24 Replies Latest reply on Sep 11, 2008 5:22 AM by Newsgroup_User

    I didn't know that!

    matthew stuart Level 2
      Over the last few minutes, I have been updating my limited knowledge of SEO :-) and I am stunned to find that search engines don't use keywords any more!

      When did this happen?

      I would always tend to use a number of things, such as keywords, description, titles, and above all content of the page. I also try to ensure that the title of the page is in a h1 tag on the page. Invariably the title and content are database driven content, and I guess the description and keywords could be too, but does this have any effect on the search engines being able to rank a page well?

      I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a page, but I have seen some sites using something like 'revisit', but from what I recall, that only works with one small canadian town based search engine, so, what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?

      Stunned. You can tell I do a lot of print based design work can't you!

      Mat
        • 1. Re: I didn't know that!
          Level 7
          > When did this happen?

          It started when porn sites began abusing the meta keyword tag, I think. And
          as soon as somewith half a brain realized that it made no sense to confer a
          ranking on a page based on an arbitrary list of keywords that may have no
          relationship to the content that is actually on the page.

          > Invariably the title and content are
          > database driven content, and I guess the description and keywords could be
          > too,
          > but does this have any effect on the search engines being able to rank a
          > page
          > well?

          No. The spiders have no clue that they are looking at dynamic content.
          They see exactly what you see when you do VIEW | Source.

          > I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a
          > page

          This is true but there's lots of depth and meaning buried in 'keywords'.
          What that is usually taken to mean is the keyword density in title, page
          headings, linked filenames, etc., and not keyword meta tags. You are also
          leaving out incoming links as a contributor to the ranking....

          > what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?

          As far as I know, metadata will have virtually no impact on your ranking.

          --
          Murray --- ICQ 71997575
          Adobe Community Expert
          (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
          ==================
          http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
          http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
          ==================


          "matthew stuart" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
          news:ga8l9t$en7$1@forums.macromedia.com...
          > Over the last few minutes, I have been updating my limited knowledge of
          > SEO :-)
          > and I am stunned to find that search engines don't use keywords any more!
          >
          > When did this happen?
          >
          > I would always tend to use a number of things, such as keywords,
          > description,
          > titles, and above all content of the page. I also try to ensure that the
          > title
          > of the page is in a h1 tag on the page. Invariably the title and content
          > are
          > database driven content, and I guess the description and keywords could be
          > too,
          > but does this have any effect on the search engines being able to rank a
          > page
          > well?
          >
          > I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a
          > page, but I have seen some sites using something like 'revisit', but from
          > what
          > I recall, that only works with one small canadian town based search
          > engine, so,
          > what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?
          >
          > Stunned. You can tell I do a lot of print based design work can't you!
          >
          > Mat
          >

          • 2. Re: I didn't know that!
            matthew stuart Level 2
            Thanks Murray.

            > You are also leaving out incoming links as a contributor to the ranking....

            What do you mean by this? Is it the amount of sites that are linked to a particular page?

            If so, how do you get that many sites to link to your page other than using some thing like adwords? Would I be looking at some sort of affiliate exercise.

            I did read that the more a page is clicked on the more likely it is going to be ranked highly. That's a kind of vicious circle really isn't it. Any page that ranks highly will get clicked therefore strengthening subsequent ranking results. And likewise any page poorly ranked is never going to be found, clicked on and then rise up the ranks! Is this also a factor in ranking?

            Thanks

            Mat
            • 3. Re: I didn't know that!
              Level 7
              matthew stuart wrote:
              > Over the last few minutes, I have been updating my limited knowledge of SEO :-)
              > and I am stunned to find that search engines don't use keywords any more!
              >
              > When did this happen?
              >
              > I would always tend to use a number of things, such as keywords, description,
              > titles, and above all content of the page. I also try to ensure that the title
              > of the page is in a h1 tag on the page. Invariably the title and content are
              > database driven content, and I guess the description and keywords could be too,
              > but does this have any effect on the search engines being able to rank a page
              > well?
              >
              > I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a
              > page, but I have seen some sites using something like 'revisit', but from what
              > I recall, that only works with one small canadian town based search engine, so,
              > what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?
              >
              > Stunned. You can tell I do a lot of print based design work can't you!

