1 2 Previous Next 59 Replies Latest reply on Apr 26, 2009 6:20 AM by Tim Flippance

    Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?

    Tim Flippance Level 1

      When I burn my 1440x1080 movie from CS4 to Blu-ray disc I get a sort of restless, seething, flickering-of-brightness effect in the detailed parts of the picture during slow panning shots across trees and grass. Since this is a very slow, visual film this effect is very annoying and spoils the peaceful atmosphere of the film. This effect is not present (or at least is only very occasionaly so) in the original HDV footage from mini DVD camcorder Canon HV30. Nor is it present when you view the film in Premiere Pro.

      In Encore I've tried setting the Maximum Audio/Video Bitrate to the default setting 15mbps, and also to 40mbps which seems to improve it slightly but not cure it. In Export Settings I've tried setting it to 1440x1080i Maximum Quality.

      Am I doing something wrong, or is this an inherent fault with Blu-ray? I find it hard to believe that Blu-ray is worse quality than mini DVD!

        • 1. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
          Tim Flippance Level 1

          I'm using MPEG-2 encoding. Would H.264 be better?

          • 2. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
            Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

            I export to Blu-Ray at 1920 x 1080 which is what you need for HDTV!

            • 3. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
              Tim Flippance Level 1

              Thanks for the reply Bill.  Is that right, even though it was filmed at 1440 x 1080?

              • 4. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                Both resolutions are supported by the Blu-ray specification.

                • 5. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                  Tim Flippance Level 1

                  But is the fact I'm exporting at 1440 x 1080 instead of 1920 x 1080 what is causing the flicker? Is the flicker caused by my plasma screen converting 1440 x 1080 to 1920 x 1080?  Something must be causing the flicker because I can't believe that sort of flicker would be acceptable to professional film-makers?  Is it because my film was shot in 1440 x 1080p rather than 1440 x 1080i?

                  • 6. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                    Tim Flippance wrote:

                     

                    But is the fact I'm exporting at 1440 x 1080 instead of 1920 x 1080 what is causing the flicker? Is the flicker caused by my plasma screen converting 1440 x 1080 to 1920 x 1080?  Something must be causing the flicker because I can't believe that sort of flicker would be acceptable to professional film-makers?  Is it because my film was shot in 1440 x 1080p rather than 1440 x 1080i?

                     

                    1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080 has nothing to do with the flicker, only with the PAR. However 1080p instead of 1080i makes a significant difference. It gives you the flickering, or much coveted "film look". Why people want that is a mystery to me, but on any movement in the film you get a kind of strobing or flickering. Progressive is nice only with a framerate of at least 50/60 frames or when there is no discernible motion.

                    • 7. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                      Tim Flippance Level 1

                      I don't mean the flicker due to 25p frame rate (incidentaly the only reason I used p was because I read that the vertical definition with i is 30% worse than with p due to a deliberate blurring with i to stop line flicker - it seems I was misinformed on that point?)  The flicker I'm talking about only occurs in the finely detailed parts of the picture, and it only occurs when playing Blu-ray, it doesn't exist when viewing it in Premiere Pro.

                      • 8. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                        The problem is that it is nearly impossible to judge playback quality on a computer screen with PP. You need a properly calibrated monitor for that.

                        Can you give a link to the source of the claimed 30% loss in resolution?

                        • 9. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                          Tim Flippance Level 1

                          I'm afraid I can't remember where I saw that info about 30% less resolution, but it was probably in Wikipedia?  I've seen the original footage played directly from my camera into my plasma screen and it hasn't got this flicker effect on it, so it's either introduced by Premiere Pro (which I doubt because despite my monitor having lower resolution than the plasma screen I would have seen it on the monitor (it isn't a very finely detailed effect, large areas pulsate in brightness)) or it's caused by the conversion process to Blu-ray format, or by my Blu-ray player, or by my screen (this is all getting increasingly unlikely I know, but I'm at my wits end)

                          • 10. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                            Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                            Tim Flippance wrote:


                            "incidentaly the only reason I used p was because I read that the vertical definition with i is 30% worse than with p due to a deliberate blurring with i to stop line flicker - it seems I was misinformed on that point?"

                             

                            I would suspect that this might be referring to the HDTV screen and only if you had a true 1080p source playing it back on a 1080i only type of HDTV.

                             

                            I am wondering if some of this problem may be caused by in Premiere you are viewing on a LCD screen while you are playing the Blu-Ray back on a Plasma screen???

                             

                            I have never seen my Blu-Ray discs on a Plasma screen.

