17 Replies Latest reply: May 16, 2009 11:40 AM by Was DYP RSS

    WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue

    Simon J.A. Simpson Community Member

       

      Over the last four days (and over fifty prints) I have undertaken extensive and meticulous tests to identify the cause of a problem; namely that targets for profiling a new printer (a Canon Pro9000), printed with ‘no colour management’, were printing far too dark and with what appeared to be a colour cast.

       

       

      I have conclusively eliminated the printer, the printer drivers, the Mac OS, corrupted preference files, corrupted user accounts, incorrect Photoshop settings, incorrect printer driver settings, the ‘sticky settings' issue, and user error as possible causes of the problem.

       

       

      I can say with 95% certainty that my tests, conducted using Mac OSX 10.4.11, have proved the following:

      1. That, printing to a Canon Pro9000 or iP4500, Photoshop CS4 does not print accurate targets suitable for producing profiles.  This applies to both the No Colour Management (NCM) and the Printer Manages Colour (PMC) settings.
      2. Photoshop CS and CS2 are not effected.

      I did not test CS3.

       

      Furthermore, colour managed prints (using the same accurate profile made in CS2), printed in CS2 and CS4, show subtle differences.  This may not be an issue except in the most critical applications.

       

       

      It is likely that the problem will not be confined to the two Canon printers above since many other Canon printers share the same driver architecture.

       

       

      Reading posts and discussions on other websites would seem to indicate that this problem is also manifest with some Epson printers and may also effect Mac OSX 10.5.

       

       

      I have to conclude, therefore, that Photoshop CS4 cannot be replied upon to print targets of sufficient accuracy to produce reliable profiles for a colour managed workflow.

       

       

      The fact that this is only just being reported can be attributed to four factors:

       

      1. That many CS4 users are continuing to use profiles made under older versions of Photoshop and have yet to make new profiles using CS4.
      2. Some users may not immediately notice a problem, or may ascribe it to other causes.
      3. Some users may take the line of least resistance and use a previous version of Photoshop to work around the problem.
      4. Some users are still using the older versions of Photoshop not effected.

       

      Eric Chan (of Adobe) has stated on another website that CS4 implemented some new APIs for printing and that this has given rise to some "minor glitches".  If Eric Chan is correct, and Adobe changed the APIs in Photoshop CS4, this begs question of whether Adobe sufficiently tested CS4 before release ?  If Adobe did not test their software, and therefore failed to identify this critical problem, this would suggest negligence on Adobe’s part.  If Adobe identified the problem but then did not inform users that a potentially serious colour management issue existed this would suggest wilful or gross negligence.

       

       

      It is not good enough to say that Adobe simply followed the ‘conventional’ path and ‘followed the rules’ regarding API implementation.  The experience of end users does not correspond to a “minor glitch” and, in my case, has been extremely costly in terms of time (over five days in all), lost revenues, and materials.  Furthermore, why should Adobe's customers be forced to use their valuable time diagnosing problems clearly of Adobe's creation – and actually admitted.

       

       

      In UK law providers of goods and services (and this includes software) have to supply them as “fit for purpose”.  Clearly, in terms of colour management, CS4 is not fit for purpose.  Neither can Adobe hide behind its labyrinthine licensing terms since any exclusions would be ruled unlawful under the UK’s ‘Unfair Contract Terms’ Act.

       

       

      My strong and unequivocal recommendation is that representatives from Adobe, Apple, and the printer manufacturers meet together – with the utmost urgency – and provide a rapid and complete solution.  It is simply not good enough to pass this ‘over the wall’ saying “it’s not our problem”.  It is.  Adobe's, Apple's, and the printer manufacturers'.  Please solve it.  And quickly.

       

      Identify the problem clearly, make it and the solution/s public; and publicise it widely and thoroughly.

        • 1. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
          Was DYP Community Member

          We have been through this all before here. Double Profiling. Do a search.

           

          Canon has updated there iPFx100 drivers to correctly work with Leopard. PSCS4 and LR print correctly with these new driver.

