9 Replies Latest reply on Apr 17, 2009 6:28 AM by Lou Dina

    Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey

      Situation: printing a 30pg book from indesign onto my Epson printer.

      Problem: colors are do not match screen, while printing from Ps and Id

       

      Possible reasons:

      1. non-postscript printer

      2. monitor uncalibrated

      3. settings in colorsync

      4. settings in psd

      5. huey is not insufficient as a monitor calibrator. need another color management hardware: screen-to-papaer matching, thingy???

      6. maybe i need to create new profiles: monitor profile, paper profile

       

      What i know/ What I have been told/ What I've already performed:

      printing from epson desktop printer:

      1. keep images at RGB

      2. save as eps8bit-but this is for outsourcing to a printer company

      3. if all else fails, when colors don't match, print in illustrator or acrobat

      -----

      4. printer head and alignment has been performed numerous times

      5. ink has been changed every 2 -weeks

      -----

      6. settings in psd:

      Adobe RGB (1998)

      U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2

       

      7. test printed on epson super fine paper in CS4 PSD

      "document: Epson sRGB" also "document: Adobe RGB (1998)"

      "photoshop determine color"

      "SP 1400 1410 PQIJ"

       

      Results:  prints still look bad

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------

       

      What i don't know:

      1. i'm guessing this printer isn't post-script, does it need to be in order to match what i see on screen and on paper

      2. how to create new profiles, do i need to???

      3. CS4 still unstable with epson 1400/ pm-g4500

      4. huey: after calibration in a dark room, creates a monitor profile that has more red tint. is this right?

       

       

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------

       

      Hardware:

      Japan Epson PM-G4500 (U.S. epson Stylus Photo 1400)

      using the epson driver: 12571.dmg -(u.s. driver, i can't read the japanese version), so im using their paper profiles are shown in PSD

       

      Benq G2400w

      5 default settings: using the sRGB setting: un-edited

       

      Huey Monitor Calibrator

      ??? 1.0.4 software update, sometimes appears on the desktop menu bar, sometimes not. somewhere it is said i might need to extract files and place into preferences, don't know details, so can't perform this task

      ---------------------------------------

      OSx: 10.5.6

      SystemPreferences/Displays/Color/DisplayProfile/ D65 G1.8 A??? turned off Huey and Calibrated by eye

      then applied Huey. it came out to d65 G2.2 A0.00. cannot be edited---Huey GAVE MY MONITOR A MORE RED Tint

      CS4 Psd 11.0.1

      CS4 Indesign 6.0.1

      Colorsync:checking a total of 82 profiles    13 bad files??? don't know if this is relevant to the problem

      --------------------------------------

      when opening file:

      Embedded: Epson sRGB, so I Discard and use Adobe RGB (1998)

       

      saved as tiff, jpeg, psd

       

      PSD settings:

      RGB: Adobe (1998)

      CMYK: U.S. SWOP

       

      Color Management:

      Document (Profile: Adobe RGB (1998)

      Photoshop Manages Colors

      Printer Profile: SP14001410 PQJI ("super fine paper")

      --------------------------------------------------------

      people have mentioned to turn of colorsync to improve color matching. cannot turn of colorsync in psd. it is grayed out and is autmatically selected.

      so, i opened the  "preview" software:

      file/print/colormatching/ the option to choose color sync or epson is there. but i have to select one.

       

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Suggestions, anyone

      1. Do i need a rips software: ex. Colorbyte's product, "Imageprint" my epson is only a sp 1400/pm g-4500, so is this necessary?

      2. Get a different monitor?

      3. Buy a different monitor calibrator?

      4. Do i need to trash/replace anything in the preferences?

       

      i know i have a monitor calibration problem, but i also have a printer problem. What should I do? I've seen test screens available on the internet, but I don't want to make corrections just by eyesight. Is this my only option left?

        • 1. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
          Lou Dina Level 3

          Rich,

           

          It's hard to know where to start.

