com...
                                > .oO(babarabatibiri)
                                >
                                >>"Michael Fesser" <email address removed by host> wrote in message
                                >>news:qlpkc45248d80k4hiiojuumgjtlvv4j83i@4ax.com...
                                >>> .oO(babarabatibiri)
                                >>>
                                >>>>Do major
                                >>>>sites follow this "rule" in general?
                                >>>
                                >>> Most do not, which is why they don't work here. I get a horizontal
                                >>> scrollbar often enough, which could be easily prevented with a layout
                                >>> done by a more competent designer.
                                >>>
                                >>> Micha
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>Given that an overwhelming majority of major, famous, often-visited
                                >>commercial sites have fixed-width layouts, is it possible to conclude that
                                >>their designers may know more than you think they do?
                                >
                                > No.
                                >
                                > A good site makes use of the features that the Web has to offer instead
                                > of suppressing them. Many designer just treat a website as if it was a
                                > sheet of paper, which often enough leads to usability problems.
                                >
                                >>CNN, ESPN, ABC, Microsoft, Dell, Zeldman, Project VII, BBC, A List Apart,
                                >>Zen Garden, Adobe, DPreview, even Murray's site, etc, etc. They all have
                                >>"incompetent" designers? I seriously doubt it. I think you need to 
                                >>honestly
                                >>ask yourself if they have a very good reason for not sharing your vision.
                                >
                                > A fixed layout is _always_ a limitation, making it difficult for many
                                > users to access the site.
                                >
                                > With just a little more effort the above examples could _all_ be done in
                                > a better and more userfriendly way to reach more users (even though most
                                > of the biggest sites have a lot of other problems as well). Most sites
                                > are targetted at desktop machines with big screens, but the Web is for
                                > everyone. Obviously many designers don't care or don't have noticed yet
                                > the increasing number of smaller devices for example. I don't talk about
                                > PDAs and mobiles, which might require some special work, but about the
                                > popular netbooks and the like, which are sold like hot cakes these days.
                                >
                                > The Web is more and more becoming an all-day tool, which can be accessed
                                > almost always and almost everywhere. Flexibility matters if you care
                                > about your visitors.
                                >
                                > YMMV.
                                >
                                > Micha 

                                • 13. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                  JoeDaSilva Level 4
                                  I've been arguing the exact same point to Fesser for months. Good luck, you have no hope of convincing him though ;-)
                                  • 14. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                    Level 7
                                    .oO(babarabatibiri)

                                    >I think you still have a lot to learn, Micha.
                                    >
                                    >At present, you can't really understand the reasons professional designers
                                    >have for making decisions that appear wrong to you. What you call "flexible
                                    >layouts" can be good in some cases

                                    Show me _one_ case where a more flexible layout would cause problems.
                                    Just one.

                                    >but fixed-width layouts enjoy their
                                    >popularity because professional designers understand and maximize the
                                    >medium's strenghts and limitations.

                                    Almost everything that can be done in a fixed way can also be done in
                                    a more flexible way. You just have to know how and be willing to learn
                                    some more than just "HTML for dummies". Of course if management dictates
                                    the rules, then you can't expect any quality.

                                    And just in case it wasn't clear from my previous replies: The Web is
                                    flexible by its nature! It's always the designers who _intentionally_
                                    create limitations and obstacles for the users. Most of the designers
                                    definitely have _not_ understood the strengths of the medium they're
                                    working with, because they ignore or even suppress them. This can also
                                    easily be proven by just having a look at the source code of most big
                                    sites - terrible. Meaningful and efficient markup? No way. But as long
                                    as it looks good on the designer's PC it's OK. Very professional indeed.

                                    >In the absence of any other evidence, I must go with the regular industry
                                    >practices. They may or may not change tomorrow. But for today, fixed-width
                                    >layouts are the mainstream, accepted way to go in the overwhelming majority
                                    >of cases, as exemplified by professional designers all over the world.