           

          There is no reason Canon cannot correct the drivers for your printer. Contact them.

           

          Your other option is to use the ColorSync Utility workaround.

           

          You just might want to install the latest iPFx100 driver and see if it changes the driver setting so that No Correction is the default instead of ColorSync. You'll need driver version 1.90 or 1.91.

          • 2. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
            Simon J.A. Simpson Community Member

            Dear DYP.

             

            May I respectfully suggest that you read my post again.

             

            This is not a "double profiling" issue since no profiles are actually involved (no colour management being the key).

            Neither will the 'Colorsync workaround' help in this case.

             

            To my knowledge the iPFx100 driver will not work with a Canon Pro9000, nor an iP4500.

             

            If you try to print targets from CS4 to create profiles - beware !  You have been warned !

             

            It is not clear whether the responsibility lies with Adobe, Apple, or the printer manufacturers.

            I agree that Canon providing a working driver would (probably) be the easiest and best answer.

            • 3. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
              Jeff Schewe Community Member

              Simon J.A. Simpson wrote:

               

              It is not clear whether the responsibility lies with Adobe, Apple, or the printer manufacturers.

              I agree that Canon providing a working driver would (probably) be the easiest and best answer.

               

              Actually, it is clear whose fault it is...Apple's ColorSync. ColorSync is doing an unneeded and unwanted transform and getting in the way of Photoshop CS4 using the new printing APIs to printers using the older API drivers. It's Apple's problem to fix as far as I can tell...

              • 4. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                Simon J.A. Simpson Community Member

                Hi Jeff.

                 

                Thank you for your post.

                 

                We now have two opinions from Adobe.

                It is the printer manufacturers, or Apple, who are at fault.

                 

                It really makes no difference to the end user whose "fault" it is.

                 

                What worked under Photoshop CS and CS2 no longer works under Photoshop CS4.

                 

                May I respectfully suggest that working together with Apple and the printer manufacturers to communicate the problem to users and to provide a solution, quickly, would be the best way forward.

                • 5. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                  Jeff Schewe Community Member

                  Simon J.A. Simpson wrote:

                   

                  We now have two opinions from Adobe.

                  It is the printer manufacturers, or Apple, who are at fault.

                   

                  No, you don't have two from Adobe...you have one from Adobe (Eric who can't REALLY say everything he might like to say) and you have mine (and I can say whatever I feel like saying).

                   

                  Adobe with CS4 moved to Apple's new printing APIs. That is a one way road...things that had been cobbled together that worked (kinda) over the years quit working with certain printers (and their drivers based on the old APIs). There is nothing Adobe can do to fix old drivers...only the printer manufactures can. Also, Apple has been diddling with ColorSync (which often screws up both Adobe AND the printer drivers). That is the case at the moment when trying to use "No Color Management" out of CS4 to print drivers expecting data to be delivered using the old printing APIs.

                   

                  Yes, at the moment until Apple (it is completely within Apples powers to fix this) fixes these issues, you'll need to print targets out of a version of Photoshop other than CS4. Yes, it's a pain in the arce...

                   

                  You'll note that there is no issue using Windows CS4 (well except for known double color management under Vista and the lack of 64 bit print drivers). So, yeah, I guess everybody has problems :~)

                  • 6. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                    Was DYP Community Member

                    Simon J.A. Simpson wrote:

                     

                    Dear DYP.

                     

                    May I respectfully suggest that you read my post again.

                     

                    This is not a "double profiling" issue since no profiles are actually involved (no colour management being the key).

                    Neither will the 'Colorsync workaround' help in this case.

                     

                    To my knowledge the iPFx100 driver will not work with a Canon Pro9000, nor an iP4500.

                     

                    If you try to print targets from CS4 to create profiles - beware !  You have been warned !

                     

                    It is not clear whether the responsibility lies with Adobe, Apple, or the printer manufacturers.

                    I agree that Canon providing a working driver would (probably) be the easiest and best answer.