           

          First, if your monitor isn't calibrated (or properly calibrated and profiled), getting a good monitor to print match will be difficult to impossible.  Second, you need an accurate printer profile for your printer/paper/ink combination, and you need to print with the correct settings and profiles.  Third, your ambient lighting and viewing lights will also affect your perception of the viewed print, so they need to be controlled.  Assuming you have done these things (which is questionable from your post) you need to compare your monitor image in "Soft Proof Mode" using the appropriate printer profile and rendering intent.

           

          You should be able to do this with your printer driver and get very good results.  A CMYK RIP is not required, except for contract proofs, and any commercial printer will supply his own contract proofs anyway. A non-postscript printer will not perfectly render things like lines, text, and vector objects, so if you require adsolute perfection, then you will need a postscript RIP, but that seems unnecessary, especially at this level.  You need to get the basic blocking and tackling handled first.

           

          I don't have a Huey, but I have heard mixed reviews on them.

           

          As far as sending CMYK files to a printer, I never use EPS files.  EPS files cannot retain color profile information, so the commercial printer will simply output the CMYK numbers in the file.  EPS had its day, but for general use, I prefer PSD or flattened TIFF for bitmap images, and native AI files from Illustrator.

           

          I'm on a PC, not a Mac, and I am not using CS4 yet.  I do know that I had problems in the past sending InDesign files to an Epson printer, with color shifting.  It was never resolved to my satisfaction.

           

          I think you might benefit by reading a book like Real World Color Management.  It will help you understand how all the elements fit together to get more predictable results.  If your originals are highly colorful and have a wide dynamic range, you will probably never get a good match in print, since CMYK gamut on paper simply won't print a lot of colors your monitor can display.  However, you can get a lot closer than you are now getting by implementing the proper tools and procedures.

           

          I know I didn't address all your questions, but what you have requested is a complete course in color management.  It's a deep subject for the uninitiated and requires study.

           

          I do have some PDF files on my website that discuss some of the critical elements of color management, but they are not intended to replace replace a full treatise on the subject.  Here's the link, if you are interested. Click the links to the left on the Color Management page to read or download the PDF files.

           

          www.DinaGraphics.com/color_management.php.

           

          Lou

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
            Level 1

            give me a weekend. i'm rereading your stuff.

            • 3. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
              Lou Dina Level 3

              Hi Rich.

               

              I will answer your questions below (using CAPS, so you can differentiate my

              answers).  There are a lot of variables in the color management chain, and a

              number of places to trip up.  At first it is complicated and hard to get

              your arms around, but once you understand it, it makes sense and works well.

               

              OOPS.....trying to learn this new forum.  I hit "reply" to an incoming email from the forum, (I thought it was a personal email), and the above partial response is all that was posted.  Guess you gotta post directly online.  Sorry folks. 

               

              Lou

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
                Level 1

                Lou,

                 

                thanks for the information. i want to reply as soon as i can. you're hints have given me some insight on the direction i should approach this. i thank you for that.

                 

                this is what i wrote and delayed posting:

                 

                 

                ...getting a good monitor to print match will be difficult to impossible.

                --agree, i think the monitor [i have] is for purely gaming. big mistake on my part. i will try to pick-up a huey pro. if i recall correctly, huey pro allows you to edit the profiles. i could be wrong. are there any monitors you suggest, IPS??? i think that's what they're called? i just found a name-drop on the apple web store;p --"eizo"

                 

                 

                Second, you need an accurate printer profile for your printer/paper/ink combination, and you need to print with the correct settings and profiles.

                -- to tell you the truth, for this project, i will be using non-epson paper. i will research these vendors for their paper profile, if available- Kokuyo. yes, its non-epson, but their are some cool papers out there that are "dying" to be used by someone.

                 

                ...ambient lighting and viewing lights will also affect your perception of the viewed print, so they need to be controlled.

                --I'm using 2 flourescent lights. one, close to the screen to the left and the other a ceiling type for the entire room.  i've tried huey both at night and during the day. checking the monitor,  colors, and prints, i preferably, do during the day.

                 

                ..."Soft Proof Mode"

                -I'll look into this. I found some info on it last night. "big ups, Lou!"

                 

                ...then you will need a postscript RIP, but that seems unnecessary, especially at this level.

