39 Replies Latest reply on Aug 2, 2009 12:16 AM by Keesh7663

    ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks

      I've been using addt since the glory days of interakt. I bloody love the thing. I've built complete real estate cms', blogs, forums. You name it, I've done it. Starting off, I was restricted to the front end view, but quicky enough, addt forced me into the code view. From there, php books, forums etc.

       

      Now I've noticed in a professional world, there's not that many that know what addt even is..let alone use it.

       

      Zend, cakephp, codeigniter etc

       

      I'm looking to make the leap from one framework to another. Any other addters done this? Any recommendations?

        • 1. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
          Günter Schenk Level 4

          bloodfoot wrote:

           

          Now I've noticed in a professional world, there's not that many that know what addt even is..let alone use it.

          professional developers use to keep an eye on important aspects such as excellent documentation, ongoing development & bugfixes, being part of a big user community, and of course using a framework which even "the next boss around the corner" is already well aware of -- that´s where the jobs come from ;-).

           

          bloodfoot wrote:

           

          Zend, cakephp, codeigniter etc

           

          I'm looking to make the leap from one framework to another. Any other addters done this? Any recommendations?

          I´m unsure either, but I´ve made myself a list of all the things I expect from the "next framework", and this list basically contains the aspects I mentioned above.

          • 2. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
            Level 1

            But from a php development background from something such as addt, what framework would be most familiar? I would find it pretty hard to find an application that addt couldn't be applied to.

             

            So any addt users use any of the above frameworks? Which ones did you find the most logical step forward from addt?

            • 3. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
              HauteJordo Level 1

              I think any of those open source frameworks actually present an illogical step backwards from using ADDT.  I would sooner switch to .Net than use any of the open source frameworks.

              • 4. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                Level 1

                well, addt is dead/finished now so one has to look into alternatives.

                 

                I'm gearing towards cakephp

                • 5. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                  HauteJordo Level 1

                  cakephp leaves alot to be desired compared to addt.

                   

                  i hadn't previously seen the announcement, I really took it for granted the product would not be updated for CS4 and then discontinued.  I'm seriously thinking about contacting a lawyer about this, since I upgraded to CS4 for the expressed purpose of geting the compatibility upgrade. Not that a lawyer can do anything but tell me I got ripped off.

                   

                  Have you looked at the extensions from web assist? maybe adobe can render those obsolete next.

                  • 6. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                    Level 1

                    Had a look at them. I'm sure a mix between addt and web assist would be awesome.

                     

                    One thing I don't get about addt is it's popularity. It's such an amazing tool. User registration system in 10 mins, Image uploads etc. Why don't more people use it?

                     

                    I always got this inferiority complex when explaining to other developers

                    "I built this CMS using ADDT"

                     

                    "what's that?"

                     

                    "Dreamweaver plugin"

                     

                    ".....lol, ok"

                     

                    Everything just..works. Shame to see it go.

                    • 7. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                      HauteJordo Level 1

                      Yeah...web assist does look like it's missing  a few features.  Anyway, some more random thoughts:

                       

                      1.  I first tried phpcake a few years ago and went with Interakt instead.  Interakt has been like a secret weapon. It's been the easy-button on many occassions.

                       

                      2.  Web Assist does look like its missing some key components.  I prob won't even bother trying it and then getting my money back if I don't like it.  If they're smart, then they're watching this forum and will welcome alienated ADDT users...but I don't see a red carpet from them yet.

                       

                      3.  I'd def be interested in hearing about cake vs code ignitor.  Code Ignitor has videos..so it has to be better than cake, right? =)

                       

                      4.  I'm going to give Adobe the benefit of the doubt and try and work with spry and xml and see what i can come up with.  I'm seriously bummed though.

                       

                       

                      I'm a QA engineer by day, programmer by night.  Co-workers often suggest I just learn how to do things by hand. This misses the point.  Doing things by hand is a recipe for making dumb mistakes.  The learning curve has very little to do with it.   It's the difference between copy and paste and typing.  It's 2010 (almost), I shouldn't have to waste my time on things that have been figured out for many, many years now.

                      • 8. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                        DwFAQ Level 4

                        Haute,

                         

                        What key components in WebAssist are missing vs. ADDT?