                                    Most people just live with the poor quality they're given and don't even
                                    ask if they could get something better (see IE for example).

                                    For most of your "professional designers" all that matters is the look,
                                    not the usability. According to the most fundamental rule of design,
                                    form follows function, they are no designers, but just decorators. And
                                    the Web is full of such decorations.

                                    Micha
                                    • 15. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                      Level 7

                                      Sorry, Micha. You seem to have a very personal issue with design and 
                                      designers in general.

                                      I'll respect your feelings and end the conversation now. Thanks for the 
                                      exchange.


                                      L. Babarabaibiri



                                      "Michael Fesser" <email addresss removed by host> wrote in message 
                                      news:2vtkc45596ilpepf6hjv1kdj42fhnde791@4ax.com...
                                      > .oO(babarabatibiri)
                                      >
                                      >>I think you still have a lot to learn, Micha.
                                      >>
                                      >>At present, you can't really understand the reasons professional designers
                                      >>have for making decisions that appear wrong to you. What you call 
                                      >>"flexible
                                      >>layouts" can be good in some cases
                                      >
                                      > Show me _one_ case where a more flexible layout would cause problems.
                                      > Just one.
                                      >
                                      >>but fixed-width layouts enjoy their
                                      >>popularity because professional designers understand and maximize the
                                      >>medium's strenghts and limitations.
                                      >
                                      > Almost everything that can be done in a fixed way can also be done in
                                      > a more flexible way. You just have to know how and be willing to learn
                                      > some more than just "HTML for dummies". Of course if management dictates
                                      > the rules, then you can't expect any quality.
                                      >
                                      > And just in case it wasn't clear from my previous replies: The Web is
                                      > flexible by its nature! It's always the designers who _intentionally_
                                      > create limitations and obstacles for the users. Most of the designers
                                      > definitely have _not_ understood the strengths of the medium they're
                                      > working with, because they ignore or even suppress them. This can also
                                      > easily be proven by just having a look at the source code of most big
                                      > sites - terrible. Meaningful and efficient markup? No way. But as long
                                      > as it looks good on the designer's PC it's OK. Very professional indeed.
                                      >
                                      >>In the absence of any other evidence, I must go with the regular industry
                                      >>practices. They may or may not change tomorrow. But for today, fixed-width
                                      >>layouts are the mainstream, accepted way to go in the overwhelming 
                                      >>majority
                                      >>of cases, as exemplified by professional designers all over the world.
                                      >
                                      > Most people just live with the poor quality they're given and don't even
                                      > ask if they could get something better (see IE for example).
                                      >
                                      > For most of your "professional designers" all that matters is the look,
                                      > not the usability. According to the most fundamental rule of design,
                                      > form follows function, they are no designers, but just decorators. And
                                      > the Web is full of such decorations.
                                      >
                                      > Micha 

                                      • 16. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                        Level 7
                                        "JoeyD1978" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                        news:gadtrb$npk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                        > I've been arguing the exact same point to Fesser for months. Good luck,
                                        > you have no hope of convincing him though ;-)


                                        You're absolutely right, Joey.


                                        The only reason I went out of my way to "reason" with Micha is to help and
                                        protect beginners; it's very important for them to realize that Micha's
                                        narrow views are not, in any way, shared by web professionals. Given the
                                        frequency and tone of Micha's posts, beginners run the risk of drawing the
                                        wrong conclusions.


                                        :-)


                                        L. Babarabatibiri

                                        • 17. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                          Level 7
                                          .oO(babarabatibiri)

                                          >Sorry, Micha. You seem to have a very personal issue with design and
                                          >designers in general.

                                          I only have an issue with bad designers and designs that are
                                          inappropriate for the target medium. I simply don't like user-
                                          unfriendly sites and I've given enough reasons why. That easy.

