35 Replies Latest reply on Jan 29, 2010 8:55 AM by RKeller9

    rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4

    yossima

      Hi all ,

       

      i have a problem with rendering AVC-HD footage with all resolutions.

      when i render the result is jumpy footage .

      i tested with P2 files and i dont get the jumpy footage , only with AVC-HD .

      any idea why ?

       

      my computer :

       

      cpu - I7 920

      motherboard - asus p6t .

      memory - 12GB .

      OS - vista 64 bit .

       

      10x

        • 1. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
          Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee

          Could you upload a short sample (< 5 sec.) somewhere so I can  test it here?

          • 2. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
            yenaphe Level 4

            What Camera did you use for your AVC-HD footage.

             

            My guess is that because there are numerous variations in the AVC-HD codec, if your camera got released (or got a new firmware) around the release of AECS4, it may have problem decoding it because of a new unsupported variation.

             

            If you provide a sample file, it will allow us to test and try to repro the bug

            • 3. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
              yossima Level 1

              Hi ,

               

              here is the link :

               

              http://rapidshare.com/files/230847526/avchd.m2ts.html

               

              i also noticed that this scenario come up only when i use openGL always on .

               

              my graphic card is - nvidia quadro FX1700 .

              • 4. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                yossima Level 1

                i use sony HDR-11 for my footage .

                 

                here is the link :

                 

                http://rapidshare.com/files/230847526/avchd.m2ts.html

                • 5. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                  Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                  I did not observe any abnormalities here on my MacBook Pro in CS4, so perhaps you are just seeing the jumps on playback, when your computer can't keep up with the data rates. The only other thing of note is the structure of the background, which drastically will increase keying problems. Naturally, a smooth screen would be better, so you will have to find ways of dealing with the block artifacts to avoid jittery edges...

                   

                  Mylenium

                  • 6. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                    Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                    i also noticed that this scenario come up only when i use openGL always on .

                     

                     

                    Of course.

                    The different OpenGL acceleration modes (Interactive, Always On) are grouped into the Fast Previews category for a reason . This is, they are mostly for preview purposes - they do not provide the same results as After Effects' main, software-based renderer. The fact that you have a (very) nice graphics card means that you may get high(er) quality previews with more complex operations, but it's still a preview mode.

                    I would set the Fast Previews menu in the Comp panel to OpenGL - Interactive, which means that the OpenGL muscle in your graphics card will assist in interactions (ie, while you adjust parameters) but then lets the software renderer provide the higher quality result.

                     

                    The only thing that's confusing is that the Fast Preview settings (in Comp panel) are for RAM previews and interactions, but not for a render you perform when exporting through the Render Queue. In that case,  if you really wanted to use OpenGL for the render (probably a bad idea, for all the reasons I just pointed out) you would have to turn on a checkbox called "Use OpenGL Renderer" in the Render Queue's Render Settings dialog. Is is possible that you also enabled this?

                     

                    BTW, although not related to this problem, you're going to have a very bad time trying to pull a good key out of something with a textured green background, uneven lighting and such a short distance to the background element. You definitely want a green material that doesn't have a texture, and place it a bit further behind

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                      yossima Level 1

                      Thanks for the helpful reply .

                       

                      10x

                      • 8. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                        AltiumMan

                        Hi all,

                         

                        I'm experiencing the exact same problem....

                         

                        My Camera is a 1 week old Sony HDR-XR520VE.

                         

                        I had CS3 but went and upgraded it late last week to get the AVCHD support.  But something is definitely screwy with the AVCHD footage; frames are jumping all over the place. It's as if the frames are rendered out of order.

                         

                        When I watch the comp. window as the render is executing, you can definitely see the frames render out of order.

                         

                        I've uploaded two files to sendspace.com. The .MTS file is the original footage taken off the camera: http://www.sendspace.com/file/1n9meu

                        The .MOV file is after that same footage is rendered out of AE CS4: http://www.sendspace.com/file/mz05ty.

                         

                        If you need any more info to help track down my problem please let me know.

                         

                        Thanks

                        Marty

                        • 9. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                          Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee

                          Marty: Your source file worked perfectly here.

