37 Replies Latest reply on Jun 18, 2009 8:32 PM by stuped

    inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc

    alexkent Level 1

      hi all,

       

      i'm excited about the Hasselbald support in ACR 5.4, i've loaded the release candidate build from labs.adobe.com.

       

      Does anyone know whether ACR 5.4 is supposed to support both hasselblad .fff and .3fr files (and for that matter, both .fff's made by Flexcolor and those made by Phocus, as their internal format is different) ?

       

      I've found that file support for .fff's is very mixed. Some files open (i'm opening them from 'Open in Camera Raw...' in Bridge CS4), but many do not.

      If you'd like sample files of those that don't load, try the raw sample files that Hasselblad have on their own website.

       

      http://hasselblad.co.uk/downloads/images.aspx

       

      For me, none of these images preview in Bridge and none will open in ACR.

      But i do have some .fff files from an H1D which preview and load fine!

       

      am i missing something, or is .fff file support really patchy ?

       

      regards,

       

      alex.

        • 1. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
          Thomas Knoll Level 2

          Only ".3FR" is supported.  ".FFF" is not supported.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
            alexkent Level 1

            noooooooooo....

             

            you've offered me this dream then snatched it away!

            i'm now weeping in front of my computer.

             

            hasselblad have for years been advising us to archive our .fff files and ditch our .3fr's.

            also, shooting tethered with any Hasselblad camera to Phocus or Flexcolor can only produce .FFF files.

             

            both of these things i'm sure you know, is there any plan to support .FFF files in a future release ? (please please please)

             

             

             

             

            aw.

             

            alex.

            • 3. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
              Dinarius Level 1

              Very disappointing.

               

              Please tell me that ACR 5.5 will support .fff.

               

              D.

              • 4. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                DavidHarradine Level 1

                Yes very disappointing indeed, we are only shooting tethered.

                 

                Can someone provide or direct me to some explanation ?

                 

                Thanks,

                • 5. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                  DavidHarradine wrote:

                   

                  Can someone provide or direct me to some explanation ?

                   

                  Ya might wanna go ask Hasselblad why they cling to a goofey .fff format when they "could" be writing out DNG files (like they did at one point before a firmware update turned that ability off in their cameras).

                   

                  If this pi$$es you off, be sure to let Hasselblad know your feelings...

                  • 6. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                    DavidHarradine Level 1

                    Sure agreed - but Nikon and Canon don't do DNG and we can still easily get in to ACR with NEF or CRW !

                    • 7. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                      Dinarius Level 1

                      Yes, it does annoy me.

                       

                      But, I shoot multi-shot (and therefore tethered) 99.9% of the time.

                       

                      Also, I need the DACS in Flexcolor (Phocus is very poor, as far as I'm concerned, at least on Windows).

                       

                      In an ideal world, I would like to capture multi-shot via Flexcolor and then open the files in ACR for final tweaking.

                       

                      ACR is on another planet compared to either Flex or Phocus and is a virtual one-stop-shop for me when shooting with the Canon. Would that it were the same with the Hassie.

                       

                      Are DACS incorporated into the file during capture, or only after saving out from Flexcolor as TIFF? If the former, then a file format readable by ACR would be a god-send.

                       

                      The cynic in me says that this is all being done to protect Phocus. But, I guess there must be a technical reason for it - DACS not being incorporated, for example?

                       

                      Whatever the reason, this announcement really doesn't amount to much. Hopefully there will be further developments.

                       

                      D.

                      • 8. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                        Seilo H3DII39MS Level 1

                        Stupid idea NOT to support 3fff files.

                         

                        if Abode says that it support Hasselblad, it should be 3fff.

                         

                        I have been shooting with Imacon/Hasselblad since Ixpress96. All my pictures are in 3fff.

                         

                        What I know my friends in Europe, all are shooting most of time in tethered, meaning files are 3fff.

                         

                        Our studio have about 500.000 hasselblad files, all in 3fff format. And Yes still using FlexColor, but waiting good support to LIGHTROOM and Hasselblad combination.

                        • 9. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                          Thomas Knoll Level 2

                          >Stupid idea NOT to support 3fff files.

                           

                          As for ".FFF" files, there basically two completely different raw formats using that extension.  The ".FFF" raw files created by Phocus are completely different than the ".FFF" created by FlexColor.  Each of these two versions of ".FFF" format would require a significant amount of engineering work by Adobe to support.

                           

                          Actually, if you look at the business case, the real "stupid" thing for Adobe to do is to spend engineering time to support *any* of the Hasselblad raw formats.  The total market share of digital medium format camera backs is tiny, and Hasselblad only has part of that tiny market. So the number of incremental sales of Photoshop or Lightroom that Adobe can expect do make because of Hasselblad support are probably less than 100 (maybe less than 10), which does not even come close to paying for the engineering required.