                                          Micha
                                          • 18. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                            Level 7
                                            JoeyD1978 wrote:
                                            > I've been arguing the exact same point to Fesser for months. Good luck, you have no hope of convincing him though ;-)

                                            I think if you guys had any insight into the politics and heirarchical
                                            constraints that exist in big business, you wouldn't be surprised that
                                            the resulting website usually do not demonstrate current "best
                                            practices." It's just the nature of the beast.

                                            I have observed as a simple consumer who happens to understand why some
                                            things don't work due to my "hobby/business" that many, many, big-name
                                            sites do *not* work as intended simply because whoever is responsible
                                            for the design (which often is not the designer but some
                                            bottom-line-oriented suit) does not understand the various ways the site
                                            could be used by the end viewer. This *starts* with something simple
                                            such as not understanding some viewers browse with enlarged text or
                                            limitations on relying on Flash and extends to all sorts of other
                                            disfunctions that result from not enough usability testing.

                                            I'm probably one of the few people here old enough to remember "Up the
                                            Organization" by Peter Townsend. He has a hysterical scenario about
                                            hiring someone (highly qualified) to come up with an ad and then
                                            watching a bunch of suits make "suggestions" for "improvements."

                                            Watching my own day job redo its website has been eye-opening, too.
                                            They are dealing with every problem a big for-profit corporation would:
                                            legacy shopping cart dictating some design limitations, uncertainty
                                            about moving to a more up-to-date server, political stuff (marketing
                                            dept. making design decisions), etc. A one-man web design shop has
                                            things simple by comparison.

                                            --
                                            Bonnie
                                            • 19. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                              Level 7
                                              .oO(babarabatibiri)

                                              >"JoeyD1978" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                              >news:gadtrb$npk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                              >> I've been arguing the exact same point to Fesser for months. Good luck,
                                              >> you have no hope of convincing him though ;-)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >You're absolutely right, Joey.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >The only reason I went out of my way to "reason" with Micha is to help and
                                              >protect beginners; it's very important for them to realize that Micha's
                                              >narrow views are not, in any way, shared by web professionals.

                                              You want to educate them to become the next generation of "nephews" or
                                              "snowboarders" (a common term in Germany for designers who haven't any
                                              clue about the Web).

                                              Beginners should learn how to do it right and should focus on content,
                                              usability and accessibility.

                                              >Given the
                                              >frequency and tone of Micha's posts, beginners run the risk of drawing the
                                              >wrong conclusions.

                                              I have given enough valid arguments to support my opinions. You didn't,
                                              except for "that's professional".

                                              Micha
                                              • 20. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                Level 7
                                                Bonnie is RIGHT ON TARGET. I really agree. And I believe that Micha is
                                                free to express his opinion like anyone else here. My personal opinion and
                                                preference is to use fixed width and centering pages. But that's also just
                                                my opinion.

                                                --
                                                Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                                Adobe Community Expert
                                                (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                                                ==================
                                                http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                                http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                                ==================


                                                "Bonnie" <kroko@pixel[occam]plum.com> wrote in message
                                                news:gae1bh$rjg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                > JoeyD1978 wrote:
                                                >> I've been arguing the exact same point to Fesser for months. Good luck,
                                                >> you have no hope of convincing him though ;-)
                                                >
                                                > I think if you guys had any insight into the politics and heirarchical
                                                > constraints that exist in big business, you wouldn't be surprised that the
                                                > resulting website usually do not demonstrate current "best practices."
                                                > It's just the nature of the beast.
                                                >
                                                > I have observed as a simple consumer who happens to understand why some
                                                > things don't work due to my "hobby/business" that many, many, big-name
                                                > sites do *not* work as intended simply because whoever is responsible for
                                                > the design (which often is not the designer but some bottom-line-oriented
                                                > suit) does not understand the various ways the site could be used by the
                                                > end viewer. This *starts* with something simple such as not understanding
                                                > some viewers browse with enlarged text or limitations on relying on Flash
                                                > and extends to all sorts of other disfunctions that result from not enough
                                                > usability testing.
                                                >
                                                > I'm probably one of the few people here old enough to remember "Up the
                                                > Organization" by Peter Townsend. He has a hysterical scenario about
                                                > hiring someone (highly qualified) to come up with an ad and then watching
                                                > a bunch of suits make "suggestions" for "improvements."
                                                >
                                                > Watching my own day job redo its website has been eye-opening, too. They
                                                > are dealing with every problem a big for-profit corporation would: legacy
                                                > shopping cart dictating some design limitations, uncertainty about moving
                                                > to a more up-to-date server, political stuff (marketing dept. making
                                                > design decisions), etc. A one-man web design shop has things simple by
                                                > comparison.
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > Bonnie