                --i'm trying to stay "low-brow" as long as possible. Is messing with the curves the best work around, so far. the work ahead of me looks daunting. ;p

                 

                ...blocking and tackling handled first.

                --color management, i'm guessing. is this a hint to something?

                 

                I don't have a Huey, but I have heard mixed reviews on them.

                --are there any that you suggest?

                 

                ... Real World Color Management.

                -I'll look into it

                 

                ...but they are not intended to replace a full treatise on the subject.

                I totally agree. I'm looking at your site, as i write this. Its well put together.

                 

                thanks Lou, that gives me some insight.

                 

                big ups,

                Lou

                 

                other questions:

                1. are you using color sync throughout your workflow?

                2. there were 19 damaged profiles out of 39 in my color sync. is it important i fix these?

                -------

                3. from what i understand so far, there are profiles for the following:

                a. epson paper

                b. monitor

                c. photoshop/ and illus.

                 

                Am i missing the concept here?

                If all the files in this book were created with an embedded EpsonRGB, theoretically I should print to epson with the printer profile set as: EpsonRGB. its one straight line, but i'm guessing this is one way. i have yet to test it. the other way of course, is to zero out all variables, use working profile when opening in psd and then print... that's what i've got to work out still.

                -------

                 

                4. i presume printing the book as a pdf on acrobat is one "work-around" solution.

                5. from what it sounds like creating a post-script is not necessary, so i'll focus more on the pdf printing in acrobat

                ------

                6. come to think of it, i've had problems with printing on cs3, using the above mentioned monitor.

                a. is this right? 1. calibrate the screen first.but how do i tell psd to tell the monitor that its too red: a.) color sync? b.) soft proofing

                 

                i need  to learn how to create new profiles.

                 

                 

                i'm getting addicted to this color management research so helpful hints are cool for now. i'm gonna try and figure this out on my own.

                 

                i'll get back to you monday with my findings.

                • 5. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
                  Level 1

                  adobe gamma. do you have that turned off on your windows set-up? i've read somewhere that windows user turn the thing off.

                   

                  oh, i forgot to mention that epson print dialogue box #2-the final one pop-upscreen before you can actually print. its is slightly different from cs3 and cs4.

                  strange.

                   

                  1. i can't check gamma or unselect/select color sync.

                  2. paper selection is a little different. it contradicts the main print dialogue-box/printerprofile/ example: epson 1400 1410 UPGP

                   

                   

                  i'm workin on it.

                  • 6. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
                    Lou Dina Level 3

                    Rich....answers below you questions.

                     

                    --agree, i think the monitor [i have] is for purely gaming. big mistake on my part. i will try to pick-up a huey pro. if i recall correctly, huey pro allows you to edit the profiles. i could be wrong. are there any monitors you suggest, IPS??? i think that's what they're called? i just found a name-drop on the apple web store;p --"eizo"

                     

                    If you are serious about color matching, start with a monitor profiling package.  Your monitor may be more than good enough, so save the money.  You'll need a monitor profiling package anyway, so start there.  Then, if that doesn't cut it, get a new monitor.  Unless you are doing high end work and have money to burn, you probably don't need an Eizo.  Nice, but expensive.

                     

                     

                    Second, you need an accurate printer profile for your printer/paper/ink combination, and you need to print with the correct settings and profiles.

                    -- to tell you the truth, for this project, i will be using non-epson paper. i will research these vendors for their paper profile, if available- Kokuyo. yes, its non-epson, but their are some cool papers out there that are "dying" to be used by someone.

                     

                    Profiles provided by paper and/or ink manufacturers vary tremendously.  Even the good ones are only good for printers that closely adhere to the "standard" used to generate the profile.  If your printer happens to be coincide with the standard, great.  But, even then, some profiles are well made and others are not.  Try them and see how they work.  If they work great, fantastic, but you still need to compare your results to a properly calibrated and profiled monitor, otherwise, forget it.

                     

                    ...ambient lighting and viewing lights will also affect your perception of the viewed print, so they need to be controlled.