                         

                        You upgraded to CS4 to get the compatibility of ADDT and you got it... what's the problem? Lawyer can't do anything about you expecting more than what is offered. If you expected more than ADDT v1.0.1 when you purchased ADDT v1.0.1 sorry to say you were mistaken.

                        • 9. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                          HauteJordo Level 1

                          The problem is...I'm disappointed ADDT hasn't amounted to anything more than an announcement about it getting discontinued.  What's your name? Maybe I find a lawyer and sue you because you want to deprive me of a full-year's worth of supported, ADDT CS4 usage instead of only a couple of months...listen, if you want to take me so literally, go ahead.  I could have wished for wider adoption of ADDT.  Did I mention I'm disappointed? In other words, I was a fan of the product.

                           

                          I don't think I'm going to find out what features are missing from web assist...I didn't anything about comma separated checkboxes...because I'm not going to bother with it.

                           

                          But since my earlier offer to sue the pants off Adobe for the emotional distress they have caused me, I have been able to spend some time on my computer at home with the stock install of CS4 and I'm glad to say I completely forgot many of the features in ADDT were already in CS4.

                           

                          Moreover, given the future of delivering for different platforms, ADDT does amount to doing things in a somewhat old-fashioned way. So, in a way, discontinuing ADDT is a good way of making me 'get with the program' and do things with spry I would otherwise do with my eyes closed using ADDT. 

                           

                          I will even go so far to say the less is more approach that CS4 has really is better in terms of building maintainable websites and not looking like a goob who has to rely on wizards. 

                           

                          Lastly, to be clear, it's not ADDT that I will miss.  It's the original "total package" offered by the Interakt Team, including the outstanding level of support in the forums, which is no offense to Gunther Shenk--there were a lot more interakt developers on the forums before.  That's way beyond what a lot of companies and freebie frameworks offer.

                          • 10. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                            Purple Edge Level 1

                            I'm also inclined to look at the ones with good documentation. Codeigniter has a couple of books published for it.

                             

                            I'm also inclined to look at cms tools, there are literally hundreds available, and the biggest aren't necessarily the best. WebsiteBaker looks good for simple sites and might even be worth exploring for additional customisation?

                             

                            WebAssist is nothing like ADDT. I have bought quite a few of their tools and I think that I only use their GoogleMapsPro and CSS designer, the rest of them I find completely counter-intuitive compared to the way that ADDT does things.

                            • 11. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                              Neil Eisenberg Level 1

                              I too am a big fan of ADDT, as I was with Interakt.  I am also a fan of Gunter's, and I think he has done an amazing job.  I didnt get CS4 yet, and now if I do, I guess they arent selling the ADDT upgrade anymore, which is soooo stupid if its true... so now I may NOT upgrade to CS4.... geeze..

                               

                              I did take the plunge to webassist and bought everything they make... and I am muddling through learning them.  I was forced to learn their ecommerce suite on the fly when a developer THEY recommended crapped out on me after working on a project for 4 months...delivering nothing.  The good thing that came out of it is that I have learned a lot about their toold, which work a little differently than the ADDT... but I must say, I am finding them to be pretty good.

                               

                              I am interested in knowing what components of ADDT are built in to CS4.  Basically... should I get it or not, and if I do, will I be able to get the ADDT upgrade anywhere?

                               

                              MAn... I am so pissed at Adobe.  It seems that the bottom line is that everything they do is designed to make things harder, UNLESS you spend more money.  Staying put isnt an option.  Lets hope they dont target Webassist to be put out of business now.  Tools are a good thing.

                              • 12. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                Günter Schenk Level 4

                                HauteJordo wrote:

                                 

                                Co-workers often suggest I just learn how to do things by hand. This misses the point.  Doing things by hand is a recipe for making dumb mistakes.  The learning curve has very little to do with it.   It's the difference between copy and paste and typing.  It's 2010 (almost), I shouldn't have to waste my time on things that have been figured out for many, many years now.

                                IMO the "almost 2010" issue is that some recipes which have been made available to the Dreamweaver user community over the course of the recent years have (for whatever reason) failed to get adopted as "industry standard" solutions in general. The MX Kollection/ADDT framework regretfully didn´t make its way there despite the strengths it has/had, and it´s maybe even questionable whether the SPRY framework will get there, considering the fact that it´s still tagged as "prerelease" and has not been significantly updated since approx. 1,5 years now. I really don´t hope that the MX Kollection/ADDT history will repeat itself for SPRY, but such signals are clearly not confidence-building.