                            • 11. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                              Bill,

                               

                              You could be on to something here, since only very few plasma screen are capable of displaying full HD and only of the last generation. AFAIK only 1 or 2 models from Panasonic and Pioneer are capable of displaying 1920x1080 in their native resolution. 99% of all plasma screens have no more than HD-Ready resolution. They will be extinct shortly anyway, with the advent of LED backlighted LCD's.

                              • 12. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                Tim Flippance Level 1

                                My plasma screen is 50" SAMSUNG PS50A558S1FX which is 1920 x 1080, and in any case my HDV footage showed directly from the camera without problem.

                                • 13. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                                  Tim,

                                   

                                  Your panel should not be the cause of problems. It is indeed one of the few full HD plasma screens available and the fact that displaying your material from the camera (HDV is 1440x1080i) is without any problem means that the PAR is not to blame. Your camera is not truly P. It wraps everything in a 50/60i format. Did you (possibly mistakenly) adjust your project settings to p instead of i? The only logical explanation is that somewhere along the route you took there is some mixup with p and i formats to cause the grief you experience.

                                   

                                  Can you please outline the EXACT steps you took when capturing (what sequence settings) and what settings you used on export and on what BR player you tried this?

                                  • 14. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                    Tim Flippance Level 1

                                    I've had no end of problems from the moment I switched from 16mm film to hd video. The very first problem was I thought my camera was true 1920x1080 and bought Premiere Elements 4 having been misinformed it would handle 1920x1080. Then I found it didn't so bought Elements 7, found it too wouldn't handle 1920, so bought Pro at great expense. Then found out my camera is only 1440 anyway so Elements would have done!  Then many more problems which were all eventualy solved with the help of members of this forum. This I hope is my last problem. I'm so aware of the danger of fiddling around for ever perfecting the technical aspects of a system, and never getting down to the creative artistic side of things which is the point of it all in the first place.  So, having got that off my chest:---  I shot all the footage in 1440 x 1080p25 which my camera records as i50  I captured it to PP at 1440x1080i25 by clicking New Project. In New Project screen it had video - timecode, audio - audio samples, capture - HDV, I titled it and clicked OK. In New Sequence screen I set it to HDV 1080i25 (50) and clicked OK. In the PP editing screen I clicked File>Capture. In the Capture screen I clicked Tape and it captured it all OK. I  edited it all and as I say it runs and looks perfect in PP but wont burn to Blu-ray without this flickering effect in certain areas of the picture when panning (very very slowly) across detailed scenery. To burn it to Blu-ray I selected the work area (the timeline), clicked File>Adobe Dynamic Link>Send to Encore. In the Project box I named it, the location was My Documents. In Project Settings I set it to Blu-Ray, PAL, MPEG-2, Frame-rate 25, Dimensions 1440x1080, clicked OK and it did the transcode settings. In the Properties box I named it. I selected the Build tab and selected Blu-ray for Format and for Output. I put a disc in the burner, clicked Build and it produced a box saying "This project has problems that may cause the disc to play incorrectly. Would you like to view these now?" I pressed View and it said "End Action not set, Title Remote not set".  So then I set End Action to Return to Last Menu, but I couldn't find anything called Title Remote anywhere so I couldn't set it.   Then I pressed Ignore and Continue and it did all the transcoding and burning.    So as far as I can see the only thing I did wrong was not setting Title Remote (whatever that is.)  Then on the advice of Curt I tried increasing the bit-rate by (in Advanced) changing Maximum Audio/Video Bitrate in Automatic Transcoding from 15mbps to 40mbps, clicking OK, and in Export Settings selecting 1440x1080 Maximum Quality. This seemed to improve the problem somewhat, but did not cure it. My Blu-ray burner is LG GGW-820L. My Blu-ray player is Samsung BD-P1500

                                    • 15. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                      If you use settings like these:

                                       

                                      BR_export.jpg

                                      do you still have the same problems?

                                      • 16. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                        Tim Flippance Level 1

                                        Thanks Harm, I'll try that (when I've bought some more discs).  I find it hard to read everything on that picture, but as far as I can see you are suggesting I try 1920x1080, H.264 and maximum bitrate? I'll certainly try it.

                                         

                                        Tim

                                        • 17. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                          Harm Millaard Level 7

                                          If you double click the picture it expands to original size, improving legibility.