              I was recently shown this site, you may like it too:
              http://justcreativedesign.com/2008/06/09/10-seo-rules-for-designers/

              Dooza
              • 4. Re: I didn't know that!
                Level 7
                matthew stuart wrote:
                > Thanks Murray.
                >
                > > You are also leaving out incoming links as a contributor to the ranking....
                >
                > What do you mean by this? Is it the amount of sites that are linked to a
                > particular page?
                >
                > If so, how do you get that many sites to link to your page other than using
                > some thing like adwords? Would I be looking at some sort of affiliate exercise.
                >
                > I did read that the more a page is clicked on the more likely it is going to
                > be ranked highly. That's a kind of vicious circle really isn't it. Any page
                > that ranks highly will get clicked therefore strengthening subsequent ranking
                > results. And likewise any page poorly ranked is never going to be found,
                > clicked on and then rise up the ranks! Is this also a factor in ranking?

                The links you are after are called organic links, ones where sites chose
                to link to your site out of choice, as they feel that your content is
                relevant to their content. The more you have the better, but if you pay
                for the links, or have your link on a site that has nothing do with your
                site it can have a negative impact on your ratings.

                Here is an example, I have a personal blog on my home page, www dot
                dooza dot tv, and its powered by Blogger, which is owned by Google. I
                can post a blog entry on a subject with a link and it can be picked up
                very very quickly in Google. I did a test once with my works website,
                using the keywords stage lighting, and for a few days my site came up
                above my works site, then google twigged and it dropped by several
                pages... we were trying to find ways to increase our presence on the
                keywords and found out the hard way that google does pay attention to
                what your doing.

                I get referrals from Google for the strangest things: like bacon sarnie,
                tv catchup, great british spring.

                Dooza
                • 5. Re: I didn't know that!
                  Level 7
                  > When did this happen?
                  http://tinyurl.com/63nsnv
                  Note that article was written May 2002
                  --

                  Walt


                  "matthew stuart" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                  news:ga8l9t$en7$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                  > Over the last few minutes, I have been updating my limited knowledge of
                  > SEO :-)
                  > and I am stunned to find that search engines don't use keywords any more!
                  >
                  > When did this happen?
                  >
                  > I would always tend to use a number of things, such as keywords,
                  > description,
                  > titles, and above all content of the page. I also try to ensure that the
                  > title
                  > of the page is in a h1 tag on the page. Invariably the title and content
                  > are
                  > database driven content, and I guess the description and keywords could be
                  > too,
                  > but does this have any effect on the search engines being able to rank a
                  > page
                  > well?
                  >
                  > I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a
                  > page, but I have seen some sites using something like 'revisit', but from
                  > what
                  > I recall, that only works with one small canadian town based search
                  > engine, so,
                  > what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?
                  >
                  > Stunned. You can tell I do a lot of print based design work can't you!
                  >
                  > Mat
                  >


                  • 6. Re: I didn't know that!
                    Level 7
                    When I first became a Macromedia Evangelist back in the dark ages,
                    Macromedia put a link to my site on their website. The impact of that link
                    alone on my site's rankings was astounding. A link from a highly ranked and
                    highly trafficed site into your site is worth its weight in gold.

                    --
                    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                    Adobe Community Expert
                    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                    ==================
                    http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                    http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                    ==================