                                 

                                things that have been figured out for many, many years now

                                ...will have to stand the test of time in an ever-changing marketplace though, and I think that many DW users tend to get caught in their own trap by putting their eggs in just one basket and forget to ask themselves if the DW behaviour driven framework they´re using is of real significance *outside* the Dreamweaver world.

                                 

                                Just my 2 ct.

                                 

                                Cheers,

                                Günter

                                • 13. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                  loquela

                                  I'm a bit confused what all the fuss is about. If you have CS4 and you have ADDT 1.0.1 then you have the latest version and all the benefits that come with it. If Adobe simply stop selling it now what do you lose? You still have the software, you have these forums? Just because Adobe desides to discontinue the product, they are not taking away your copy from you. I just don't get it.

                                   

                                  I'm an intermediate programmer and I have found the ADDT great for getting things done quick and dirty. Saved me a lot of time and made me a lot of money. I'm very grateful. But as I evolve as a developer, I realise ADDTs limitations. It's heavy, inflexible and ineficient. I find it's output over bulky and difficult to scan. ADDT is great for novices and hobbiest but once you learn to type at a reasonable pace and you start to understand the php programming langaguage a little, ADDT eventually does not in fact save that much time at all. It really is a false economy.

                                   

                                  As I am not a hardcore coder, I turned to cake php. Its a framework and not a push-button, drag-and-drop tool like addt. It provides libraries and classes and forces you into a very structured and lean programming design pattern. For somebody who is serious about programming effecient, secure and robust applications, it has huge advantage on coding raw by hand. If you are the type of web creator (note the absence of 'programmer') that likes buttons and swtiches to do the work for you then it won't be your cup of tea. HauteJordo, if you already have CS4 with ADDT 1.0.1 then I would say stick with it (or CS3 with 1.0). Another place to look though is dmszone, they have a load of really useful Dreamweaver plugins. Not sure how up-to-date they are these days.

                                   

                                  Reading through these posts is a really funny. People have spent so much time writing about how much better ADDT is than hand-coding because of the time it saves. I bet if you added up all that time writing these posts and invested it innstead on learning php, you would find much greater success and you wouldn't living at the mercy of Adobe.

                                   

                                  I love the comment about Igniter and how it must be better because it has video tutorials! That kind of sums it all up for me. ADDT is clearly for people who like picture books, while serious coding or the use of quality framewrorks must be more suited to people who can read.

                                  • 14. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                    loquela Level 1

                                    I think that many DW users tend to get caught in their own trap by putting their eggs in just one basket and forget to ask themselves if the DW behaviour driven framework they´re using is of real significance *outside* the Dreamweaver world.

                                    This a an excellent point Gunter. And relatively speaking, the Dreamweaver world is a very tiny one.

                                     

                                    But it is so easily done because Macromedia/Adobe have made things so easy for people. They provide the same comfort that Microsoft do. And that is great when the world revolves around them. But as we know, with the rise of open source solutions in all areas, those who have restricted their worlds to Microsoft and Adobe in the past are going to find themselves very lost and alone in the near future.

                                    • 15. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                      Günter Schenk Level 4

                                      loquela wrote:

                                       

                                      I'm a bit confused what all the fuss is about. If you have CS4 and you have ADDT 1.0.1 then you have the latest version and all the benefits that come with it. If Adobe simply stop selling it now what do you lose? You still have the software, you have these forums? Just because Adobe desides to discontinue the product, they are not taking away your copy from you. I just don't get it.

                                      well said :-)

                                       

                                      Here in Germany we have a saying which could be translated to "better an ending with horror than horrow without end". The persistent "horror" we´ve all had to struggle with over the last 2 years was the total lack of official support plus Adobe´s blatant disinclination to invest into ADDT´s future at all, which drove users nuts for a very good reason -- to me the current state (the discontinuation) is far more acceptable, because...

                                       

                                      a) I know what I have, and I know what I´ll not get in the future

                                      b) it allows me to put ADDT benefits and flaws in a greater perspective, means I know when it may still be appropriate to use it, but I also know that I´ll have to accomodate myself to other solutions when needed -- it´s not that I didn´t do that in the past, but getting more flexible yourself has now become more important than ever.