                                          • 19. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                            Tim Flippance Level 1

                                            I've just discovered an amazing thing - I tried playing the Blu-ray disc on the BR burner in the computer, and it plays perfectly, both on the computer monitor and on the plasma screen! This was the one thing it never occured to me to check before. This means there is nothing wrong with the BR encoding process, and the fault must lie in my stand-alone BR player???  What a relief!  But why is my BR player doing this weird fault?

                                            • 20. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                              Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                              Try upgrading your player with the latest firmware.

                                              • 21. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                How would I do that?

                                                • 22. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                  That will probably be described in the manual of the BR player, or else indicated on the manufacturer's website.

                                                  • 23. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                    For the Title Remote setting, go to Disc Panel and click the Project Title ("DVD Project" by default), and look in the Properties Panel. About half-way down, you'll see Title Button (refers to the Title Button on the remote control), and set that to your Main Menu (or the location of your choice). This tells the set-top player what to do, when the Title Button is pressed.

                                                     

                                                    As for the "pulsing," I haven't a clue, but am following along to see where that leads.

                                                     

                                                    Good luck,

                                                     

                                                    Hunt

                                                    • 24. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?

                                                      I was searching the internet and came on this forum. I am not Adobe user, but Vegas user. But, the main reason I wrote is that I saw similar things like Tim did.

                                                       

                                                      I live in PAL country, I have HV30, PS3 and 37 inch 1024x768 plasma. When I play HV30's m2t files  directly like data files on PS3 and plasma (no matter is it from DVD or HDD) I have perfect and stable picture. Also, when I play HV30 directly through HDMI on plasma everything is OK.

                                                       

                                                      But when I play authorized dummy AVCHD (it is the special way you can burn mpeg2 files on ordinary DVD and PS3 will play that) than I see little flickering and something similar like Tim. I would say flickering is not so big, but it is noticeable, and whole picture is somethimes more unquiet then with m2t reproduction on PS3. It happens mainly on thiny vertical bright lines and Iwould say when cam has little vertical movement (or even when is stable but there is many small objects in scene).

                                                       

                                                      But, I can't be sure what will be with real Blu-Ray discs. I don't have Blu-Ray burner yet. I said before that I have dummy AVCHD with mpeg2 video. All my test m2t files and my m2ts files from dummy AVCDH are in fact the same and directly from the cam and are smartrendered (in Vegas and in authoring program).

                                                       

                                                      It happens when I sent video from PS3 like 1080i. But when I lock PS3 on 720p output I have different situation: now both, m2t data files and dummy AVCHD files are flickering but now something less than dummy AVCHD with 1080i output from PS3.

                                                       

                                                      I found that when I render in Vegas from HDV to 1920x1080i and when after that I author dummy AVCHD I don't have flickering and video looks like it should. But it don't make sense because I lose smartrender in Vegas (and perhaps quality), time and space. Most recommendations on internet are that the best way is to stay in your format from the begining to the end - in my case it is HDV 1440x1080.

                                                       

                                                      Anyway, I don't see any difference in quality between original m2t (1440x1080) and rendered 1920x1080 files. And because flickering has gone, rendered 1920x1080 files on dummy AVCHD look much better than original smartrendered 1440x1080.

                                                       

                                                      So, I have solution if I want but it is slow and I lose space on DVD and maybe quality. I think I have some compatibilty problem, or maybe even problem with PS3 which don't make good scaling. I hope it is only for AVCHD and maybe not for real Blu-Ray mpeg2 video. I know nothing is wrong with my video, but problem is somewhere in reproduction between PS3 and plasma.

                                                       

                                                      With ordinary DVD video and with data files on PS3 I don't have any problem like these.

                                                       

                                                      PS3 could be responsible, or maybe even plasma, but from what I see my conclusion would be:

                                                       

                                                      - if with 1440 I put PS3 output on 1080i - PS3 should scale it on 1080i and sent to plasma (plasma should also scale to 1024x768) and it is not good; :

                                                       

                                                      - if with 1440 or 1920 I put PS3 output on 720p - PS3 should scale them on 720p and sent to plasma (plasma should also scale to 1024x768) and it is not good; :

                                                       

                                                      - if with 1920 I put PS3 output on 1080i - PS3 should not scale it and sent to plasma (plasma should also scale to 1024x768) and it is good .

                                                       

                                                      SO PS3 FOR AVCHD DON''T SCALE VIDEO PROPERLY ???

                                                      • 25. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                        Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                                        Dont use the "MAx render quality" setting unless you are scaling.  Using it on hig res footage can over enhance high detail edges and cause some shimmering.    I dont know if this is whatyou are seeing, but you shouldnt use it unless scaling down.