                          Did you update AE to 9.01?

                          • 10. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                            AltiumMan Level 1

                            Hi Adolf.  Yes I updated to 9.01(today) before I posted to the forum. I also updated my video card drivers to the latest release just to make sure.

                             

                            When you say that the 'source file worked perfectly here', I just want to confirm that you did, in fact, try rendering out the AVCHD file.  I don't appear to have any problems _reading_ the AVCHD file from within AE and the frame ordering all seems OK when I preview frame by frame through the timeline.  The problems I am having only emerge when I try to _render_ the image.

                             

                            Can you also confirm that the .MOV file that I uploaded appears jumpy to you too when played back in a QT player?  I've only tried exporting to a QT file, (I haven't tried any other AVI or similar formats yet) so I'd like to eliminate that as a source of my problems.  If the .MOV file doesn't appear jumpy to you then it may be that my QT player is the source of the problem.

                             

                            Thanks again

                            Marty

                            • 11. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                              yenaphe Level 4

                              I've just looked at the mov file, and i have 2 jumps (after the book shelf and before the screens shows up).

                               

                              Can you try this: export your movie in an image sequence (png for exemple) and reimport it into AE.

                               

                              Create a comp from your image sequence and preview it. Do you notice jumps ? (i guess that if you import your mov file you can seen the jumps inside AE).

                              • 12. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                Hi Adolf. 

                                 

                                Hi, Marty. I'd rather not be called that, you know

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Can you also confirm that the .MOV file that I uploaded appears jumpy to you too when played back in a QT player? 

                                 

                                Yes. Not only that, but I was able to reproduce your problem when rendering to a Quicktime file.

                                I'll report the problem.

                                Thanks for pointing it out.

                                • 13. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                  AltiumMan Level 1

                                  Adolfo,

                                   

                                  Please accept my sincere apologies for mispelling your name.  I'm sure it happens a lot and I will be more careful next time.

                                   

                                  I'm glad that you have been able to reproduce my problem as it gives me some hope that it will be fixed in the near future.  With more and more hard disk based cameras (admittedly consumer) using AVCHD as a format, it is great that Adobe support this format.  It'd be good to get through the teething issues.

                                   

                                  I'll try Sebastien's suggestion re: an image sequence as well as rendering to other formats and report back to the forum.

                                   

                                  Marty

                                  • 14. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                    AltiumMan Level 1

                                    Further to Sebastien's suggestion I tried rendering as a PNG sequence.  I've attached a snapshot of the image thumbnails.  While the images are small, you should be able to make out the fact that images 106-108 are out of order, as are 131-133.  106 appears to be a duplicate of 119, 107 a duplicate of 120, and 108 a duplicate of 121.

                                     

                                    Preliminary testing with Premiere suggests it doesn't have the same problems as AE. I successfully exported a QT file from Premiere using the same .MTS source and there was no jumpiness.

                                     

                                    Marty

                                    • 15. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                      Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee

                                      Thanks again Marty for providing the information to isolate this issue.

                                      • 16. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                        Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                                        Okay, I can confirm the issue. Just tried this on my machine and it produced the same out of order frames. Unfortunately not any of my trusted alternate tools will correctly open the source file, so I cannot verify wheter this is a timecode issue, a problem with GOP ordering or anything else. Anyway, for the time being it seems you will have to resort to converting the files with whatever tool came with the camera or try to run it through Premiere Pro (which may handle this correctly) or Sony's own Vegas... Sorry for the inconvenience.

                                         

                                        Mylenium

                                        • 17. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                          AltiumMan Level 1

                                          Thanks for the update Mylenium,

                                           

                                          My preliminary investigations suggest that Premiere appears to handle these files correctly but it's a long way short of optimal. I need to chroma key all the content coming off the camera and pre-rendering the AVCHD source to an intermediate format so it can be sucked into AE for Keylighting is a pretty slow process and consumes a huge amount of disk space (but hey that's HD right?).

                                           

                                          I'm really keen to see this all fixed as it was the _only_ reason I upgraded to CS4 and a key consideration in my purchase of the AVCHD format camera.  Given the performance hit I'm getting on my PC from CS4 I'd consider returning the software if I can't get this functionality to work as advirtised. So far I'm $2500 down on the camera and $1000 on the CS4 upgrade. And I'm the leading edge of 5 other guys here who are all waiting to learn from my 'experiences'.