                                       

                                      As I am not a hardcore coder, I turned to cake php. Its a framework and not a push-button, drag-and-drop tool like addt. It provides libraries and classes and forces you into a very structured and lean programming design pattern

                                      well, ADDT is a framework too after all, and it should be mentioned that many of the "push button, drag and drop" server behaviours which were built on top of it did not capture all of the underlying functionality -- those who took a closer look at ADDT´s PHP classes know that there´s much more available to experiment with, but the flaw is: all that extra stuff (e.g. unused classes) has never been documented.

                                       

                                      I love the comment about Igniter and how it must be better because it has video tutorials! That kind of sums it all up for me. ADDT is clearly for people who like picture books, while serious coding or the use of quality framewrorks must be more suited to people who can read.

                                      both the inexperienced and the experienced ADDT users now need to migrate to "the next framework", and I think it´s absolutely warrantable to look for something which gives you an "easy access" to whatever comes next -- even if I could consider myself a halfways "experienced" PHP code guy, I currently also prefer to e.g. get "convinced" by stuff like video tutorials, because...

                                       

                                      a) I don´t have the time to read all the manuals of framework x, y and z before deciding which of the many frameworks suit my workflow best

                                       

                                      b) it´s also very helpful to *see* how things are done, and the existance of well-done video tutorials will make certain things easier to me as well.

                                       

                                      Cheers,

                                      Günter

                                      • 16. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                        HauteJordo Level 1

                                        This should clarify things for you:

                                         

                                        1.  Yes, I would rather watch videos than read instructions. There's plenty of badly written instructions accompanying badly written software.  However, people tend to not waste their time shooting badly produced videos featuring bad instructions about bad software.  So, yes, How To videos can easily be deemed as an indicator of a better product.

                                         

                                        2.  ADDT is not a false economy.  It takes me less time doing things with ADDT than it does using other scripts including my own.  Moreover, I can strip out a lot of the 'heavy files' with relative ease.  And I get the combination of using the User Registration Wizard with the Query Builder so I can filter by the ADDT session variables.  Guess what?  I can do all of this on my own,  but I can do it (and maintain it) faster using ADDT than I can with other options.

                                         

                                        3.  More about saving time: No, my time is not better spent learning php.  Interakt used offer a great calendar tool completely integrated with Dreamweaver.  Now, it's your turn to tell me why I'm better off knowing how to convert dates from Gregorian to Julian and figuring out what today is, the first day of the month, the last day of the month, and whether or not it's a leap year, so I can print out a calendar than I am using Interakt's Calendar wizard.

                                         

                                        4.  So you're saying I should stick with CS4 and 1.0.  What do you reccommend I do after there's an update for CS4 which is incompatible with ADDT?  Maybe I can use CS3 when I want to use the Interakt Calendar, and CS4 when I want to use the Query Builder, and then install CS5 for everything I do afterwards.


                                        So I should really put the question back on you since you claim to have saved a lot of time and made a lot of money using ADDT.  What are you going to do after one of your clients who paid you for a site needs something changed?   Are you going to keep your system out of date so you can still use ADDT?  Or have you already migrated these sites to cake? Imagine an upgrade which is incompatible with ADDT arriving the day before you get a complex request from one of your clients. What do you tell your client? Maybe this will reduce your confusion and clarify what the fuss is about.

                                         

                                        Personally, I don't feel right starting new projects and using ADDT.  I spent a little time thinking I would write my own user reg system, but I found an open source one on Hot Scripts and it does all of the things I need and it's pretty easy to modify, so I'm retrofitting it so that I can use my existing queries and table structures with it.  I have to say, this system seems like 1 of a kind.  There's a lot more junk out there than stuff that's worth using.

                                         

                                        Some of the most experienced .Net developers I know watch videos on MSDN, so your points don't really fit with my experience working with technology and our website topped CNN for overall traffic last month.  

                                        • 17. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                          loquela Level 1

                                          Sure, it clarifies this: you would rather spend your time moaning about the demise of your favourite pacifier than actually learning php.

                                           

                                          Simply learn php and you have no more concerns about depending on frameworks. Your code would be both forwards and backwards compatible.  Sure the initial investment may give you a headache, but you have already spent as much energy in these forums as you would need to get up to speed with php.