                                                • 21. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                  Level 7
                                                  > What's a "flexible layout" and why does it "always" work better? Do major
                                                  > sites follow this "rule" in general?

                                                  'Major sites' is a bit of a red herring. What the big guys do isn't usually
                                                  the best to emulate.

                                                  That said, your 960px number is really as good as any. Like you say, it's
                                                  very rare that one has a definable demographic that, in turn, has a
                                                  definable web browser screen resolution.

                                                  So, that's where the flexible/fluid options come in to play, as they can
                                                  accommodate a wider range of sizes.

                                                  -Darrel

                                                  • 22. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                    JoeDaSilva Level 4
                                                    Micha, why do you insist on equating fluid width with "accessibility"? As for your example, you posted a site you did for a lawyer friend if I recall correctly. On my 1440x900 laptop it looked pretty rough with my browser maximized. How is that more "usable" than a fixed width site when I get a headache from reading lines of text that are 1200 pixels long?

                                                    Do think Apples designers are hacks too? Last time I checked their site was a wide format fixed width layout. Did a "suit" make that decision?
                                                    • 23. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                      Level 7
                                                      > Given that an overwhelming majority of major, famous, often-visited
                                                      > commercial sites have fixed-width layouts, is it possible to conclude that
                                                      > their designers may know more than you think they do?

                                                      No, that's not a viable conclusion.

                                                      Often the bigger the site, the less it's designed by a designer or even
                                                      design team. There's usually multiple stakeholders and, well, here come the
                                                      committees.

                                                      > They all have "incompetent" designers?

                                                      That's a silly and erroneous conclusion to jump to.

                                                      Fixed width isn't 'bad' either. In the end, there are usually more important
                                                      factors to dwell upon.

                                                      Ultimately, the best data to go off of is the actual content of the site.
                                                      That's known, can be measured, and is probably the best indicator of how,
                                                      exactly, to lay out your site.

                                                      -Darrel

                                                      • 24. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                        Level 7
                                                        > it's very important for them to realize that Micha's narrow views are
                                                        > not, in any way, shared by web professionals.

                                                        Your statement is as wrong as you think Micha's statement is.

                                                        There is no absolute rule here. It's not a black/white argument. There's a
                                                        whole lot of grey in it. That's the key for the beginner to understand.

                                                        -Darrel



                                                        • 25. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                          Level 7
                                                          > very rare that one has a definable demographic that, in turn, has a
                                                          > definable web browser screen resolution.

                                                          (psst - it's not a screen resolution issue)


                                                          --
                                                          Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                                          Adobe Community Expert
                                                          (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                                                          "darrel" <notreal@notreal.com> wrote in message
                                                          news:gae2pd$t89$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                          >> What's a "flexible layout" and why does it "always" work better? Do major
                                                          >> sites follow this "rule" in general?
                                                          >
                                                          > 'Major sites' is a bit of a red herring. What the big guys do isn't
                                                          > usually the best to emulate.
                                                          >
                                                          > That said, your 960px number is really as good as any. Like you say, it's
                                                          > very rare that one has a definable demographic that, in turn, has a
                                                          > definable web browser screen resolution.
                                                          >
                                                          > So, that's where the flexible/fluid options come in to play, as they can
                                                          > accommodate a wider range of sizes.
                                                          >
                                                          > -Darrel

                                                          • 26. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                            Level 7
                                                            > Bonnie is RIGHT ON TARGET.

