17 Replies Latest reply on May 15, 2009 7:17 AM by the_wine_snob

    Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??

    billybantam

      Hi All,

       

      My father asked me to edit x 4 DVD-R Canon minidiscs for him. At first I didn't know how to import the files as I have a MiniDV tape camera which produces AVI files, (which PE likes!), so I clicked on "get media" and PE seemed to be doing this just fine doing something, (not sure what), and I ended up with files in the media column called "VTS_02_02_VOB etc.

       

      So I created a timeline and did all my editing, yet when I played the finished DVD in my player all of the film is judderry, (yet when I fast forward the film, it appears stable???).

       

      Now I know the original film on the DVD-R minidisc is ok as I viewed it before I imported, so it could be an importing problem.

       

      It looks like my project has to be binned and started again, very frustrated having spent ages doing it!

       

      Can anybody help me please to import the files from a Canon DVD-R minidisc camcorder which won't create judder??

       

      Incidentally, when I look at my finished DVD it shows as UDF File Format which I believe these files actually are on the minidisc so it looks as if no conversion has taken place??.

       

      I'm not mega talented with techie stuff within PE, so please bear with me, any replies in simplistic terms would be much appreciated.

       

      Regards

       

      Billy

        • 1. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
          Paul_LS Level 4

          Sounds like a field order issue. PE3 uses a DV-AVI workflow which is lower field first whereas MPEG/VOB files are upper field first. You either need to right click on each clip on the timeline and select Field Options and then select Reverse Field Dominance or start with the appropriate project preset. In the opening splash screen select New Project and then select Change Settings and select the "Hard Disk, Flash Memory Camcorder" preset.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
            billybantam Level 1

            Hi Paul,

             

            Thanks for that. I will change all the clips and Reverse Field Dominance, (I've no idea what it does though but will try it) as I don't want to start the project from scratch again.

             

            Do I also select "Flicker Removal" when I right click into Field Options" or leave it alone???

            • 3. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
              Paul_LS Level 4

              No need to select Flicker Removal. Try it with just the Reverse Filed Dominance.

              • 4. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                billybantam Level 1

                Hi Paul,

                 

                Absolutely fantastic. You have saved my project and I wouldn't of had a clue what to do. Your'e a star!

                 

                Ever grateful

                 

                Billy

                • 5. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                  billybantam Level 1

                  Hi Paul,

                   

                  One further problem I have noticed which I thought I would ask to see if you can help me before I burn my final completed project.

                   

                  Where I have inserted video transitions effects on clip joins, every single one of them is also juddery. Your suggested fix worked fine on the video clips but the only smooth transition I can get is a "right click" fade out audio and video" or fade in. All video transitions are juddery and unusable.

                   

                  I don't suppose you have a work round for these as well do you??

                   

                  Cheers

                   

                  Billy

                  • 6. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                    Paul_LS Level 4

                    Unfortunately not... the only options are 1) Import the video clips one at a time and then export each video clip from PE after having applied reverse field dominance. Then substitue/replace the clips you are currently using with these (use same names and move original clips), PE will then use these reversed field clips in your project, note no need then to apply reverse field dominance in the project. 2) Start with the hard disk project preset.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                      billybantam Level 1

                      Thanks Paul,

                       

                      It seems like a lot of work for just a few fancy transitions, and will leave alone at the risk of screwing up the project.

                       

                      The main thing is that I have "saved" my poject with your help, so I'll just put some bog standard "right click" fade out video and audio's in place of the transitions.

                       

                      Cheers again

                       

                      Billy

                      • 8. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                        Billy,

                         

                        Have you Rendered the areas with the Transitions? If you look at the area, just below the Time Ruler in the Timeline there is a small line. When it is green, it means that there is no need to Render. When it's red, to get the best (remember, it's still just an emulation, a preview) playback, just hit the Enter key. If you only wish to check, say the Transitions, you can move the WAB (Work Area Bar) to just that area of the Timeline, to only Render it.

                         

                        Also, for the best preview, set your Program Monitor to 100% and not to Fit.

                         

                        Good luck,

                         

                        Hunt

                        • 9. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                          billybantam Level 1

                          Hunt,

                           

                          Perhaps I need tuition on PE?

                           

                          I have done many films to date with quite good success and quite snazzy with transitions etc.

                           

                          However......................I have never done a render and all of my lines at the top are always red under the minutes bar and you now have me wondering if I haven't been editing quite properly as you say they should be a green line and not red, (as in your attachment). Once I have completed a project and put my dvd markers on, I simply go to "burn" with the red line showing. Is this wrong?