                                           

                                          Thankfully, because I spent my time wisely learning php, I have no need to migrate from one framework to another, I just go into the code and make amendments or changes where necessary. If it's php, it's php. It doesn't matter to me what framework is used.

                                           

                                          ADDT will not be upgraded. So what? You can still use the version you have if you choose. You can use Cake if you choose, or Igniter, or Zend, or you can hand code from scratch. Makes no difference if choose to learn php.

                                           

                                          My point is simply this. Interakt and Adobe have provided a very helpful tool. There is absolutely nothing stopping you continuing to take advantage of it. The tool is still available for your use. So stop whining. You haven't lost anything

                                           

                                          Why not take an economists approach to the problem? Add up all the time you spend trawling and writing on these forums, the hours you consume searching for ready-made scripts and the time you invest in reviewing video tutorials, and imagine what you might gain if you converted all that time into the study of php. You would know the language fluently and would no longer be dependent on unreliable crutches.

                                           

                                          If you think all that is a waste of time, then I'm sure if you search YouTube you will find some useful HowTo php tutorials.

                                          • 18. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                            Neil Eisenberg Level 1

                                            Great!  So let's see, I've invested about 38 minutes so far on these 

                                            forums, so I could just learn PHP in 38 minutes!  Wow.  Fantastic  idea.  I cant

                                            believe I never thought of that.

                                             

                                             

                                            In a message dated 5/26/2009 8:19:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

                                            forums@adobe.com writes:

                                             

                                            http://forums.adobe.com/message/1991155#1991155

                                             

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                                            • 19. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                              loquela Level 1

                                              Now you are just being silly.

                                              • 20. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                Neil Eisenberg Level 1

                                                Yeah, I realize I'm being silly, but its also silly to equate the time spent making a few posts to the time it would take to learn PHP to the point of being able to create complete content managed applications etc. in the same amount of time as it takes to do it with the ADDT tools.   Even if I became an expert I couldnt do it as fast.   In my world I need to be able to deliver high end applications for low prices, and quickly.

                                                 

                                                I still think Dreamweaver should have these things built in.  The fact that its even a "toolkit" at all seems odd to me...since these seem to be core functions... but whatever.  Since I havent yet gotten CS4, I dont really know to what extent some of these tools HAVE been incorporated, so its hard for me to speak to that... but for now, I'll continue to use what I have, because thedy work well for what I'm doing.

                                                 

                                                My worry is in the future when the code produced by the current tools doesnt work properly with new browser releases.  This is when things will become difficult.   Your comments that we can always use the tools we have works for now, but not necessarily in the future.   Many of us have invested heavily in the tools, and I agree that we have maybe become too dependent on them, but I also know those of us who use them can produce higher end applications faster than those who have to do it by hand.  Thats just a fact.  No one is saying that it isnt better to know the ins and outs of PHP, but it is not necessarily the most cost effective way to produce a high end site.

                                                 

                                                All that aside... it is what it is, and its time to start studying PHP.

                                                • 21. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                  loquela Level 1

                                                  I'm not suggesting you learn php to the extent that you can do everything by hand. I don't. I don't know a single developer who would build an entire application by hand. That way madness certainly does lie. I use all the frameworks, ready-made code I can get my hands on. But a little ( or a lot depending on the individual) time spent learning the principles means you save time in the end and means you are not dependent on any one framework; you can understand what they are doing and you can fine tune them to your specific requirements. You can then adapt your knowledge to any of the frameworks.

                                                   

                                                  All that aside... it is what it is, and its time to start studying PHP.

                                                   

                                                  You will be very glad that you did. And you will wonder what all the ADDT fuss was all about. You will feel a great sense of liberation. Good luck.

                                                  • 22. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                    HauteJordo Level 1

                                                    Ok..I'll take an economists approach to the problem.  Spending time on the forum whining about the loss of my favorite pacifier (and, yes, it is my favorite) is not a substitute good for time spent learning php.  So there's no opportunity cost.  Economics is about comparing apples to apples.  I appreciate your rather Schumpeterian concept of learning my way out of a dependence on ADDT, but I'm not that sophisticated.  Ask me whether the user system I found on hotscripts is now integrated with the rest of my queries which originaly filtered info by using ADDT session variables. Then ask me how long it took (about an hour).  Then ask me whether its more useful than using the ADDT wizard (which takes five minutes).  It does the same thing.  Then...figure out whether you're telling me to learn php or to keep using ADDT.  Which is it? Both?  I already indicated I'm not using ADDT anymore and I'm using what I can find so that I can support it without interference or reliance on Adobe. So why do you keep insisting I learn php?