                     

                    First of all I did not say that the iPFx100 drivers would work with your printer. The iPFx100 drivers do not work with the iPFx000 printer, but installing the iPFx100 drivers does make some changes so that the iPFx000 drivers do not default to using colorsync. I was suggesting it may be worth a try with other Canon printers.

                     

                    Are you running the 10.15.0.0 driver? I noticed they were released about the same time that the iPFx100 driver that work correctly with PSCS4 and Leopard. I also noted that driver version 10.18.0.0 for the Mark II was released on 02/15/2009. It might be worth installing that driver to see if it might correct the colorsync issue with your printer.

                    • 7. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                      Simon J.A. Simpson Community Member

                      Hi Jeff.

                       

                      My profound apologies for mistakenly believing that you are an employee of Adobe.  Entirely my mistake, and for which I am very sorry !

                       

                      This whole issue is clearly an infernal mare's nest.  I take your point about ColorSync and moving to new APIs.  I guess my frustration comes from spending so much time, yet again, diagnosing and reporting a serious problem which Adobe could quite easily have warned us about (my fourth unofficial contribution to their testing programme).  The CS4 release ReadMe file is remarkably silent on this issue although it does warn about "some Canon printers" having problems printing, but only with PMC selected.  Neither does it make any mention of Epson printers having a problem.

                       

                      My second area of frustration is with the companies involved who seem to be taking a 'pass it over the wall it's not my problem' approach.  Whatever happened to co-operative working ?  And whatever happened to 'getting it right for the customer' ? (rhetorical questions btw)

                       

                      My warning stands - until such time as there is a widely publicised fix.

                       

                      Thank you very much for throwing some much needed illumination on the scene.

                      • 8. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                        Was DYP Community Member

                         

                        My warning stands - until such time as there is a widely publicised fix.

                         

                        Thank you very much for throwing some much needed illumination on the scene.

                         

                        You can warn and complain all you want but you haven't answered any of my questions on the current ways to fix this problem.

                         

                        What fixes have you tried?

                         

                        What driver versions are you using?

                         

                        Yes it is frustrating but in a lot of cases it is fixable as I and others have clear reported, on this and the LR forums.

                        • 9. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                          Simon J.A. Simpson Community Member

                          Dear DYP.

                           

                          Thank you for your concern.

                           

                           

                          "What fixes have you tried?"

                          If I may quote from my post above:

                           

                          "I have conclusively eliminated the printer, the printer drivers, the Mac OS, corrupted preference files, corrupted user accounts, incorrect Photoshop settings, incorrect printer driver settings, the ‘sticky settings' issue, and user error as possible causes of the problem.

                           

                           

                          I can say with 95% certainty that my tests, conducted using Mac OSX 10.4.11, have proved the following:

                          1. That, printing to a Canon Pro9000 or iP4500, Photoshop CS4 does not print accurate targets suitable for producing profiles.  This applies to both the No Colour Management (NCM) and the Printer Manages Colour (PMC) settings.
                          2. Photoshop CS and CS2 are not effected.

                          I did not test CS3"

                           

                          These tests took place over three weeks and involved over five days of work and the replacement of the printer on Canon's recommendation (although the printer is clearly not at fault).

                          Please note that I am using Mac OSX 10.4.11.

                           

                           

                          "What driver versions are you using?"

                          Pixma iP4500 6.9.3 (also 6.9.1, 6.9.2 and the driver supplied on the CD).

                          Pro 9000 4.8.7 (also 4.7.3, 4.8.4 and the driver supplied on the CD).

                           

                           

                          "Yes it is frustrating but in a lot of cases it is fixable as I and others have clear reported, on this and the LR forums."

                          I have not found any fix on any website referring to Canon printers, despite exhaustive searches (this includes Canon's European and US websites which are mute on the issue).

                          The ReadMe file supplied with the installation disc of CS4 refers to problems with "some Canon printers" when printing with the 'Printer Manages Color' but does not identify using 'No Color Management' nor Epson printers as having issues.

                           

                           

                           

                          I hope this post answers your questions.