                                           

                                          Please keep me posted on any developments.

                                          Thanks
                                          Marty

                                          • 18. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                            Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee

                                            Marty:

                                            H264 (the codec inside AVCHD) is famous for being extremely processor intensive. In fact, no other mass-market contemporary recording format is nearly as taxing to your CPU as AVCHD is (the more higher-end formats, with much higher data rates, are actually much lighter to decode!). That's the most likely reason for the performance hit you're seeing. Converting these sources to an intermediate codec should really pay off in everything you do later - rendering times should decrease considerably, for example.

                                            I am sorry to see you're experiencing this problem with shuffled frames. Please consider that the replacement of tape mechanisms with file-based formats means that camera vendors can rush new models to market  at a pace that was unthinkable before, and sometimes these new models require the software to be updated. Sorry for the inconvenience.

                                            • 19. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                              AltiumMan Level 1

                                              Thanks again Adolfo,

                                               

                                              I think some of the performance hit stuff I'm experiencing is not just related to the AVCHD format footage.  One thing I noted today was that locked tracks on the Premiere timeline take a noticeably longer time to redraw than unlocked tracks when you zoom in and out of the timeline.  Maybe this has something to do with my PC being a tad underpowered but I can only compare it with CS3 which doesn't seem to be as slow.

                                               

                                              I suppose to Adobe's credit, the ability to batch render stuff out of Premiere in CS4 will at least mean that I can batch up all of the AVCHD files and render them to AVI (or whatever) overnight. In CS3, I would have had to hand hold each sequence conversion. But the disk usage may be the real killer.  My job is to create training videos and so we have several hundred of them, each with a talking head (weather man style). We shoot in front of a blue screen, keylight it, and convert to FLV for display on the web. So we don't do any further video editing once the footage has been cutout.  Our hope for CS4 is that we will be able to batch render multiple AVCHD footage through AE and post process automatically to FLV (we use a third party FLV compressor) as an overnight process. If we can achieve this, it will be a big saving for us in time and storage.

                                               

                                              Marty

                                              • 20. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                yenaphe Level 4

                                                Hummm.... so only rendering from AE produce a problem.

                                                 

                                                Let's try this.

                                                 

                                                Open Premiere Pro, import your clip and put it on a timeline. Right clic on it and select "create an after effect composition" (or something like this). It will open After Effect and dynamicLink it to Premiere Pro.

                                                 

                                                Now add an effect on your video, like a color correction for exemple (just any effect that produce a visible result on your frames).

                                                Now go back to Premiere Pro and render your time line.

                                                 

                                                Is you video jagged ?

                                                • 21. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                  yossima Level 1

                                                  Hello All ,

                                                   

                                                  ok ,

                                                   

                                                  after spending alot of time struggling with this issue ,i've changed the way i'm importing footage to my projects .

                                                   

                                                  first step is to transcode the AVC-HD footage to P2 with AVCHD2DVCPRO Transcoder version 1.1 ( by MainConcept )  , and then imprt the P2 to PPro or AE .

                                                  the workflow is very smooth and faster and with a minimun reduce of quality .

                                                  the only problem for me is that the files are larger compare to AVC-HD , but what the hack...

                                                   

                                                  yossi

                                                  • 22. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                    AltiumMan Level 1

                                                    Sebastien,

                                                     

                                                    I tried your suggestion but to no avail:

                                                    1) Create Premiere sequence and add .MTS footage to timeline

                                                    2) Right click >> Replace with After Effects Composition. After Effects opens up in new composition with source footage on the timeline.

                                                    3) Add Hue/Saturation filter in After Effects

                                                    4) Go back to Premiere and render the sequence.

                                                     

                                                    Result: Output is still jumpy.  After Effects still appears to be reading the MTS file directly from disk rather than reading it through Premiere.