                    "Dooza" <doozadooza@gmail.com> wrote in message
                    news:ga8pcf$jks$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                    > matthew stuart wrote:
                    >> Thanks Murray.
                    >>
                    >> > You are also leaving out incoming links as a contributor to the
                    >> ranking....
                    >>
                    >> What do you mean by this? Is it the amount of sites that are linked to a
                    >> particular page?
                    >>
                    >> If so, how do you get that many sites to link to your page other than
                    >> using some thing like adwords? Would I be looking at some sort of
                    >> affiliate exercise.
                    >>
                    >> I did read that the more a page is clicked on the more likely it is
                    >> going to be ranked highly. That's a kind of vicious circle really isn't
                    >> it. Any page that ranks highly will get clicked therefore strengthening
                    >> subsequent ranking results. And likewise any page poorly ranked is never
                    >> going to be found, clicked on and then rise up the ranks! Is this also a
                    >> factor in ranking?
                    >
                    > The links you are after are called organic links, ones where sites chose
                    > to link to your site out of choice, as they feel that your content is
                    > relevant to their content. The more you have the better, but if you pay
                    > for the links, or have your link on a site that has nothing do with your
                    > site it can have a negative impact on your ratings.
                    >
                    > Here is an example, I have a personal blog on my home page, www dot dooza
                    > dot tv, and its powered by Blogger, which is owned by Google. I can post a
                    > blog entry on a subject with a link and it can be picked up very very
                    > quickly in Google. I did a test once with my works website, using the
                    > keywords stage lighting, and for a few days my site came up above my works
                    > site, then google twigged and it dropped by several pages... we were
                    > trying to find ways to increase our presence on the keywords and found out
                    > the hard way that google does pay attention to what your doing.
                    >
                    > I get referrals from Google for the strangest things: like bacon sarnie,
                    > tv catchup, great british spring.
                    >
                    > Dooza

                    • 7. Re: I didn't know that!
                      Level 7
                      > I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a
                      > page, but I have seen some sites using something like 'revisit', but from
                      > what
                      > I recall, that only works with one small canadian town based search
                      > engine, so,
                      > what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?
                      >

                      Metadata isn't going to help you. What counts is content, incoming links and
                      the search engine's perception of the authority of the site. For a quick
                      lesson in SEO run this search on google
                      http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+buy+cheap+Viagra+online

                      A lot of sites would give their right arm to rank for that phrase but the #1
                      result is from the blog of a senior Google employee who happens to mention
                      that phrase once in a blog post - obviously he doesn't have anything to do
                      with selling Viagra and presumably he's not too thrilled to have that rank.
                      The authority of his site leads Google to rank him above all the sites that
                      are trying everything to rank for the phrase. Of course that means when
                      you're starting a new site, with zero authority and no links, it's going to
                      be hard to get going.

                      The key is something called the long tail, meaning rarely searched for
                      phrases. As a rough guide a successful site selling say blue widgets will
                      get about 30% of their traffic from 3 or 4 high traffic keywords and the
                      other 70% from phrases that only deliver 1 or 2 visits per month each but
                      taken together amount to a lot of traffic. So start with a base keyword, say
                      "blue widgets" a very important concept in search is intent - ie what the
                      searcher actually wants to do when he types something into Google. Does he
                      want to buy them, research them, read about them, check out the competition
                      etc etc. We only want people who's query indicates an intention to buy, so
                      think of every word that indicates an intention to buy - cheap, discount, on
                      sale, free delivery, next day delivery etc etc then put those type of words
                      in your content. If you're outside the US try and rank for your country -
                      for example "blue widgets UK" is going to be a lot easier to rank for than
                      "blue widgets" and will give some nice traffic. You're not going to rank for
                      high traffic phrases like "buy blue widgets" you're going to get the guy who
                      searches for say "buy cheap blue widgets with next day delivery in UK"
                      nobody's going to actively target that phrase because it's so low traffic
                      but if you mention those words on your page you've got a fair chance of
                      ranking. Mix up your intent words properly and you'll get a lot of traffic
                      for long tail phrases like this and of course every person that sees your
                      site, as well as being a potential customer, may have the potential to link
                      to you. As you get the site in front of more people, you'll get more links
                      and more chance of ranking for the big money short tail phrases. The idea is
                      you're not going to be checking your rank on google every day for "blue
                      widgets" you're going to study analytics and find the long tail keywords
                      that are bringing you traffic. Of course you could actively seek out links
                      as well but that's a whole other story :-)

                      Bottom line - using the long tail effectively and actively seeking links are
                      the key to getting results from search.

                      Cheers,
                      Jon


                      • 8. Re: I didn't know that!
                        matthew stuart Level 2
                        Here's a thought then, I usually use the record id field as part of my url, but if meaningful links work, would it improve rankings if I used the title of the article as the url?

                        EG: An article entitled How to cook would become the url www.mysite.com/how%20to%20cook.asp I guess.

