10 Replies Latest reply on Apr 10, 2009 5:17 PM by the_wine_snob

    General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.

    drLucio

      Hello Everyone:

      For some reason I've been having all kinds of problems creating dvds from Premier Elements 3 in Vista in spite of the patch/all windows updates/service pack updates, etc.  Consequently I've decided to buy Premier Elements 7  but was wondering if any of you knew whether the following could be done with Elements 7:

      1.Import SD video (eg VHS) and upconvert into High Definition

      2.Output stereo or mono audio from the video into 5.1 simulated surround

      3.Create 3D menus

      4.With Elements 3 there were times were I would find picture degradation whenever I adjusted the speed or position of the video (almost like a bluriness in parts). Adjusting the fields and/or flicker removal did not help. Has anyone noticed this in Elements 7?

      5.There are limits in picture improvement with Elements 3. Has anything extra been added to version 7 to enhance this feature? (do you guys ever see these tv shows like CSI where they can take a web cam video and substantially improve the picture? I wonder if any of this is truly possible)

      6.Work with high defintion video smoothly and output to blue ray dvd.

      Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

      Lucio

      email: dr_lucio@yahoo.com

      My computer: HP Intel Pentium 4, quad processor, 3 G ram, 400 G hard drive (plus 1 T external HD)

        • 1. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
          the_wine_snob Level 9

          Lucio,

           

          For a few of your questions:

           

          You can create 3D animated video, and use that as a Motion Menu. As far as creating 3D, whether via colored, or polarized sources is not part of the DVD spec. Maybe I'm missing exactly what you wish to do here.

           

          None of the PrElements versions allows for export to DD 5.1 SS AC3. PrPro will do it, but with the Minnetonka SurCode plug-in (about US$ 250 extra).

           

          Unfortunately, upconverting an SD source to HD is not something that you can do with PE. You can convert to HD sizes, but all you are doing is enlarging the SD source to occupy the space and aspect ration of HD. It's about the same as taking a 4x5 image and converting it to 11x14 in Photoshop. You're limited by the source material, and you cannot create "real" pixels, where they do not exist, at least not without degredation. I'm afraid that much of what is seen on TV is pretty much like the stories. Now, if you hire ILM, or Pixar, you might be able to do more than one can with a desktop NLE program.

           

          Depending on your HD footage, a lot of people have been having great success with editing and output to BD, provided that they have a very fast computer, optimized for dealing with ACVHD.

           

          I'm sure that others will have many more comments for you.

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
            Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

            To the quality issues you're seeing (blurriness, for instance) that might well be related to the source video you're using.

             

            What type of camcorder is your video coming from and how are you getting the video into your computer?

            • 3. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
              drLucio Level 1

              Hello Hunt:

              Thanks a lot for your very quick reply. Although I was hoping for more (eg 5.1 surround/HD upconverting, etc) from PE7, I really appreciate your explanations. It has certainly answered most of my questions clearly and accurately.

              About the 3D menus, I was thinking along the lines of some of those tv show dvd menus where one 'clicks' on a picture on the menu (eg choosing a specific episode) which then seems to float away to a second menu page where scenes can be chosen. This picture then bends and floats to a 3rd page that gives you the option of a director commentary on or off, etc.

              Thanks again

              Lucio

              • 4. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
                drLucio Level 1

                Hi Steve:

                Thanks a lot for replying to my query. I'm amazed at how you have the time to write books, edit video and answer our many questions. Amazing! Your Premier Elements 2 in a Snap book is still my favourite reference and probably the reason that I'm trying to advance to more complicated/technical videos now that I've learned so much.

                About the quality issue, I've tried to import from dvd, from super vhs, and laser disc (the movie in question is the Elvis Presley 1970 documentary, That's The Way It Is)  in 3 ways:

                1.Using the canopus movie box (svhs cables)

                2.Through Adobe media downloader (dvd)

                3.Via dvd shrink and then converting to dv-avi with Nero 8 (dvd)

                In all 3 cases, the footage looks and sound perfect on my timeline playback but if I try to adjust the speed or move the picture up or down the screen, the resultant image after rendering is slightly blurry especially on the long shots while playing (when stopped each frame is still perfect). This doesn't happen all the time but once in awhile with dvd quality footage (even without copyguards). As mentioned, I've tried importing 3 different ways and all 3 times I've had the same problem.