                           

                          Clearly all users of CS4 need to be warned of this problem which is likely to effect other printers.  I believe that I am assisting others by issuing this warning.  It is done, not to cause mischief, but in the spirit of a public service.  CS4 users can then treat their printing results from CS4 with caution, and then conduct their own tests.  I have presented a workaround which is to use a prior version of CS4.

                          • 10. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                            Was DYP Community Member

                            My apologizes, due the fact you seemed to be discussing the issue where the driver defaults to ColorSync when setting Application Manages Color I wrongly assumed that you were using Leopard.

                             

                            I have not tried PSCS4 in 10.4.11. With the unfixable problems with 10.4.11 and Indesign I was more than happy to more to Leopard, which Canon seems to understand and have drivers that work great with LR, PSCS4 and bypass the monitor profile being introduced into RGB printing from IDCS3 & 4.

                             

                            What every was done to PSCS4 to work with Leopard may very well have made it not work correctly with your driver. However on the Canon USA site there is a driver listed as Pro9000 Printer Driver Ver. 7.14.0 (Mac OS X 10.3.9 or higher). Have you tried this driver? Also listed is iP4500 series Printer Driver Ver. 6.9.3 (Mac OS X).

                            • 11. Re: WARNING: Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                              Simon J.A. Simpson Community Member

                              Dear Was DYP,

                               

                              Apologies gratefully accepted !

                               

                              I have avoided upgrading to Leopard since it seemed to me that a whole host of problems awaited me.  It does sound from what you say that a move to Leopard might now be in order.  Or perhaps I should wait for Snow Leopard ? (smiles wryly to himself).

                               

                              I will try the drivers you refer to, although the 7.14.0 is flagged as having communications problems with the printer (do I want this ?).  The wording of the notice is not clear as to whether this only applies to OSX 10.5 (I'm understandably nervous about opening a whole new can of worms !).

                               

                              I did spend some considerable time on the phone talking with Canon's European Technical Support who now, it appears, were blissfully ignorant of the CS4 issue !

                               

                              I note you use IDCS3 and CS4.

                              Could you perhaps help me with an InDesign issue ?

                              I will post on the ID forum.

                               

                              Best wishes,

                              Simon

                              • 12. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                                Was DYP Community Member

                                I would not go cold turkey to 10.5, but instead create a separate 

                                partition for it.

                                • 13. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                                  Simon J.A. Simpson Community Member

                                  Hi Was.

                                   

                                  Other issues prevent this attractive option at the moment - but I will certainly give it try very soon.

                                   

                                  Many thanks for all your help (posting also on the ID forum).

                                   

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Simon

                                  • 14. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                                    Dinarius Community Member

                                    I'm also having problems with my Epson R2400.

                                     

                                    I'm one of the Windows crowd and have posted on the relevant forum.....

                                     

                                    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/432967?tstart=0

                                     

                                     

                                    ....but, I've had no replies.

                                     

                                    I would be grateful for any feedback over here, if that's OK.

                                     

                                    Thanks.

                                     

                                    D.

                                    • 15. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                                      izzwuzz

                                      i have same problems with pixma 800R.

                                      izzwuzz

                                      • 16. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                                        Dinarius Community Member

                                        I've just sorted my problem using the tip on this site>

                                         

                                        http://www.photographyri.com/index.php/2008/11/11/photoshop-cs4-vs-cs2-print-engine-proble

                                         

                                        I reset my printer as the Default Printer and now my prints are perfect. Exactly what I'm seeing on the monitor.

                                         

                                        If this solution hasn't been posted on some Adobe help site, it should be.

                                         

                                        D.

                                        • 17. Re: WARNING:  Canon Pro Printers and CS4 – Serious Colour Management Issue
                                          Was DYP Community Member

                                          Setting your printer as the default printer has been posted many, many

                                          times on many Adobe forums and elsewhere. I would have thought this

                                          was pretty common knowledge by now.

                                           

                                          A number if people have had issues where the default setting in printer & faxes does not always take. It is a good idea to check the CUPS interface to see for sure or to set it there. http://127.0.0.1:631/printers