                        Mat
                        • 9. Re: I didn't know that!
                          Level 7
                          > EG: An article entitled How to cook would become the url
                          > www.mysite.com/how%20to%20cook.asp I guess.
                          >

                          Very good idea, but it should be
                          www.mysite.com/how-to-cook.asp
                          Use dashes for spaces. If you have to identify the article by an ID then
                          www.mysite.com/1234-how-to-cook.asp
                          would be OK.

                          Cheers,
                          Jon


                          • 10. Re: I didn't know that!
                            Level 7
                            Wow - that's a tremendous post, Jon! Thank you so much....

                            --
                            Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                            Adobe Community Expert
                            (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                            ==================
                            http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                            http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                            ==================


                            "Jon Spivey" <jon@NotThis-Nisusnewmedia.com> wrote in message
                            news:ga8r25$lp3$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                            >> I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a
                            >> page, but I have seen some sites using something like 'revisit', but from
                            >> what
                            >> I recall, that only works with one small canadian town based search
                            >> engine, so,
                            >> what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?
                            >>
                            >
                            > Metadata isn't going to help you. What counts is content, incoming links
                            > and the search engine's perception of the authority of the site. For a
                            > quick lesson in SEO run this search on google
                            > http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+buy+cheap+Viagra+online
                            >
                            > A lot of sites would give their right arm to rank for that phrase but the
                            > #1 result is from the blog of a senior Google employee who happens to
                            > mention that phrase once in a blog post - obviously he doesn't have
                            > anything to do with selling Viagra and presumably he's not too thrilled
                            > to have that rank. The authority of his site leads Google to rank him
                            > above all the sites that are trying everything to rank for the phrase. Of
                            > course that means when you're starting a new site, with zero authority and
                            > no links, it's going to be hard to get going.
                            >
                            > The key is something called the long tail, meaning rarely searched for
                            > phrases. As a rough guide a successful site selling say blue widgets will
                            > get about 30% of their traffic from 3 or 4 high traffic keywords and the
                            > other 70% from phrases that only deliver 1 or 2 visits per month each but
                            > taken together amount to a lot of traffic. So start with a base keyword,
                            > say "blue widgets" a very important concept in search is intent - ie what
                            > the searcher actually wants to do when he types something into Google.
                            > Does he want to buy them, research them, read about them, check out the
                            > competition etc etc. We only want people who's query indicates an
                            > intention to buy, so think of every word that indicates an intention to
                            > buy - cheap, discount, on sale, free delivery, next day delivery etc etc
                            > then put those type of words in your content. If you're outside the US try
                            > and rank for your country - for example "blue widgets UK" is going to be a
                            > lot easier to rank for than "blue widgets" and will give some nice
                            > traffic. You're not going to rank for high traffic phrases like "buy blue
                            > widgets" you're going to get the guy who searches for say "buy cheap blue
                            > widgets with next day delivery in UK" nobody's going to actively target
                            > that phrase because it's so low traffic but if you mention those words on
                            > your page you've got a fair chance of ranking. Mix up your intent words
                            > properly and you'll get a lot of traffic for long tail phrases like this
                            > and of course every person that sees your site, as well as being a
                            > potential customer, may have the potential to link to you. As you get the
                            > site in front of more people, you'll get more links and more chance of
                            > ranking for the big money short tail phrases. The idea is you're not going
                            > to be checking your rank on google every day for "blue widgets" you're
                            > going to study analytics and find the long tail keywords that are bringing
                            > you traffic. Of course you could actively seek out links as well but
                            > that's a whole other story :-)
                            >
                            > Bottom line - using the long tail effectively and actively seeking links
                            > are the key to getting results from search.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Jon
                            >
                            >

                            • 11. Re: I didn't know that!
                              Level 7
                              On 10 Sep 2008 in macromedia.dreamweaver, Jon Spivey wrote:

                              > http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+buy+cheap+Viagra+online
                              >
                              > A lot of sites would give their right arm to rank for that phrase

                              Different part of their anatomy, no?

