6 Replies Latest reply on May 7, 2009 8:16 AM by joshtownsend

    Premiere Pro CS4 can't properly remove pulldown in HDV clip from new Sony HDR-FX1000

    Douglas R Wagner

      Is this really correct?  Using a test clip on CS4, it appears to be so!




      You would think this issue would be fixed by now, unless the problem relates to the behavior of the new Sony HDR-FX1000.


      I am interested in doing HDV 24p video work, and was looking into whether to buy the new prosumer camera from Sony, the HDR-FX1000, or its fully professional version, the HVR-Z5U. It is looking like I will have to buy the HVR-Z5U.




      Only the HVR-Z5U has the ability to directly record HDV on to tape with native 24p video (or possibly more technically precise, it is only the HVR-Z5U which allows through FireWire the capture of native 24p into an NLE application at the HDV resolution of 1440x1080 at 24p – not capturing a 60i signal with 3:2 pulldown).  With the HDR-FX1000, the manual says that HDV video recorded in the 24p mode will go on to tape as a 60i signal with 3:2 pulldown.




      Unfortunately, it looks like the problems discussed with Premiere’s past problems in handling 24 frame rate, recorded on Sony cameras as 60i with 3:2 pulldown, have not been fixed in CS4.  Even after 4.1, this problem may continue to persist, particularly if the problem as another person posted in the past, is actually that Sony's prosumer cameras fail to imbed the phasing of the 3:2 cadence in the HDV mpeg stream.




      I was able to find a native clip taken on the Sony HDR-FX1000 which I could download from the Web and import into Premiere Pro CS4 for test purposes.  It came from a German video engineer named Wolfgang Winne, the weblink being: http://www.fxsupport.de/blog/01_09.html




      Being in Germany, this was PAL HDV video at 25p. It therefore goes into 50i with a 2:2 pulldown cadence.  Nonetheless, it should serve as a similar indicator for the U.S. 24p rate as far as exploring how well Premier can handle a reverse pulldown to restore the video to its proper progressive frames after capture/import.




      Of course a number of people have noted a minor inconvenience in CS4 as compared to CS3 -- in that on CS4 it is necessary after importing a video clip to do an extra step of applying “Interpret Footage".




      In order to test CS4, I first created a project with the sequence format of  HDV 1080p25, selected under the category of HDV presets.  Then I took the downloaded .m2t video file of HDV at 1440x1080 25p, and imported it into Premiere Pro CS4.


      I then set up both a Source monitor and a Program monitor window, and to be sure I could accurately observe interlaced artifacts, I set the view size for both at 100 percent.




      Firstly examining the clip in the Source monitor, it's clear that Premiere Pro CS4 only shows half resolution for an imported video clip with this “50i wrapper”, and not surprisingly if you just grab the freshly imported clip and drop it onto the timeline, the timeline will then have a red bar above it since CS4 requires the extra manual step of doing "Interpret Footage" before the footage can be put on the timeline as a native 25p clip.




      But the big surprise, and the source of the question in this post, was what happened after I did an "Interpret Footage" step.  I would have thought that the 2:2 reverse pulldown on the "50i wrapper" would have been done correctly, and I would be able to view an interlaced-free clip on the timeline via the Program monitor window.




      Surprisingly, that was not the case.  In the “Interpret Footage” options window, under Field Order, I selected "Conform to: No Fields (progressive)”.  I then dropped the clip on to the timeline, and moved the time marker to a point where a car was pulling in to a gas station.  The camera was on a tripod, so this was a perfect set up to look for interlaced artifacts.



      There was severe zigzagging on the moving image of the car - and thus highly visible interlacing.




      I deleted that clip from the timeline, and tried another path for moving the post-“Interpret Footage” clip on to the timeline.  This time I set an In Point in the Source monitor, selected an Out Point, and then dragged this smaller subset of time from the Source monitor onto the timeline.  Again, the car had severe interlacing on it.




      There was no red line above the clip on the timeline for either of these methods, indicating that the step of "Interpret Footage" had indeed created a progressive-framed clip.




      This indicates that even if CS4, version 4.1, provides the automatic pulldown removal step (which I believe is what CS3 does in v3.2) we will still likely have the fundamental problem that at least for this new Sony camera, as well as the other Sony prosumer cameras mentioned on other posts which process 24p into 3:2 pulldown at 60i, that Premiere Pro CS4 will not be able to provide proper pulldown removal.  (Same problem in PAL HDV, for cameras that process 25p into 2:2 pulldown at 50i)



      Am I missing something here?




      People who have used Panasonic cameras have indicated that Premiere Pro is able to correctly remove the 3:2 pulldown. But Canon and Sony prosumer cameras are said to not give Premiere Pro proper cadence flag information in the MPEG HDV stream, preventing proper reconstruction of progressive frames.



      Is this really a problem within Sony and Canon HDV cameras, or is there a software issue within Premiere Pro that has yet to be resolved?