                                                    • 23. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                      Günter Schenk Level 4

                                                      nelz55 wrote:

                                                       

                                                      I still think Dreamweaver should have these things built in.  The fact that its even a "toolkit" at all seems odd to me...since these seem to be core functions...

                                                       

                                                      one reason for ADDT´s minor significance (in regards to the regular DW users) might be that most advanced features it offers were probably "too much" for the vast majority of users who...

                                                       

                                                      a) don´t use DW as PHP development tool at all or just to a little extent

                                                      b) consider DW´s native server behaviours to be sufficient for the basic applications they want to develop.

                                                       

                                                      I don´t think it´s easy to dissect ADDT set of features and determine component x,y or z as DW´s "core feature", because the demands (and requirement levels) are just too diverse. Well, if I had a say in the future development of DW, I´d suggest to incorporate ADDT´s "Query Builder" component, because this one would IMO undoubtedly add a big value to server side apps developers in general

                                                       

                                                      Since I havent yet gotten CS4, I dont really know to what extent some of these tools HAVE been incorporated.

                                                      nothing has been incorporated, and the DW CS 4 server behaviours are as basic as before.

                                                       

                                                      Cheers,

                                                      Günter

                                                      • 24. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                        Purple Edge Level 1

                                                        "nothing has been incorporated, and the DW CS 4 server behaviours are as basic as before."

                                                         

                                                        Which just confirms that Adobe have given up on web development tools, and we need to accept that and move on.

                                                        • 25. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                          HauteJordo Level 1

                                                          Concluding Adobe has given up on web development tools is misleading.

                                                           

                                                          Admittedly, I'm a fan of ADDT, but spry offers a lot of the same solutions ADDT offered, but a different approach has to be taken.  Morever, the quickness of the wizards is gone.

                                                           

                                                          Once a person gets past outputting a recordset in xml (something DW won't do for you), it's really difficult to say that Adobe has given up on web development.  As far as I'm concerned, I can do more with spry/php than I can with ADDT alone.

                                                           

                                                          With ADDT, I needed a table to store all of my info.  But with Spry I can get it from an XML file, which I can create by hand.  And I can have a client edit it.  So, I consider this an added flexibility of using spry.

                                                           

                                                          Also, I can handle filtering data differently with Spry than I did with ADDT.

                                                           

                                                          Spry validation doesn't require any XML, just apply the behavior to different form fields.  I find editting and formatting the spry validation more flexible than ADDTs form validation.  ADDT was quicker, but spry validation is more flexible when it comes to editting the css because the validation isn't as tightly incorporated with the form field being validated.

                                                           

                                                          DW is missing the transaction engine.  Bummer, but not the end of the world.

                                                           

                                                          DW is also missing the user registration wizard, which really is a huge minus.

                                                           

                                                          ADDT didn't solve all my problems to begin with.  Neither does spry.  Jquery, YUI, not to mention JSON and PEAR all have aspects which make them worth using.  But even jquery has shown demos on its site which were broken.

                                                           

                                                          With any luck, Adobe will work to bring more functionality under the umbrella of an easy to use wizard--it's the difference between getting out of the car and starting it with a hand crank vs today's push button starters. Technology is supposed to make people's lives easier, including the lives of people who build websites.

                                                           

                                                          Laboring under the idea that some things are better done by hand ignores some very obvious boundaries to this idea.

                                                          • 26. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                            Purple Edge Level 1

                                                            When was the last update to the Spry framework? Where is the Spry tree menu that they were working on in 2006?

                                                             

                                                            Sorry, Spry is dead too.

                                                             

                                                            It's time to move on.

                                                            • 27. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                              HauteJordo Level 1

                                                              I just said I'm using jquery when I cannot use spry.

                                                               

                                                              So...where are you reccommending I move onto? It sounds like someplace I'm already at.  It's like reading the post from someone telling me to learn PHP after I solved the problem I was having...using PHP.