                              --
                              Joe Makowiec
                              http://makowiec.net/
                              Email: http://makowiec.net/contact.php
                              • 12. Re: I didn't know that!
                                Level 7

                                "Murray *ACE*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
                                news:ga8lou$f9j$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                >> When did this happen?
                                >
                                > As far as I know, metadata will have virtually no impact on your ranking.

                                Actually, Murray, i believe it still does... but much, much less than the
                                early days and the porn sites example you mentioned. Apparently, now they
                                corelate. Meaning, if the keywords in the meta tag match words in the text
                                of the page then they get a weightage. How much is a question mark. Also, as
                                you said, links... links to your site push your rating up.

                                One option i read about was to have an invisible or 'off page' div / layer
                                with keywords... but, again, there was talk of the search engines factoring
                                that in adversely.

                                FWIW...



                                • 13. Re: I didn't know that!
                                  Level 7
                                  .oO(matthew stuart)

                                  >Here's a thought then, I usually use the record id field as part of my url, but
                                  >if meaningful links work, would it improve rankings if I used the title of the
                                  >article as the url?

                                  When it comes to URIs, your primary goal should not be a good ranking,
                                  but usability. Meaningful URIs are much more userfriendly than technical
                                  ones with cryptical IDs and the like. Of course as a side effect proper
                                  URIs which contain some keywords may also improve the SE ranking.

                                  > EG: An article entitled How to cook would become the url
                                  >www.mysite.com/how%20to%20cook.asp I guess.

                                  Better (as already mentioned by Jon):

                                  http://www.example.com/how-to-cook.asp

                                  Even better (cleaner, shorter, more reliable, no unnecessary stuff):

                                  http://example.com/how-to-cook

                                  For good URI design you should have a look at

                                  Cool URIs don't change
                                  http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

                                  Micha
                                  • 14. Re: I didn't know that!
                                    Level 7
                                    Mathew...

                                    Basically from what everyone has said and what little i've gathered:

                                    1/ Keeping your site honest and relevant helps
                                    2/ Having links to your site helps a lot
                                    3/ Relevant metadata helps - but on a weighted basis
                                    4/ Apparently, frequent and relevant updating of content helps

                                    But this last is a moot point... the number of searches for say, "CSS equal
                                    height columns" solutions throws up articles three and four years old! :)

                                    Guys, correct me where i'm wrong.


                                    "matthew stuart" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                    news:ga8l9t$en7$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                    > Over the last few minutes, I have been updating my limited knowledge of
                                    > SEO :-)
                                    > and I am stunned to find that search engines don't use keywords any more!
                                    >
                                    > When did this happen?
                                    >
                                    > I would always tend to use a number of things, such as keywords,
                                    > description,
                                    > titles, and above all content of the page. I also try to ensure that the
                                    > title
                                    > of the page is in a h1 tag on the page. Invariably the title and content
                                    > are
                                    > database driven content, and I guess the description and keywords could be
                                    > too,
                                    > but does this have any effect on the search engines being able to rank a
                                    > page
                                    > well?
                                    >
                                    > I always thought it was content, title and keywords that helped to rank a
                                    > page, but I have seen some sites using something like 'revisit', but from
                                    > what
                                    > I recall, that only works with one small canadian town based search
                                    > engine, so,
                                    > what sort of metadata should be using to rank sites well?
                                    >
                                    > Stunned. You can tell I do a lot of print based design work can't you!
                                    >
                                    > Mat
                                    >


                                    • 15. Re: I didn't know that!
                                      Level 7
                                      > One option i read about was to have an invisible or 'off page' div / layer
                                      > with keywords... but, again, there was talk of the search engines
                                      > factoring that in adversely.

                                      Everything I have read leads me to conclude that this is tantamount to
                                      spamming the SE, since that is page content that is NOT for human
                                      readability and ONLY for SE ranking....