      Message was edited by: Douglas R Wagner

        • 1. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 can't properly remove pulldown in HDV clip from new Sony HDR-FX1000
          Douglas R Wagner Level 1

          I guess no one owns yet the HDR-FX1000 or has tried its 24 frames progressive shooting mode yet.


          Better to expand the question:      Has anyone using a Sony, Canon, or Panasonic camera, either for HDV or DV in shooting 24p had problems when Premiere Pro CS4 (or3) attempted to undo the "60i wrapper" to get back to 24 progressive frames per second?  Another way of saying it, does Premiere Pro CS4 (or3) correctly undo the 3:2 pulldown process used when 24p is recorded onto tape - i.e. so that you can edit true 24p footage on a 24p timeline?


          I'm excluding professional cameras like the PMW-EX1, because in HQ mode, the EX1 captures native 24p video into its solid state SxS cards, so there's no 3:2 pulldown to worry about.



          • 2. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 can't properly remove pulldown in HDV clip from new Sony HDR-FX1000

            I am experiencing similar issues in a switch from CS3 to 4, where 4 is not capturing my 24f footage correctly (and 3 did).


            I just got this reply in, but have not tested it.


            CS4 do the 24p pulldown automatically like it used to. Know you have to right-click 'interpret footage' and make sure the 24p dv checkbox is checked.


            When you look at the clip in the timeline does it say 23.976 or 29.976 (if it says 29.97 then you have to manually remove the pulldown.





            • 3. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 can't properly remove pulldown in HDV clip from new Sony HDR-FX1000
              Douglas R Wagner Level 1

              Thanks for replying.  I was beginning to think my post would be buried and never seen again.





              I am aware of the need in CS4 to do the manual "Interpret Footage" step, which was not required in CS3 when needing to remove 3:2 pulldown.





              But unless the 3:2 pulldown cadence information is recorded as part of taking the progressive footage and putting it into a 60i wrapper (i.e. your progressive footage is actually recorded on tape as a 60i signal, but where the frames follow a 3:2 pulldown system), then Premiere would be left to guess at the pulldown timing.





              So far from my research, it would appear that a number of first-level prosumer cameras that do the 60i-wrapper method of recording progressive frames onto tape do not record the pulldown phasing information.  That would prevent Premier Pro CS3 and CS4 from successfully restoring the footage to 24p after interpreting the footage.






              People say that Sony and Canon are particularly bad about this. Panasonic cameras have not had reports of problems for SD progressive as well as HD progressive pulldown removal - that I know of at least -- so they appear to be consistent among their models for recording 3:2 cadence phasing information.



              You mentioned that you are now having problems with your footage.  A couple of questions for you.  What model camera do you use?  And are you using DV or HDV, or something else for your progressive footage?



              For example, if you use a Canon XH-A1, do you shoot HDV 24pa mode?  Thoses pieces of information will make the situation more clear.



              • 4. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 can't properly remove pulldown in HDV clip from new Sony HDR-FX1000
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                One thing to keep in mind here is that 24p is designed to be edited in a Standard (30i) sequence, with the pulldown left intact.  Only 24pA (Advanced pulldown) is for use in a 24p sequence.

                • 5. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 can't properly remove pulldown in HDV clip from new Sony HDR-FX1000
                  Douglas R Wagner Level 1

                  Hi Jim,


                  When you say "24p", you mean the 60i-wrapper version, right?  (fields at 60i that is; 30i would be how to reference it in terms of frames)  Yes, I then think from what I've read that you're right.  It's not expected that you'd be trying to get the pulldown removed to be back to a true 24p timeline.


                  One thing I'm not totally clear on.  For a 24pA video, are we using this term to cover DV and HDV?  I've heard this term for DV, but I'm not sure about HDV.  Sony is using some funky terminology for pA in HDV, like "HDV 24Scan, type 'A' " , and that's only available on the professional big brother, the Z5U.


                  Also, in CS4, I presume that once you bring in a 24pA asset, you need to do an "Interpret Footage" in the Project window before you bring it down to the 24p timeline, correct?


                  Thanks .... by the way, I'd really love it if someone who owned an FX1000 would take a short clip in its 24p mode for HDV, and then upload the raw clip for me to download and play with.  It needs to be the exact same file for me to download as was captured from the camera, untouched, in order for me to explore how the apps would handle it.  I have a hunch that I'd need After Effects to correctly do a guess on the 3:2 cadence to get that video set up correctly on a 24p timeline.

                  • 6. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 can't properly remove pulldown in HDV clip from new Sony HDR-FX1000
                    joshtownsend Level 2

                    Douglas R Wagner wrote:


                    Also, in CS4, I presume that once you bring in a 24pA asset, you need to do an "Interpret Footage" in the Project window before you bring it down to the 24p timeline, correct?



                    You are correct. Adobe sucks for not fixing it by now. I shoot 24pa most of the and it's annoying. It's also stupid that you have to do it again when you take the clip into AE.