                                                        • 26. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                          Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                          Thanks for all these tips and info.

                                                          Curt - I won't use Max quality again, but that wasn't what caused the fault because it was there when I used the default BR settings.

                                                          I'm just about to see if I can download any upgrades to my BR player as Bill suggested. I'll report back on the results.

                                                          Hunt - thanks for the info about Title Remote.

                                                          SESOHDV - that was very interesting. From what you say, and from what Harm says, it seems I may have to use 1920x1080 rather than 1440x1080 when burning BR? But will there be any degredation in quality by converting it to 1920x1080?

                                                          Incidentaly, the booklet for my BR player says it will only show 24p or 30i discs! It doesn't mention 25i which seems strange.

                                                          Now on the subject of the forum - how do you view all previous posts (not just the one you are replying to) while you are typing a reply?

                                                          • 27. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                            As for viewing all previous post, while in the reply text box, the only way that I have found to do this is to open the forum in another browser. One could Tab back and forth, but I like having it open, next to my browser in which I'm typing for easy reference. Luckily, my 17" laptop has just enough real estate to have Adobe fora on two browsers, and still in view. I wish that there was some other way, but have not found it yet.

                                                             

                                                            Good luck, and let us all know how the BD Burn goes.

                                                             

                                                            Hunt

                                                             

                                                            [Edit] For reference, Jeff Bellune has published a comprehensive list of BD formats (though this will obviously not mean that all will work in all players/drives), in the FAQ section of the Encore forum. Good reference.

                                                            • 28. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                              Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                              Thanks Hunt 

                                                               

                                                              I downloaded an upgrade for my BR player but it did no good. Then I phoned the manufacturer and they told me my player won't play 25i, only 24p and 30i so it looks like that's the answer, I'll have to take it back to the shop and buy another one. C'est la vie.

                                                              • 29. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                Good to know you figured it out. The lesson is that:

                                                                 

                                                                a: It is extremely difficult to figure out what went wrong. It requires a lot of details.

                                                                b: Sometimes the solution to the problem is in the most unexpected corner.

                                                                c: With diligent search and persistent investigation you managed to figure it out.

                                                                 

                                                                Congratulations and happy editing with the new BR player.

                                                                • 30. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                  Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                                  Thanks Harm. Mind you I havn't got the new player yet --- I won't believe it's finaly sorted until I see a nice non-flickering picture with my own eyes! Thanks for your help.

                                                                   

                                                                  Tim

                                                                  • 31. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                    Level 1

                                                                    Yes Tim, this new PAL Blu-Ray player will be solution for your problem. Before it was very similar problem with PS3 for PAL conuntries, but that is solved in last updates (maybe before few months).

                                                                     

                                                                    But than your artifacts were much much bigger than mine. I know how your artifacts look like and it is realy terrible when 50i video is converted by the player in 60i video. My artifacts are rare in whole video (maybe 2-3 minutes in 1 hour of video and only on very special bright vertical objects), very small and most people would never see the difference.

                                                                     

                                                                    When you ask about scaling your video from HDV to 1920x1080 the answer would be NO if you don't have problems with playing uncompatibility (somewhere between Blu-Ray player and TV). Your video will be bigger, your renderings will be much longer and you should have degradation in quality (if you don't use some special programs or codecs like Cineform).

                                                                     

                                                                    In my case, I must have degradation in quality if I render in 1920x1080 because Vegas don't render anything when I stay in HDV if I don't change colours or so (if for example I only cut bad parts of a video). But, I lost my eyes and I couldn't see any difference on 37 inch HD ready plasma - but who knows what would I see on Full HD 50 inch plasma from the same distance.

                                                                     

                                                                    So, I am still in doubt how to render my video. The solutions for me could be:

                                                                     

                                                                    - new full HD plasma so there would be less hardware rescaling of original video from PS3

                                                                    - burning on real Blu-Ray discs because dummy AVCHD mpeg2 is in fact very unusual so maybe PS3

                                                                      will play regular Blu-Ray properly (I search internet very much and I didn't find that somebody is

                                                                      complaining in how PS3 reproduce Blu-Ray and people who are making dummy AVCHD are very rare)

                                                                     

                                                                    We should be aware that picture on TV depends not only on quality of our video, but also on quality and compatibility of our players and TVs. And there should be not too many rescaling of original video from disc. Ideal would be: from 1920x1080 to 1920x1080. 1440x1080 must be rescaled in player before it come to TV, but good player should rescale it better (and faster which means momentaly) than any software.