                                                     

                                                    Marty

                                                    • 23. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                      Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                                                      AltiumMan wrote:

                                                       

                                                      After Effects still appears to be reading the MTS file directly from disk rather than reading it through Premiere

                                                       

                                                      Try the other way around: Import your Premiere timeline as a DynamicLink item into After Effects (it's a bit hidden in the import format list). this might resolve the issue. Seems like AE is having some problems with retaining the order of conformed frames from the media cache...

                                                       

                                                      Mylenium

                                                      • 24. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                        AltiumMan Level 1

                                                        Wahoo Mylenium,

                                                         

                                                        You're da man!

                                                         

                                                        I did the dynamic link thingy and it looks like it has worked. Thanks heaps.

                                                         

                                                        Some things that I found along the way ...

                                                        1) The dynamic link can only work in one way per AE/Premiere session.  So if you're doing some work in Premiere that dynamic links to AE, then you'll have to shut both apps down before you can then do something in AE that dynamic links to Premiere.  This is a bit of a pain and I don't know how it'll work if you ever have a circular reference - i.e. a Premiere Project links to AE which in turn links to Premiere.  I don't know how the media encoder will cope with that.

                                                        2) For some reason, rendering out of an AE comp that dynamically links to a Premiere project with an MTS file in it is _much_ faster than rendering an AE comp that directly references the MTS file.  On the footage I tested it with, a 30 second MTS file was suggesting 1 hour 30 minutes to render when AE reads the MTS file directly, but less than 9 minutes when using the dynamic linking. Go figure?!?

                                                        3) The Media Encoder that is now used by Premiere can render out to FLV using a 2 pass encoding but rendering out of AE only offers 1 pass. I don't know why this limitation would exist? Usually the two pass encoder is much better but I don't understand why it would be available in Media Encoder but not AE.

                                                         

                                                        Anyway, it looks like you've found me a reasonable way to work that doesn't involve me having to create huge intermediate files.

                                                         

                                                        (Mr. Adobe, this is only a work around... I still expect MTS file reading to work properly in AE).

                                                         

                                                        Thanks again

                                                        Marty

                                                        • 25. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                          Todd_Kopriva Level 8
                                                          > (Mr. Adobe, this is only a work around... I still expect MTS file reading to work properly in AE).

                                                           

                                                          To submit feature requests or file bugs, fill out this form.

                                                           

                                                          • 26. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                            Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                                                            AltiumMan wrote:


                                                            This is a bit of a pain and I don't know how it'll work if you ever have a circular reference - i.e. a Premiere Project links to AE which in turn links to Premiere.  I don't know how the media encoder will cope with that.

                                                             

                                                            Circular references are not supported currently, so you need to structure your workflow accordingly. This is however a popular request, so chances are good it will come in one of the next versions.

                                                             

                                                            AltiumMan wrote:


                                                            2) For some reason, rendering out of an AE comp that dynamically links to a Premiere project with an MTS file in it is _much_ faster than rendering an AE comp that directly references the MTS file.  On the footage I tested it with, a 30 second MTS file was suggesting 1 hour 30 minutes to render when AE reads the MTS file directly, but less than 9 minutes when using the dynamic linking. Go figure?!?

                                                             

                                                            Premiere can handle suchg streams without conforming them,i.e. it does not need to decompress frames and blow them up to full RGB. And of course, being aimed at RT playback, it surely is even more optimized.

                                                             

                                                            AltiumMan wrote:

                                                             

                                                            3) The Media Encoder that is now used by Premiere can render out to FLV using a 2 pass encoding but rendering out of AE only offers 1 pass. I don't know why this limitation would exist? Usually the two pass encoder is much better but I don't understand why it would be available in Media Encoder but not AE.

                                                             

                                                            AE does not support temporal compression natively. The various media format savers try to circumvent that, but neither of them can hold an entire composition timeline in memory or temporarily store the result of the first analysis on disk, which is what would be required for 2-pass VBR. One of these days, maybe...

                                                             

                                                            Mylenium

                                                            • 27. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                              Adolfo Rozenfeld Adobe Employee
                                                              3) The Media Encoder that is now used by Premiere can render out to FLV using a 2 pass encoding but rendering out of AE only offers 1 pass. I don't know why this limitation would exist? Usually the two pass encoder is much better but I don't understand why it would be available in Media Encoder but not AE.