                If this explanation doesn't seem clear  to you (excuse the pun), I can upload a few seconds of the before and after to you in mpeg 2 for you to see what I mean.

                Thanks

                Lucio

                • 5. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  Lucio,

                   

                  Thanks for the clarification on the "3D Menus." Those are done with Button Transitions, which are AV files (often done in either an NLE, or in AfterEffects). I do not think that PE can work with Button Transitions, as its authoring scheme is fairly simple (though it does do some cool things with multi-language Menus and other stuff, under the hood). Adobe Encore (now bundled with PrPro) does it easily. I would *guess* that some other full authoring programs (obviously consumer, as there are a ton of heavy-duty pro programs that do it) will allow Button Transitions. It is not difficult to do, given the right program. As I do not use anything beyond Encore, I do not know what capabilities might be included in other authoring programs.

                   

                  There are several good discussion threads on the Adobe Forum, that talk about the how-to and what to watch fors, when doing it. I recently found out that the Audio format of the Menu and the Button Transition must be the same.

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                    Lucio,

                     

                    Yes, Steve amazes all of us too!

                     

                    Now, a few questions on your Project:

                     

                    Where are you judging the quality? If it's from the Timeline, via Playback, is there a red line, or a green one, above the Timeline? This can make a big difference.

                     

                    Have you burned a simple "test" DVD (I use DVD RW's, so I can reuse them up to 1,000 times), and played on a TV, via a set-top player? This would be my litmus test, if you do not have a calibrated NTSC CRT monitor hooked up to your computer to judge the final output. Even doing the "test" Burn to DVD RW and playing it back on a computer via a DVD software player will be dealing with apples and oranges. Most computer monitors are much higher resolution, than are most TV's. If your intent is to play the final DVD on a TV, that should be the final quality test.

                     

                    Hunt

                    • 7. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
                      drLucio Level 1

                      Hi Again Hunt:

                      Thanks for the valuable information on menu creation. What you've said makes a lot of sense. When I first started editing a couple of years ago I wasn't very concerned about menus (simple ones were fine) but as the techniques develop I find that all aspects of editing including menus and 5.1 surround become important.

                      Regarding the quality issue, I use a canopus movie box (or my digitial Canon hv20 video cam) to output via firewire to my 65" tv. It's much easier on my eyes to edit that way. What I've been finding is that if I work with dvd or high resolution supervhs, there is a weird type of quality loss/bluriness that develops on 'some' clips with long shots (this is after rendering the clip with the green line above the timeline in playback). Sometimes reversing the field and flicker removal solves the problem but often it does not. If this was happening with every clip, then I would expect that it has something to do with my importing but since it happens mostly with dvd video, it seems strange. As I said, if I import the video into my timeline and do not adjust the speed or size of the picture, all is fine (ie picture enhancement/sharpening, etc do not degrade the quality). If I do adjust the speed of the video, then I have the trouble.  

                      When using my regular vhs tapes or dv camera footage, there's no problem. When burning to dvd and playing it on my tv, the resultant picture is exactly what I see when editing.

                      Now, this is the weird part. If I do the same editing with the same footage in a different software like Magix, the picture is fine. Only Adobe Premier Elements seems to give me this problem and of course Adobe is the best editing software in my opinion for ease of use.

                      Thanks

                      Lucio

                      • 8. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                        Lucio,

                         

                        Just to clarify, you state "... but since it happens mostly with dvd video, it seems strange." Does this mean that the degradation appears in footage that you extracted from an existing DVD?