                                                                     

                                                                    I didn't find answer on this forum, but good thing for me is that you had wrong Blu-Ray player - if the case was that you saw flickering artifacts with HDV on real Blu-Ray it would not be good sign. HDV is now very old format and I realy see not big reasons that we should have uncompatibility problems.

                                                                        

                                                                    • 32. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                      Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                                      So I won't consider rendering to 1920x1080. But why do some people render from 1440x1080 to 1920x1080? If you're screening on a 1920x1080 screen anyway, what difference does it make if the video has been rendered to 1440x1080 or 1920x1080? And now I've had enough --- I've got to get to bed --- Goodnight.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                        Tim,

                                                                         

                                                                        Basic PAR knowledge:

                                                                         

                                                                        PAR = Pixel Aspect Ratio

                                                                         

                                                                        Consider a situation where you have a 4:3 image with 1080 vertical resolution (the basic 4:3 CCD/CMOS resolution). That means your horizontal resolution needs to be 1440. 1080/3 = 360. 360 x 4= 1440. So you end up with 1440x1080 resolution. What happens if you want widescreen? 16x9 resolution? You are still limited by the CCD/CMOS resolution in the camera. What if we extend the horizontal width of the pixels by 33%, so we leave the original square pixels of 1440x1080 behind us and extend the horizontal width by 33%, so we end up with rectangular pixels instead of square ones?  If you do that we still have a 1440x1080 image but with rectangular pixels instead of square ones. When the rectangular pixels are 33% wider than the original, we still have 1440x1080 pixels, but the width of the total picture has increased by 33%. If you translate that back into square pixels, your image size has changed from 1440 (extended by 33%) x 1080 to 1920 x 1080 with square pixels. Sure, the image quality of artificially extended resolution will not match the image quality of square pixel recording, but it still is the best solution for 4:3 sensors.

                                                                         

                                                                        This is a lackluster attempt to explain the PAR of various recording mechanisms, but maybe it helps somewhat.

                                                                        • 34. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                          Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                                          Harm  ---

                                                                           

                                                                          But what I mean is, if your video is already 16x9 1440x1080 with rectangular pixels (as mine is) what is the advantage in converting it to 1920x1080?

                                                                          • 35. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                            Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                            Sorry Tim, your source is 1440 x 1080 with a PAR of 1.33. How else could you get a 16 x 9 ratio? Assume that 1080 represents the vertical dimension. So for every single dimension unit, of which you have 9 in the vertical direction, you have 120 pixels (9 x 120 = 1080). So now that we have established that a single dimension unit is 120 pixels, how much horizontal resolution is needed to get the equivalent of 16 units? 16 x 120 = 1920. Now this is with square pixels.

                                                                             

                                                                            However, you only have 1440 pixels horizontal and you still need 16 x 9 format. The only way to achieve that is by not using square pixels, but by using rectangular pixels, that are 33% wider than normal, because 1440 x 1.33 = 1920.

                                                                             

                                                                            Hope this explains it a bit.

                                                                            • 36. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                              Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                                              Harm

                                                                               

                                                                              Yes I know my video has 1080 verticaly and 1440 horizontaly, and that each pixel is elongated horizontaly so it is 1 high and 1.33 wide, giving 16:9 aspect ratio, but my point is, if I export my video via BR to a 16x9 screen it will presumably give a good picture (though with only 75% as good horizontal resolution as a 1920x1080 picture would), therefore what could be the point in rendering my video to 1920x1080 instead of 1440x1080 (if that's possible, maybe it isn't possible to do that, I don't know?)

                                                                              • 37. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                                Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                                AFAIK the BR specs dictate a 1920x1080 square pixel resolution.

                                                                                • 38. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                                  Jeff Bellune just published this FAQ in the Encore forum. Though it does not address the PAR aspect, it might prove useful.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Hunt

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Flicker on Blu-ray replay - why?
                                                                                    Tim Flippance Level 1

                                                                                    It's interesting to see that 1920x1080i doesn't exist.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    My Blu-ray saga goes on and on  ---  I've now been told by a man at Samsung that they don't make ANY Blu-ray players which will play home-burned discs!   Can anyone recommend a BR player that will play PAL home-burned discs?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Failing that I'll have to use the burner in the computer, which takes me back to my previous problem  --  how to fill my 16x9 screen at full definition from a BR disc played in the computer? At present it only shows a small picture  with controls etc at the bottom, as it would appear on the computer monitor.

                                                                                    1 2 Previous Next