                           

                          I am confused now as to what rendering is and what purpose does it serve? Should I have always been rendering before I burn each project? What does it do? Should I render the whole film, or, just transitions. How do I just render the transition only and not the whole film?

                           

                          Many questions I know, but please remember, I'm not a techie so please bear with my ignorance.

                           

                          Billy

                          • 10. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                            Rendering is totally optional. It has no effect on the output, whatsoever. In PrPro, there are some uses (varies by Export format) for the Render files, but I do not think that PE uses them for anything but display - could be wrong about that, and hope someone will correct me, if so. Regardless, as I said, they play no part in your output.

                             

                            PE, like PrPro, has a DV-AVI workflow. To see the preview of the footage, including all Transitions, in as close to a perfect form, as is possible with an emulation, Rendering gives you that advantage. For most previewing, I do not bother doing it, as it creates large files, and takes time. However, when I'm looking to view my work, as well as I possibly can, I Render the areas of interest and set my Program Monitor to 100, or 200% - depends on how critically I want to view. If something looks choppy, it might well be, like your Field Reversal problem that Paul_LS helped you with. Before I tackled a choppy Transition issue, I'd want to see it in the Rendered form at 100, or 200% first. If it's STILL not looking good, then I'd try to find a solution.

                             

                            If everything checked out correctly, but I was still not happy with the results, I'd Export the Project (or parts of it), bring that into Encore and Burn a DVD RW for viewing on my set-top player and TV, or on my computer if that was the intended user playback method. I'm usually delivering DVD-video, so the TV is my final test. My workflow is a tad different, as I'm using PrPro and Encore, but I believe that PE will let one Burn part of a Project to DVD. Using a DVD RW allows me many, many test Burns, without creating a bunch of "coasters."

                             

                            I do many Projects and never Render anything. However, with some heavy Effects and Keyframing, I might Render a section a 100 times, before I'm satisfied with the results. When something does not look right, I Render it, just to check it out, as critically, as I can. If still not looking good, I reach for a DVD RW and go view on my intended display medium - the TV.

                             

                            For the Transition problem you're having, similar has cropped up in PrPro CS4 - juddering, choppy Transitions. The "cure" in that program is to add an Opacity Keyframe (no need to alter the value, just add the Keyframe) to the Clips. There was also a glitch in earlier PE versions, where Transitions did funny things, unless a 99% Opacity Keyframe was added to the Clips. Do not recall if this was version-specific, or if it exists as a problem in PE7. As a "test" you might want to try both methods - add an Opacity Keyframe to the Clips on either side of the Transition, leaving the setting at 100%. Render, set Display Monitor to 100% and view. If you still have the problem, adjust the setting of each of those two Opacity Keyframes to 99% (might have been something like 99.8%, but < 100%), Render and view at 100% on the Display Monitor. If neither helps, then I'm out of ideas right now, but I'll bet that Paul_LS, Steve or someone else will have other tests to run.

                             

                            Good luck

                             

                            Hunt

                            • 11. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                              Paul_LS Level 4

                              Hi Hunt, the effect of jittery transitions after applying reverse field domiance to MPEG files on the timeline is quite common and has been often reported  with Premiere Elements. Same thing can happen when apply titles or effects. Rendering does not help.. it is as if the application of the transition cancels out the field order change. Only way to avoid it is to change the field order then export than apply the transition to the imported video.

                              • 12. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                                billybantam Level 1

                                Hunt,

                                 

                                I'm pleased to see that rendering is optional and that I haven't been doing something wrong all this time. I was worried that I might have been!

                                 

                                If you have picked up on this thread, most of my current problems have come about because I am edting DVD-R discs of my dads. I never have any problems of note when it is my own film from mini dv tapes and is imported via my 1394 firwire connection.

                                 

                                Paul has sorted me out with the film juddering, I just thought it would add a touch of novelty by adding a few fancy transitions, but although the film had been corrected with Pauls fix, wherever I put a transition on the film it judders.

                                 

                                I always do a preview to check the project before I do my final burn on a quality DVD. I do this by burning the project to a  re-writable disc and watch it back on TV and make notes of tweaks I need to do before I am happy. The pain of this is that it takes up to a couple of hours each time to re-burn after making the adjustments.

                                 

                                I'll have a go at what you have suggested, but if it doesn't work, don't despair, as I will leave the standard "right click" fades on the project.

                                 

                                Like I say, it's only this film of my dads that is a pain!