                                                              Sometimes it's much better. Sometimes it's a bit better. It depends on the format, really.

                                                              Mylenium is right in his description of the limitation. AE is a professional content creation application. It's main task is creating a production file that will glow on screen, not trying to squeeze bits in time Encoding to distribution formats is there for convenience, not as the ultimate way.

                                                               

                                                              That said, there's a way in which you can encode an AE comp directly using 2 pass VBR.

                                                              The Adobe Media Encoder now can be used as a standalone application, and it can open After Effects Comps directly through Dynamic Link. No need to render an intermediate file.

                                                              So if you have AME open, just browse and open your AE comp, assign encoding setttings including 2 pass, and put it to work.

                                                              • 28. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                AltiumMan Level 1

                                                                Adolfo & Mylenium,

                                                                 

                                                                The tips and advice you guys have offered have been great. I've learned so much through the dialog and it'll make a big difference to streamlining my workflow.

                                                                 

                                                                Thanks heaps

                                                                Marty

                                                                • 29. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                  philip1978

                                                                  I realize this topic is really old, but having just bought an HMC150 and begun editing native AVCHD in PProCS4, finding this was a life-saver.  I had just finished my first project, using the PPro command to open various clips in a sequence as AE Comps for color correction and such.  Upon rendering, I noticed several clips having this jumping frames issue.  Thanks to this thread, I was able to track it down to After Effects.  I could not at the time break apart the AE Comps, however, so I isolated the clips in question, rendered the sources as mp4, covered the old clips in the AE Comps, and viola!  Luckily, it was only 3 clips.

                                                                   

                                                                  Is it my understanding then, that I should avoid indefinitely using dynamic link from a PPro CS4 sequence to open a clip as an AE Comp?  Instead I should work the other way, importing the PPro sequence into AE for color correction and such?  (This assumes native AVCHD in the PPro sequence).

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks!

                                                                  • 30. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                    FranzKeller

                                                                    So am I, with that Camera and AFX CS4, OSX 10.5.8

                                                                     

                                                                    In some cases, it's an entire video that gets distorted in time,

                                                                    as if the frames jump ahead of time or back for a bit.

                                                                     

                                                                    at other times, it's just in some of the video, or doesn't appear at all?

                                                                     

                                                                    audio seems unnafected by this

                                                                     

                                                                    >I'm experiencing the exact same problem....

                                                                     

                                                                    >My Camera is a 1 week old Sony HDR-XR520VE.

                                                                    • 31. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                      RKeller9 Level 1

                                                                      So I unistalled and reinstalled my entire CS4 over the weekend to solve a crashing issue with AE - which it did -

                                                                       

                                                                      but

                                                                       

                                                                      now it won't recognize and import .MTS files?

                                                                      (to the point of breaking my old projects)

                                                                       

                                                                      .MTS files are a SONY version of AVCHD ( why all this needless variation in names?  A Rose, etc. etc. )

                                                                       

                                                                      This is a pretty common high end consumer camera - this issue could be considered important

                                                                      • 32. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                        TimeRemapper Level 4

                                                                        Have you run the Adobe Updater (specifically, have you updated After Effects to version 9.0.2)?

                                                                        • 33. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                          RKeller9 Level 1

                                                                          Yes, I ran the adobe updater after initially installing from the DVDs.

                                                                           

                                                                          But NO I don't have 9.0.2

                                                                           

                                                                          After trying it again, I remembered that at the end of it all, it had given me this error message...

                                                                           

                                                                          "Adobe After Effects CS4 9.0.2:Failed to install"  - WHY, I wonder?

                                                                           

                                                                          All the other adobe products updated allright.

                                                                          • 34. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                            TimeRemapper Level 4

                                                                            Let's handle this issue in just one thread (the other one - Todd provided links to the downloadable updates).

                                                                            • 35. Re: rendering problem with AVC-HD in AECS4
                                                                              RKeller9 Level 1

                                                                              Forgive the multiple post, but these issues are now seeminly intertwined.

                                                                               

                                                                              The answers still have not been reached - and I am surely not the only one with such concerns.