                         

                        If so, then one explanation could be that that footage has been compressed to MPEG-2, at some place along the workflow. You then bring that into PE (either native, or via a conversion to DV-AVI Type II), edit it (especially with Time Re-mapping of some sort), and then Export to MPEG-2 to create your new DVD. This means that the footage has gone from fully I-frame (each frame is represented in total), and is then compressed via a GOP scheme, which eliminates most to the data from about 15 following frames, leaving only the difference from the I-frame. In PE (or a convertion program), each frame is reconstructed from the GOP "difference" frames, the editing is done and a new GOP scheme is introduced, when you go to DVD again. That WILL degrade an image. Usually, fast motion will quickly show up problems, but a Time Re-mapping will probably do so, as well.

                         

                        The way around this is to go to the footage, that was used to initially create the DVD that you are ripping from. Hopefully, if was Captured from miniDV tape as a DV-AVI Type II, and will be full I-frame, with no conversion/compression having been done to it. Import that footage into PE and work with it. Though it will probably mean more editing (to get it to the state of the edited footage that went onto the DVD to begin with), but the quality will be far better.

                         

                        If you cannot go to a time before it was Burned to DVD, then the quality is probably as good as it will get.

                         

                        Also, any Time Re-mapping will look best, if you are working with original DV-AVI Type II footage. Even then, the results can suffer a bit, but will be as good as you can achieve. If your doing this with footage that has undergone one compression already, the results will suffer - and then, you will compress once more. Any chance of getting the original footage? If not, using the Field Reversal, as you have, and possibly a touch of Unsharp Mask (do not know if PE offers this Effect), might help. Apply it very, very lightly, because you can easily get "shimmering" on the edges of an object, especially an object in motion. You want just enough Sharpening to reduce the "fuzzy" look, and not one bit more.

                         

                        Other than that, you are doing everything correctly, as far as I can tell. Maybe someone else will have a little trick, or two, for you to try.

                         

                        I've also had luck with light application of Neat Video, then light application of Unsharp Mask. Usually, Neat Video is used to remove "grain/noise" from an image, but I've used it to smooth the frames a bit (go lightly with it), and then the Sharpening. Might be worth the effort to install the trial, and test. The plug-in is about US$90, but is a good one, where needed. Note: Render times will go up, if one applies this Effect.

                         

                        Good luck,

                         

                        Hunt

                        • 9. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
                          drLucio Level 1

                          Hello Hunt:

                          I think you hit the nail on the head in describing that quality suffers in the creation of new GOP frames when going from mpeg to dv-avi and back to mpeg. The dvds I was using were originally given to me as dvds (tv recorded/official releases, etc), not dv-avi. I think it's the time remapping that is making the degradation much more obvious. What surprised me was getting this problem even when copying the footage through analog svhs via the canopus movie box directly into dv-avi as well as via my canon hv 20 (as a pass through).

                          I'll check out Neat video. It sounds great to have something that can help remove graininess, especially since I have so many old vhs tapes I've been wanting to edit over the upcoming months.

                          Thanks again,

                          Lucio

                          • 10. Re: General questions about High Def and 5.1 surround in Premier Elem.
                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                            Lucio,

                             

                            Thank you for reporting on this.

                             

                            I hope that Neat Video helps you out. While it's designed to minimize "grain," especially with low-light video shooting, it works in some other instances well too. Do load up the trial, if still available, and give it a go. The Auto survey of your images might take some tweaking, unless you happened to have a grey card to start the shot, like anybody does. Still, with little bit of adjusting, you can probably enhance the footage. I only wish that it had a full-screen monitor in the interface! Don't forget to add just a touch of sharpening AFTER Neat Video. In PrPro, the placement of Effects has a big impact. I think that it's the same in PE, so you'll want the Unsharp Mask (or whatever you decide on) to be the last Effect in the Effects Panel for that Clip.

                             

                            Also, if you find the proper settings for all your Effects on one Clip, you can Rt-click that Clip, choose Copy and then select all other Clips with the same lighing, etc., and Rt-click on them, choosing Paste Attributes.

                             

                            Good luck with the Project,

                             

                            Hunt