                    --I'm using 2 flourescent lights. one, close to the screen to the left and the other a ceiling type for the entire room.  i've tried huey both at night and during the day. checking the monitor,  colors, and prints, i preferably, do during the day.

                     

                    You probably have bigger fish to fry, so save the lighting for later.  If you can, look at your prints using filtered daylight (e.g., soft, indirect light from a north facing window, with the sun in the south.  Don't hold the print next to a green or red wall, bright yellow curtains, etc).  Filtered daylight will give you fairly accurate representation of the colors in your print.  When ready for viewing lights, we can talk again.

                     


                    ...then you will need a postscript RIP, but that seems unnecessary, especially at this level.

                    --i'm trying to stay "low-brow" as long as possible. Is messing with the curves the best work around, so far. the work ahead of me looks daunting. ;p

                     

                    Don't get a RIP, especially at this point.  Get the basics handled and it is highly unlikely you will need a RIP.

                     

                    I don't have a Huey, but I have heard mixed reviews on them.

                    --are there any that you suggest?

                     

                    i1 Display is a decent, cost effective package.  Check with www.Chromix.com and see what they suggest.  This package will ONLY profile monitors, not printers.  If you want to generate your own printer profiles, be prepared to spend a lot more money.

                     

                    other questions:

                    1. are you using color sync throughout your workflow? No...I am working on a PC, which doesn't have colorsync.

                     

                    2. there were 19 damaged profiles out of 39 in my color sync. is it important i fix these? Not even sure what this means.  Check with a Mac person.

                    -------

                    3. from what i understand so far, there are profiles for the following:

                    a. epson paper

                    b. monitor

                    c. photoshop/ and illus.

                     

                     

                    Am i missing the concept here?

                    If all the files in this book were created with an embedded EpsonRGB, theoretically I should print to epson with the printer profile set as: EpsonRGB. its one straight line, but i'm guessing this is one way. i have yet to test it. the other way of course, is to zero out all variables, use working profile when opening in psd and then print... that's what i've got to work out still.

                    -------

                     

                    I am guessing EpsonRGB is probably their captive name for sRGB, but I don't know.  You really need to understand the concepts before getting hung up on details.  Real World Color Management is the place to start.  Typically, you will be dealing with three types of profiles....Monitor profiles so your images display accurately, printer profiles (inkjet, press, etc) which will make sure your colors print accurately, and working space profiles (sRGB, Adobe RGB, ProPhoto RGB, etc).  They all tie together, using a device independent, mathematical model of human vision as the universal translator.  Get the book.

                     

                     

                    4. i presume printing the book as a pdf on acrobat is one "work-around" solution.

                     

                    It depends what you mean by work-around.  Yes, you can output to PDF, but you still need to make sure you are not screwing up the color by improperly implementing color management.  The principles still apply.  You can hose the color in a PDF too if you don't handle it properly.

                     

                    5. from what it sounds like creating a post-script is not necessary, so i'll focus more on the pdf printing in acrobat

                     

                    If you are talking about sending a job to a printing press, I'd send InDesign or PDF files to your printer (or Illustrator for simple layouts).  The commercial printer will RIP the file and create plates for the press.  So, you don't have to create postscript yourself.  For simple inkjet prints, you normally don't need a postscript RIP.

                     

                    ------

                    6. come to think of it, i've had problems with printing on cs3, using the above mentioned monitor.

                    a. is this right? 1. calibrate the screen first.but how do i tell psd to tell the monitor that its too red: a.) color sync? b.) soft proofing

                     

                    Again....Read Real World Color Management.  You need to understand the principles first.  Asking detailed questions without having a solid understanding of principles is the long, hard way.  A monitor profiling package will calibrate and profile your monitor, bringing it back to standard benchmark.  You want consistency and accuracy. 

                     

                     

                     

                     


                    • 7. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
                      Was DYP Level 3

                      Wow what a bunch of posting for one simple problem of getting accurate prints from IDCS3 and IDCS4 to an RGB printer on the Mac OS.