                                      --
                                      Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                      Adobe Community Expert
                                      (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                                      ==================
                                      http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                      http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                      ==================


                                      "Jay Jhabrix" <jhabrix@gmail.com> wrote in message
                                      news:ga8ui1$q4f$2@forums.macromedia.com...
                                      >
                                      > "Murray *ACE*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
                                      > news:ga8lou$f9j$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                      >>> When did this happen?
                                      >>
                                      >> As far as I know, metadata will have virtually no impact on your ranking.
                                      >
                                      > Actually, Murray, i believe it still does... but much, much less than the
                                      > early days and the porn sites example you mentioned. Apparently, now they
                                      > corelate. Meaning, if the keywords in the meta tag match words in the text
                                      > of the page then they get a weightage. How much is a question mark. Also,
                                      > as you said, links... links to your site push your rating up.
                                      >
                                      > One option i read about was to have an invisible or 'off page' div / layer
                                      > with keywords... but, again, there was talk of the search engines
                                      > factoring that in adversely.
                                      >
                                      > FWIW...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      • 16. Re: I didn't know that!
                                        Level 7

                                        "Murray *ACE*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
                                        news:ga900o$rr7$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                        >> One option i read about was to have an invisible or 'off page' div /
                                        >> layer with keywords... but, again, there was talk of the search engines
                                        >> factoring that in adversely.
                                        >
                                        > Everything I have read leads me to conclude that this is tantamount to
                                        > spamming the SE, since that is page content that is NOT for human
                                        > readability and ONLY for SE ranking....

                                        Quite... that's why i said adversely. Believe it worked initially, when SEs
                                        were moving to content instead of metadata. But then they got wise...
                                        However, if a div is CSS positioned, how do they catch on?


                                        • 17. Re: I didn't know that!
                                          Level 7
                                          > Quite... that's why i said adversely. Believe it worked initially, when
                                          > SEs were moving to content instead of metadata. But then they got wise...
                                          > However, if a div is CSS positioned, how do they catch on?

                                          Usually by a competitor reporting it which leads to a manual check to
                                          determine the intention - eg a hidden div forming part of a dropdown menu or
                                          some sort of click to show more info type affair is fine, a hidden div just
                                          stuffed with keywords isn't. I don't think google's algo is smart enough yet
                                          to tell the difference so it would need manual intervention.




                                          • 18. Re: I didn't know that!
                                            johngordon12 Level 1
                                            On the subject of the long tail thing, Word Tracker (www.wordtracker.com) is a great tool, although I've never used it in serious anger.

                                            Basically you give it a few suggested keywords / phrases, and it suggests dozens of other similar ones, some good, some less good, that you might not have thought of.

                                            Then it does the clever stuff with the ones that you decide might be worth pursuing - it does two things :

                                            1. Feeds back how much each of then actually are being used by people in search engines.

                                            2. Works out how many competing sites are using each keyword / phrase.

                                            From this you should have an idea of which ones are best to use - ie ones that are being used by people, but other sites aren't using.

                                            So although it might be a smaller number, they'll be far more likely to get you a higher ranking, by people who really are looking for your product / service, and so will be more likely to convert into a sale.

                                            Or at least that's the theory!
                                            • 19. Re: I didn't know that!
                                              matthew stuart Level 2
                                              One thought occurred to me last night with respect to the content of the page and that having an effect on the rank the page is given.

                                              Say I have built a site that is primarily subscription based and the users have to enter a username and password to gain access to the content; how does the search engine get to those password protected pages in order to read the content on them and subsequently give them a rank?

                                              I would assume it can't get at them, thus dramatically reducing your ranking result. Is that right?

                                              Mat
                                              • 20. Re: I didn't know that!
                                                Level 7
                                                .oO(matthew stuart)

                                                >One thought occurred to me last night with respect to the content of the page
                                                >and that having an effect on the rank the page is given.
                                                >
                                                > Say I have built a site that is primarily subscription based and the users
                                                >have to enter a username and password to gain access to the content; how does
                                                >the search engine get to those password protected pages in order to read the
                                                >content on them and subsequently give them a rank?

                                                Of course it doesn't. Think about it: If an SE can get to the content of
                                                the protected pages, then it would be available for the entire public in
                                                the search results or cached pages!

                                                > I would assume it can't get at them, thus dramatically reducing your ranking
                                                >result. Is that right?

                                                Protected content can't be found in SEs, so you have to use the relevant
                                                keywords on unprotected pages if necessary.