                                                            Hear hear! (And, sigh, sigh, as I've been there too...committees are a
                                                            nature of the beast...the bigger the beast, the more voices get a say on
                                                            that damned committee ;o)

                                                            -Darrel

                                                            • 27. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                              Level 7
                                                              > (psst - it's not a screen resolution issue)

                                                              "web browser screen resolution"

                                                              I think I just made up that non-existent term. oops. ;o)

                                                              -Darrel
                                                              • 28. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                Level 7
                                                                > correctly. On my 1440x900 laptop it looked pretty rough with my browser
                                                                > maximized. How is that more "usable" than a fixed width site when I get a
                                                                > headache from reading lines of text that are 1200 pixels long?

                                                                It's arguably more accessible because you now have a choice. You, the USER,
                                                                can make that call as to how wide the page should be for YOUR preferences.

                                                                > Do think Apples designers are hacks too? Last time I checked their site
                                                                > was a
                                                                > wide format fixed width layout. Did a "suit" make that decision?

                                                                No. A black mock turtleneck did.

                                                                -Darrel

                                                                • 29. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                  Level 7

                                                                  "JoeyD1978" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                                                  news:gae2ti$26$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                                  > Micha, why do you insist on equating fluid width with "accessibility"? As
                                                                  > for
                                                                  > your example, you posted a site you did for a lawyer friend if I recall
                                                                  > correctly. On my 1440x900 laptop it looked pretty rough with my browser
                                                                  > maximized. How is that more "usable" than a fixed width site when I get a
                                                                  > headache from reading lines of text that are 1200 pixels long?
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Do think Apples designers are hacks too? Last time I checked their site
                                                                  > was a
                                                                  > wide format fixed width layout. Did a "suit" make that decision?
                                                                  >

                                                                  Not just Apple. Even "web-centric" guys like Zeldman (zeldma.com,
                                                                  alistapart, etc) & Al Sparber go for fixed width. They know far more about
                                                                  ANY web issue - including usability, accesibility and all sorts of
                                                                  "ilities" - than Micha will learn in 7 lives. Whose judgement should anyone
                                                                  trust? Micha's, who just has his opinion or real experts doing real sites
                                                                  that anyone can visit and examine?

                                                                  I'd go for the experts.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                    Level 7

                                                                    I got news for you. Micha is an expert in my book. I don't always agree 
                                                                    with him, but I always have to concede his point.

                                                                    -- 
                                                                    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                                                    Adobe Community Expert
                                                                    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                                                                    "babarabatibiri" <email address removed by host> wrote in message 
                                                                    news:gae3fu$ni$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                                    >
                                                                    > "JoeyD1978" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message 
                                                                    > news:gae2ti$26$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                                    >> Micha, why do you insist on equating fluid width with "accessibility"? As 
                                                                    >> for
                                                                    >> your example, you posted a site you did for a lawyer friend if I recall
                                                                    >> correctly. On my 1440x900 laptop it looked pretty rough with my browser
                                                                    >> maximized. How is that more "usable" than a fixed width site when I get a
                                                                    >> headache from reading lines of text that are 1200 pixels long?
                                                                    >>
                                                                    >> Do think Apples designers are hacks too? Last time I checked their site 
                                                                    >> was a
                                                                    >> wide format fixed width layout. Did a "suit" make that decision?
                                                                    >>
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Not just Apple. Even "web-centric" guys like Zeldman (zeldma.com, 
                                                                    > alistapart, etc) & Al Sparber go for fixed width. They know far more about 
                                                                    > ANY web issue - including usability, accesibility and all sorts of 
                                                                    > "ilities" - than Micha will learn in 7 lives. Whose judgement should 
                                                                    > anyone trust? Micha's, who just has his opinion or real experts doing real 
                                                                    > sites that anyone can visit and examine?
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'd go for the experts. 