                                                              • 28. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                Günter Schenk Level 4

                                                                HauteJordo wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Concluding Adobe has given up on web development tools is misleading.

                                                                 

                                                                Technology is supposed to make people's lives easier, including the lives of people who build websites.

                                                                 

                                                                Laboring under the idea that some things are better done by hand ignores some very obvious boundaries to this idea.

                                                                 

                                                                I also don´t think Adobe would dare to stop supporting server side development features completely, because they play a significant role after all. However I think that Adobe has decided to no longer "talk" users into using one particular framework (ADDT) which - loosely said - didn´t make it for whatever reason.

                                                                 

                                                                Spry validation doesn't require any XML, just apply the behavior to different form fields.  I find editting and formatting the spry validation more flexible than ADDTs form validation.  ADDT was quicker, but spry validation is more flexible when it comes to editting the css because the validation isn't as tightly incorporated with the form field being validated

                                                                 

                                                                ADDT´s validation components work both client side (javascript)- and server side (PHP), whereas SPRY is client side only and fails when javascript has been turned off in the browser -- that said, all those advantages you mention when using the SPRY validation features will still require an additional server side validation layer in order to be of any use.

                                                                 

                                                                Technology is supposed to make people's lives easier, including the lives of people who build websites.

                                                                It´s maybe not the "technology" (say, PHP, say, AJAX) which IMO nowaydays makes it hard to provide one particular "push button starter" product like ADDT is/was while hoping this tool will be capable to cover the the needs of a vast majority of users. Those technologies have undergone somewhat drastic changes within just a few years and ever since ADDT´s predecessor "MX Kollection" saw the light of day -- way back then PHP 5 was just a vague draft, and SPRY didn´t exist as well.

                                                                 

                                                                Tools like ADDT are based on application development frameworks, and any such framework will only be of long-term use when it´s constantly updated in order to incorporate the latest "trends" respectively quickly discard those behind which failed to become embraced by the user community -- one example: evers since SPRY was released, ADDT users did increasingly ask for getting the SPRY validation features integrated into ADDT´s forms, what just didn´t work because the additional validation rules were ignored when pressing the "submit" button .

                                                                 

                                                                In order to make this possible, the whole framewok would have to become significantly rewritten in order to have ADDT´s "submit form" feature detect and incorporate the user-defined SPRY validation patterns -- and even if the developers would have done that, it´s even not clear *if* SPRY will still be of significance in, say, 2 years from now or if the user community will turn towards e.g.Jquery and - consequently - expect to get this AJAX framework incorporated into ADDT. What if this happens ? Rewriting ADDT once more ?

                                                                 

                                                                That said, we´re not talking about one particular "technology". Developers may nowadays select from a rich variety of "technological components" which (except SPRY) were evolved outside Adobe´s sphere of influence and which undergo a varying degree of popularity.

                                                                 

                                                                Laboring under the idea that some things are better done by hand ignores some very obvious boundaries to this idea

                                                                 

                                                                Personally I´d say that the ability to do things by hand in addition to mastering a given framework is something which will help you overcome the boundaries of that framework and could minimize your dependency on corporate-policy decisions -- it´s not a "either friend or foe" situation, both qualities can happily co-exist and are not mutually exclusive. Who wins in the end ? It should be *you* on any account :-)

                                                                 

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Günter

                                                                • 29. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                  HauteJordo Level 1

                                                                  That's a great point about spry only being client-side...I prob would have ignored the need for *real* server-side validation.

                                                                   

                                                                  But now I won't..darn it.   Maybe I can find something in the exchange....

                                                                  • 30. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                    HauteJordo Level 1

                                                                    Another thing I realized last night is that spry validation seems to be on the heavy side.

                                                                     

                                                                    I could see myself dispensing with using it altogether but I'm not at that point yet.

                                                                     

                                                                    The good news is, the replacement user system I'm cooking up is faster than the ADDT one.

                                                                    • 31. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                      Günter Schenk Level 4

                                                                      HauteJordo wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      That's a great point about spry only being client-side...I prob would have ignored the need for *real* server-side validation.

                                                                       

                                                                      But now I won't..darn it.   Maybe I can find something in the exchange....

                                                                      I haven´t used this one yet, but from the specifications (e.g. both client-side and server-side validation, conditional validations) it looks as if the VDaemon PHP Form Validation library might be worth giving a try, all the more you can obtain a Dreamweaver extension as well to make things easier.