                                 

                                Cheers again.

                                 

                                Billy

                                • 13. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                  The WAB (Work Area Bar) is an adjustable device at the top of the Timeline. It is comprised of 3 elements: the bar, two adjusters and a block in the center with vertical lines.

                                   

                                  Sometimes, it's tough to see it, as you're often looking at a zoomed in Timeline. Hit the \ (backspace) key to zoom out to the full Timeline, and you'll see the WAB. Drag the little triangles on the end - the adjusters, to either side of the area that you wish to Render, or Export. You will need to work with one at a time, until you have them on either side. This will be you new Work Area. That little box with the vertical lines in the center is to allow you to re-extend the WAB to the full Timeline - Dbl-click on it, and the WAB extends.

                                   

                                  See attached for a view of the WAB.

                                   

                                  Note: I always hit the \ key, before I Export, just to check that there are no "orphan" Clips, out beyond the area that I am zoomed to. Sometimes, these little guys can be pretty far away, and looking at the full Timeline will let you see if something is lurking way out there. You may have forgotten a Clip, or similar. This is the answer to the question: "My movie should only be 00:05:00:00, and the Exported version shows 00:15:00:00. Where did the other 10 mins. come from?" The answer is "orphans," and they are way down the Timeline.

                                   

                                  Hope that this helps,

                                   

                                  Hunt

                                  • 14. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                                    billybantam Level 1

                                    Hi Hunt (and Paul),

                                     

                                    It would appear from Paul's reply that juddering transitions are a result of fixing the clips that Paul told me to do, so I don't think there is any point in wasting more time trying to correct these.What I have learnt from you is what a WAB is and how you can use it. Funny, you are always learning something!

                                     

                                    I am also intrigued about these little "orphans" you refer to, and I myself always wonder whether there are any of there are any lurking about erroneously, but I can't seem to get your command of \ backsapce to identify any of these.

                                     

                                    Any chance you could talk me through it again as the only way I do it is to fully zoom in on the project, but this becomes a blur as the frames shoot across the screen like the clappers.

                                     

                                    Cheers

                                     

                                    Billy

                                    • 15. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                      What the "\" (Backslash) key does is to display the full Timeline at the necessary zoom ratio to show everything on it. It is usually easy to see when there are Clips out beyond where we *think* the Timeline should end. One can also compare the TimeCodes of the full Timeline and where we want the last Clip (in our edit) to be. They should match. One can also hit the End key, to get the CTI to the *real* end of the Timeline. If there is a big gap between where we *thought* the Timeline should end and where it really does, it's "orphans."

                                       

                                      Normally, they will come from loading the Timeline up with Clips, and then shortening and deleting some. Often a forgotten Clip will be left out where it was first placed on the Timeline. Next, when one is sliding Clips along the Timeline and Snap is ON, it's fairly easy to slide it too hard against the previous Clip. When this happens, a frame, or two will be "sheared off," and go to the end of the Timeline. Then, when one tightens things up, those few little remnants will remain out where the end used to be. I have not observed this behavior in PrPro, but might happen there too.

                                       

                                      I nearly always edit with Snap turned on, as I want to butt my Clips up, one against the other. I may then add Transitions, of use the the Butt-cut. I noticed that if I was less than careful, I could slam the Clip into the previous one, and loose a frame, or two. I learned to be more careful of this.

                                       

                                      Now, another tip: you do not want any "gaps" between Clips, unless you have another Video Clip above it. Gaps can cause Render/Transcode problems. To check for gaps, I use the PageUp and PageDn keys to step, Clip by Clip, through the Timeline. If the CTI seems to judder, or hiccup, it usually indicates a gap. Some of these can't even be seen clearly, when the zoom factor is all the way up to frame-view.

                                       

                                      Hunt

                                      • 16. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                                        billybantam Level 1

                                        Thanks Hunt (and Paul) for the help.

                                         

                                        The project has been "burnt" and completed. Hopefully, I will only have to work with my own AVI files in future, but the journey has taught me a few things along the way.

                                         

                                        Cheers

                                         

                                        Billy

                                        • 17. Re: Edited DVD-R minidisc in PE3.02 - all the film juddery/importing problems??
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          Billy,

                                           

                                          That is good news, and thanks for sharing it.

                                           

                                          Working with Video is always a learning experience. I try to pick up something new each day, either some useful info for later, a new technique, or even a new way of looking at the world around me.

                                           

                                          Good luck,

                                           

                                          Hunt