                                                                    • 31. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                      Level 7
                                                                      > Not just Apple. Even "web-centric" guys like Zeldman (zeldma.com,
                                                                      > alistapart, etc) & Al Sparber go for fixed width. They know far more about
                                                                      > ANY web issue - including usability, accesibility and all sorts of
                                                                      > "ilities" - than Micha will learn in 7 lives.

                                                                      When you say stuff like that, you've lost the argument.

                                                                      -Darrel


                                                                      • 32. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                        Level 7

                                                                        "Murray *ACE*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
                                                                        news:gae3j9$p6$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                                        >I got news for you. Micha is an expert in my book. I don't always agree
                                                                        >with him, but I always have to concede his point.
                                                                        >

                                                                        that's quite understandable...

                                                                        ;-)


                                                                        L. Babarabatibiri

                                                                        • 33. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                          Level 7
                                                                          babarabatibiri posted in macromedia.dreamweaver:

                                                                          > Not just Apple. Even "web-centric" guys like Zeldman (zeldma.com,
                                                                          > alistapart, etc) & Al Sparber go for fixed width. They know far
                                                                          > more about ANY web issue - including usability, accesibility and
                                                                          > all sorts of "ilities" - than Micha will learn in 7 lives. Whose
                                                                          > judgement should anyone trust? Micha's, who just has his opinion
                                                                          > or real experts doing real sites that anyone can visit and
                                                                          > examine?
                                                                          >
                                                                          > I'd go for the experts.

                                                                          What makes you think experts have to agree on everything? What makes
                                                                          you think the above names don't base their sites on their opinions?

                                                                          Even scientists don't agree on everything and they're supposedly using
                                                                          the scientific method to come to their conclusions.



                                                                          --
                                                                          Mark A. Boyd
                                                                          Keep-On-Learnin' :)
                                                                          • 34. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                            Level 7
                                                                            I think experts and scientists agree, though, on the big things. Like how
                                                                            many animated GIF images one can use on a page. Or how to best display
                                                                            "Site best viewed in Internet Explorer" on your page....

                                                                            --
                                                                            Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                                                            Adobe Community Expert
                                                                            (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                                                                            ==================
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                                                                            "Mark A. Boyd" <lingoboyd@mboydDotcom.invalid> wrote in message
                                                                            news:Xns9B175E02BEB7mblistssanDotrrcom@216.104.212.96...
                                                                            > babarabatibiri posted in macromedia.dreamweaver:
                                                                            >
                                                                            >> Not just Apple. Even "web-centric" guys like Zeldman (zeldma.com,
                                                                            >> alistapart, etc) & Al Sparber go for fixed width. They know far
                                                                            >> more about ANY web issue - including usability, accesibility and
                                                                            >> all sorts of "ilities" - than Micha will learn in 7 lives. Whose
                                                                            >> judgement should anyone trust? Micha's, who just has his opinion
                                                                            >> or real experts doing real sites that anyone can visit and
                                                                            >> examine?
                                                                            >>
                                                                            >> I'd go for the experts.
                                                                            >
                                                                            > What makes you think experts have to agree on everything? What makes
                                                                            > you think the above names don't base their sites on their opinions?
                                                                            >
                                                                            > Even scientists don't agree on everything and they're supposedly using
                                                                            > the scientific method to come to their conclusions.
                                                                            >
                                                                            >
                                                                            >
                                                                            > --
                                                                            > Mark A. Boyd
                                                                            > Keep-On-Learnin' :)

                                                                            • 35. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                              Level 7

                                                                              "Mark A. Boyd" <lingoboyd@mboydDotcom.invalid> wrote in message
                                                                              news:Xns9B175E02BEB7mblistssanDotrrcom@216.104.212.96...
                                                                              > babarabatibiri posted in macromedia.dreamweaver:
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > What makes you think experts have to agree on everything?


                                                                              I never said that experts have to agree on everything, Mark.