                                                Micha
                                                • 21. Re: I didn't know that!
                                                  Level 7
                                                  > Of course it doesn't. Think about it: If an SE can get to the content of
                                                  > the protected pages, then it would be available for the entire public in
                                                  > the search results or cached pages!
                                                  >
                                                  >> I would assume it can't get at them, thus dramatically reducing your
                                                  >> ranking
                                                  >>result. Is that right?
                                                  >
                                                  > Protected content can't be found in SEs, so you have to use the relevant
                                                  > keywords on unprotected pages if necessary.
                                                  >

                                                  Google has something called first click free for paid content. The deal is
                                                  you allow Google to access your content without login (the easiest way would
                                                  be checking useragent=googlebot) then your paid content would be indexed as
                                                  normal. When a paid article appears in the search results you allow the guy
                                                  to read just that article for free but as soon as he clicks another link on
                                                  your site you hit him up for membership. The idea is of course if the guy
                                                  liked his "free" page he'll likely want to subscribe. Google "first click
                                                  free" and you should find the details.

                                                  Cheers,
                                                  Jon


                                                  • 22. Re: I didn't know that!
                                                    Level 7
                                                    Can't the UA be spoofed?

                                                    --
                                                    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                                    Adobe Community Expert
                                                    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                                                    ==================
                                                    http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                                    http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                                    ==================


                                                    "Jon Spivey" <jon@NotThis-Nisusnewmedia.com> wrote in message
                                                    news:gaasmv$5uu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                    >> Of course it doesn't. Think about it: If an SE can get to the content of
                                                    >> the protected pages, then it would be available for the entire public in
                                                    >> the search results or cached pages!
                                                    >>
                                                    >>> I would assume it can't get at them, thus dramatically reducing your
                                                    >>> ranking
                                                    >>>result. Is that right?
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Protected content can't be found in SEs, so you have to use the relevant
                                                    >> keywords on unprotected pages if necessary.
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    > Google has something called first click free for paid content. The deal is
                                                    > you allow Google to access your content without login (the easiest way
                                                    > would be checking useragent=googlebot) then your paid content would be
                                                    > indexed as normal. When a paid article appears in the search results you
                                                    > allow the guy to read just that article for free but as soon as he clicks
                                                    > another link on your site you hit him up for membership. The idea is of
                                                    > course if the guy liked his "free" page he'll likely want to subscribe.
                                                    > Google "first click free" and you should find the details.
                                                    >
                                                    > Cheers,
                                                    > Jon
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    • 23. Re: I didn't know that!
                                                      Level 7
                                                      > Can't the UA be spoofed?
                                                      >

                                                      Probably, if that was an issue you could check for a Google IP address, the
                                                      IP's of googlebot should be available on the web somewhere. If I were
                                                      running a paid content site I'd want to get my content in front of as many
                                                      people as possible which means getting it into Google. Worst case the
                                                      occasional guy goes to the trouble of spoofing a UA to get access but
                                                      there's no actual cost to you if/when that happens - balance this against
                                                      the potential for new subscribers from google visitors and I think it
                                                      probably makes a lot of sense.

                                                      Cheers,
                                                      Jon


                                                      • 24. Re: I didn't know that!
                                                        Level 7
                                                        Yeah - good argument.

                                                        --
                                                        Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                                        Adobe Community Expert
                                                        (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                                                        ==================
                                                        http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                                        http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                                        ==================


                                                        "Jon Spivey" <jon@NotThis-Nisusnewmedia.com> wrote in message
                                                        news:gab0ug$apk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                                        >> Can't the UA be spoofed?
                                                        >>
                                                        >
                                                        > Probably, if that was an issue you could check for a Google IP address,
                                                        > the IP's of googlebot should be available on the web somewhere. If I were
                                                        > running a paid content site I'd want to get my content in front of as many
                                                        > people as possible which means getting it into Google. Worst case the
                                                        > occasional guy goes to the trouble of spoofing a UA to get access but
                                                        > there's no actual cost to you if/when that happens - balance this against
                                                        > the potential for new subscribers from google visitors and I think it
                                                        > probably makes a lot of sense.
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers,
                                                        > Jon
                                                        >
                                                        >