                       

                      If "Print as Bitmap" is not check in the advanced tab of the ID print dialog the Apple print path (for what ever reason) inserts the monitor profile into the print flow. Or if you have a Canon printer with a driver that allows Fast Graphic Process you will be able to avoid the print path that inserts the monitor profile into the print flow.

                       

                      Of course everything else in the process needs calibrated as well, but one little thing (even if everything else is calibrated and profiled properly) the like the monitor profile being introduce into the print flow when printing to an RGB device from ID will screw up the final result.

                       

                      With a proper paper profile and a download test file that you do not alter in anyway you should get a correct print if you color settings are correct. Having the monitor profiled in not necessary in this situation. Where it absolutely necessary is when you need to make visual color decisions.

                      • 8. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
                        Level 1

                        to Was DYP:

                         

                        i remember seeing that option, however i've yet to test it. i'll try this weekend. i'll get back to you w/ my results.

                         

                        i tried printing another project. this came very close: my settings:

                         

                        in psd.

                        file 600 dpi

                        profile: Adobe RGB (1998)

                        photoshop manages color

                        printer profile: SP1400 1410 Standard --- I'm using japan's PM-g4500.

                        Relative Colorimetric

                        Black point compensation

                         

                        [second print box]

                        printer features:

                        color

                        epson super fine paper

                        720 x 720 dpi

                         

                        these settings look great on my other project. i then tried to match my monitor to these printouts via systempref/monitor/color. huey settings disappeared and were not an option.

                         

                         

                        (by the way, there is a printer profile for the PM-G4500 however each time i sent a file  to the printer. it appears in the printer utility box, but then disappears to somewhere. it doesn't print. printer's green light doesn't even blink.  so i have to resort to using sp photo 1400 1410/... i'm sure its the same. i kinda blame this on a recent epson update via apple update.)

                         

                         

                        ----------------------------------------------

                        anyways. to my main beef. ;p

                         

                        quick question. to Dina and DYP. something else has come up:

                         

                        when sending an image to print from Ps on a A3 or Super A3/B, the image always prints off-centered, when clearly it should've been centered-based on my settings in the 1st print dialogue box.

                         

                        i tried to crop the image as tight as possible leaving no white canvas. it still gets cut off.

                         

                        i created a new document and made sure my image of 600 dpi matches to the file setting of 600dpi

                         

                        i tried checking and unchecking: center ; scale ; bounding box ; but to no avail.

                         

                        it came close to exact when i tried to send the image to a double-sided matte paper. set to "scale to fit media." It did just that however both ends, front and back, were cut off. when clearly it should have fit to media. there's a difference between the printer preview and my print-out.

                         

                         

                        check this. i sent it to Ai. and it printed my image centered. it worked. the document space was cropped to the edge of my image.

                         

                        my only beef is that its a bit dull in AI. that's why i tried printing from psd.

                         

                        i sent a tiff file to acrobat to print. this time with white canvas. it nearly worked but was not centered as the print preview had shown. colors are awful as well.

                         

                        i've never had problems with printing an image. the images get cut off the. in Ps, i tried to manually move the image either in the file or in the print box, but the image is still cut off

                         

                        what am i doing wrong here? this is the first time its happened. usually, my printing errors are quickly resolved either  its a "borderless" setting i forgot or i made a mistake in a custom paper size.

                         

                        what's going on here.

                        • 9. Re: Cs4PSD InDesign Epson SP1400/PM-G4500 Benq G2400w Colorsync Huey
                          Lou Dina Level 3

                          I don't have problems centering a print.  You have to make sure BOTH Photoshop AND your driver are set up correctly.  Check your driver settings.

                           

                          As far as your color issues, I am not really sure I understand what you mean.  It is better to provide all the settings, both in PS and the driver.  Is the profile you are using specifically for this paper or is this some generic profile for a generic paper?  Whether the settings you used on your other project "looked great" is really irrelevant; the question is do you get a good monitor to print match and are you getting the most possible from your printer/paper/ink combination.  Color management is about improving accuracy and consistency throughout the process.

                           

                          Have you bought and read Real World Color Management?  That's the best place to start if you want to understand this stuff.

                           

                          Lou