                                                                              >What makes
                                                                              > you think the above names don't base their sites on their opinions?
                                                                              >

                                                                              Of course, they base their decisions on their opinion which is formed based
                                                                              on their knowledge and experience. That's where their expertise comes from.

                                                                              So, it's pure common sense that the opinions of experts must be trusted more
                                                                              than the opinion of non-experts. Zeldman and Sparber (to name a few) have a
                                                                              body of work that anyone can examine. Micha's work is nowhere to be found.
                                                                              Perhaps he can show us where and when he has put his theories into practice.
                                                                              I'm willing to concede his point that "flexible layouts are always better"
                                                                              when he produces the evidence.



                                                                              • 36. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                                Level 7
                                                                                > I think experts and scientists agree, though, on the big things. Like how
                                                                                > many animated GIF images one can use on a page.

                                                                                I heard they just built a giant animated GIF accelerator in Europe
                                                                                somewhere.

                                                                                Some fear that this could potentially lead to the global blue screen of
                                                                                death.

                                                                                -Darrel

                                                                                • 37. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                                  Level 7
                                                                                  > So, it's pure common sense that the opinions of experts must be trusted
                                                                                  > more than the opinion of non-experts.

                                                                                  Karl Rove and Michael Moore are both political policy experts. Which one is
                                                                                  right?

                                                                                  -Darrel



                                                                                  • 38. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                                    Level 7
                                                                                    babarabatibiri posted in macromedia.dreamweaver:
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > "Mark A. Boyd" <lingoboyd@mboydDotcom.invalid> wrote in message
                                                                                    > news:Xns9B175E02BEB7mblistssanDotrrcom@216.104.212.96...
                                                                                    >> babarabatibiri posted in macromedia.dreamweaver:
                                                                                    >>
                                                                                    >> What makes you think experts have to agree on everything?
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > I never said that experts have to agree on everything, Mark.

                                                                                    Perhaps you've simply chosen to agree with the experts who use fixed
                                                                                    width, then. That doesn't make proponents of flexible sites any less
                                                                                    expert.

                                                                                    > So, it's pure common sense that the opinions of experts must be
                                                                                    > trusted more than the opinion of non-experts. Zeldman and Sparber
                                                                                    > (to name a few) have a body of work that anyone can examine.
                                                                                    > Micha's work is nowhere to be found. Perhaps he can show us where
                                                                                    > and when he has put his theories into practice.

                                                                                    Perhaps not as published (to newsgroups) sites or books, but I've seen
                                                                                    enough of his posts in several newsgroups (not just macromedia.*) that
                                                                                    I am convinced of his expertise. His knowledge certainly surpasses mine
                                                                                    in several areas in which I don't consider myself a novice, anyway.

                                                                                    > I'm willing to
                                                                                    > concede his point that "flexible layouts are always better" when
                                                                                    > he produces the evidence.

                                                                                    I wonder. We may never get the opportunity, though. That he doesn't
                                                                                    publish his sites here or author books, does not make him a non-expert.

                                                                                    I admit that "always" and "never" are rarely (never?) the best words to
                                                                                    use when talking about anything related to design.


                                                                                    --
                                                                                    Mark A. Boyd
                                                                                    Keep-On-Learnin' :)
                                                                                    • 39. Re: Web Page Layout Resolution
                                                                                      Level 7
                                                                                      darrel posted in macromedia.dreamweaver:

                                                                                      >> I think experts and scientists agree, though, on the big things.
                                                                                      >> Like how many animated GIF images one can use on a page.
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      > I heard they just built a giant animated GIF accelerator in Europe
                                                                                      > somewhere.
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      > Some fear that this could potentially lead to the global blue
                                                                                      > screen of death.

                                                                                      Sucking us all into Windoze at the center of the Earth.

                                                                                      What sort of sub-pixels do they expect to discover from these
                                                                                      collissions?


                                                                                      --
                                                                                      Mark A. Boyd
                                                                                      Keep-On-Learnin' :)
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