                                                                       

                                                                      Cheers,

                                                                      Günter

                                                                      • 32. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                        HauteJordo Level 1

                                                                        that validation pack looks good, but I'm not wild about the pricing for it.  Plus, it requires addition items installed...

                                                                         

                                                                        I tried one out over the weekend and it seems to work ok.

                                                                         

                                                                        After working with the open source login script I found...I'm less wild about it.

                                                                         

                                                                        Any chance you have an "unofficial" opinion on whether adobe will release an 'incompatibility' update for CS4 or the next version of dreamweaver?

                                                                         

                                                                        I have a new site to put up...tempted to just use ADDT and be done with it in record setting time.

                                                                        • 33. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                          DwFAQ Level 4

                                                                          No too wild on the price... it's free.

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                          Starting from version 3.1.0 VDaemon is available under a free license.
                                                                          • 34. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                            HauteJordo Level 1

                                                                            Sure enough. Today it's free.


                                                                            So with the extension there's no restriction on the number of domains on which it is installed?

                                                                            • 35. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                              Purple Edge Level 1

                                                                              Why wouldn't you use ADDT, the code is still valid. It just means that if Adobe release a CS5 you might not be able to upgrade - probably Adobe's loss more than yours. I've stopped buying Adobe upgrades.

                                                                               

                                                                              I can't see why vdaemon is any better than ADDT, there is no guarantee of a long life for this product either.

                                                                               

                                                                              When I move on from ADDT it will be to something that doesn't rely on DW, which might be a case for using vdaemon?

                                                                              • 36. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                                HauteJordo Level 1

                                                                                It's more of a business decision than a technical one.  The sites I build are small potatoes for people looking to save a few bucks.  So it was easier before to say "This is how your site is going to be built, so if someone else maintains it in the future, they need ADDT."  But now...it's "Hey I built your site with a discontinued product."   Doesn't fly so well.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I figure I'll keep using it because it really does save insane amounts of time and then count on some better replacement cropping up in the future...the vdaemon thing is a perfect example...the price dropped to free the day after I checked out the site.

                                                                                • 37. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                                  Günter Schenk Level 4

                                                                                  Purple Edge wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I can't see why vdaemon is any better than ADDT, there is no guarantee of a long life for this product either.

                                                                                  Again, I haven´t used it yet (...although it´s tempting ), however as far as I understand, vdaemon can be applied to any form, whereas ADDT´s fom validation routines are restricted to ADDT forms. "No guarantee for a long life..." ? No vendor will ever guarantee you that, but the vdeamon library is around for quite some years now (at least since 2005) and apparently under constant development, so there´s at least a chance it will not vanish over night ;-)

                                                                                   

                                                                                  When I move on from ADDT it will be to something that doesn't rely on DW, which might be a case for using vdaemon?

                                                                                  vdaemon is basically a libray (which is now free) with an - optional - DW extension (which is not free) built on top of it. Haven´t crawled through all the available online documentation yet, but any well-documented library can also be used without a DW extension.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Cheers,
                                                                                  Günter

                                                                                  • 38. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                                    Günter Schenk Level 4

                                                                                    HauteJordo wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Any chance you have an "unofficial" opinion on whether adobe will release an 'incompatibility' update for CS4 or the next version of dreamweaver?

                                                                                    I don´t have the slightest clue about that, sorry

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Cheers,

                                                                                    Günter

                                                                                    • 39. Re: ADDT..moving on. PHP frameworks
                                                                                      Keesh7663

                                                                                      I for one am an advocate to ADDT.  Several years ago i didn't know squat about web programming.  But I bought DW MX2004 and shortly thereafeter got the ADDT and studied it.  ADDT helped me learn how to code.  If I would've grabbed a book on php I probably would've given up, but ADDT gave me onhand knowledge.  I don't use it much anymore, but it helped me to learn to code.  I for one believe that ADDT should hang around for at leat that reason.  There are many novices out there that want to learn to code and should have the continuing support of Adobe ADDT without having to use a version of DW that is outdated.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      If Adobe wants to eliminate ADDT, then they should should work all of it into the program.  Eliminate the add-on but keep ALL of the funtionality.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Just my thoughts.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      ~Keesh