                           

                          Given the negative return on investment, Adobe has limited resources for this project, and of the three different kinds of raw formats Hasselblad uses, we decided that supporting the version saved by the cameras themselves was the most useful.  If you are willing to use Hasselblad software on a computer to shot tethered, or to convert from ".3FR" format to one of two kinds of ".FFF" format, you can just use that same software to convert the files to ".DNG" format and they will work fine in existing Adobe software.

                          • 10. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                            DavidHarradine Level 1

                            That is fair enough and makes perfect sense. I just think those dedicated adobe users who have been struggling with the clunky Phocus software had a moment of joy when they saw all the new Hasselblad support promoted in ACR 5.4, only to then feel a little cheated when limitations of the support were discovered.

                            • 11. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                              alexkent Level 1

                              Thomas, Jeff, and all the other fine Adobe peeps.

                               

                              Sorry, we all sound desperately ungrateful.

                              I think it's awesome you've added support for .3fr, thanks!

                               

                              I think all the Hasselblad users know that this is a problem that Hassy have burdened us with. It is a bizarre situation; one manufacturer produces the camera, digital back, and processing software and yet the standard workflow requires converting between two raw file formats. I am regularly teaching this system to new users and they all get a WTF? look when I explain this to them.

                              I was hoping (and expecting) that Hassy would drop .fff with Phocus and allow us to work with .3fr (and or .dng) files directly. Since that didn't happen, we're all rather hoping that 3rd parties will help us out...

                              As you know, Apple have recently added support for .fff and .3fr to the system-wide raw processing engine in osx (Aperture, Preview.app, Quicklook, etc.). So the last piece of the compatibility puzzle would have been for you guys to add native support to ACR and Lightroom. I know the convert to .dng route has been around for years, but since converted files can't be read back into Phocus, we're stuck with duplicating all our files just for compatibility (not ideal).

                              I hope this explains a little about the disappointment in hearing 'Hasselblad Support in ACR' followed by finding it's only for the .3fr files. This is pent-up frustration being released.

                               

                               

                              I will go ask Hasselblad why they stick to .fff

                              Moving forward, wouldn't it be great if Phocus 2.0 changed to have .dng as it's native file format ? (convert .3fr to .dng on import, shoot straight to .dng when tethered, edit .dng's natively).

                               

                               

                               

                              re: Dinarius

                              The 'DACS' are only applied at processing time in Phocus or Flexcolor. i believe the reason for this is the amount of cpu power required to do this processing in realtime inside the camera is unfeasible. Canon, and i think PhaseOne, offer similar lens correction technologies which are also only applied at raw processing stage (in Canon's Digital Photo Professional and PhaseOne's CaptureOne).

                              That said, the only one of the three 'DACS' technologies that'd you miss is the lens distortion correction, as both vignetting and chromatic aberration can be corrected in ACR (although not in a single-click as in Phocus/Flex).

                               

                              regards all,

                               

                              alex.

                               

                              Message was edited by: alexkent [typo]

                              • 12. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                Panoholic
                                hasselblad have for years been advising us to archive our .fff files and ditch our .3fr's

                                 

                                Well, one has to be a genuine layman to archive a derivative instead of the original.

                                 

                                The basic consideration is always the same: do not carry out irreversible changes before archiving, if you can do those changes later.

                                 

                                You can convert the 3FR file in FFF any time later (save every version of the software you are using), but you can not create a 3FR from the FFF.

                                 

                                The same is true regarding archiving DNG instead of the native raw files.

                                • 13. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                  sns700 Level 1

                                  Jeff,

                                   

                                  Hasselblad's goofy file formats do things that DNG doesn't do and probably never will due to the reasons given by Mr. Knoll in a post seen further in this thread. Sure you can fix CA, Vignetting and Lens correcting perspective in Photoshop but in a much more laborious and probably inaccurate fashion.

                                   

                                  I shoot tethered for the most part so I haven't imported from cards at all and don't know if DNGs are directly possible, but with my copy of Phocus (the latest until the new update that I can't wait for) you can still output to DNG. In fact in a way similar to Russell Brown's Image Processor you can output to a variety of formats in one fell swoop. Limited to two different formats at a time so far, but it has been suggested that more will be possible in the future.

                                   

                                  I too was surprised to see the results when I opened a .fff file and saw the image but apparently the image was the files preview as it was a small size. Since I shoot tethered I guess that I never actually have a 3FR file, I think it must be changed to a .fff when it lands on my hard drive.

                                   

                                  As an owner and user of Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture Phocus and Flexcolor I have been trying to figure out my path to the perfect workflow. They all have their strengths and weakness' for me. Aperture does recognize Hasselblad files and works very well with my Nikon D3 too even allowing me to limited tethering possibilities. But without question Phocus processes Hasselblad's captures that I make to a significantly superior file for my uses in my eyes without me having to do much. If I want to alter my captures, Phocus allows me many paths to alter a bunch of the parameters to my hearts content and hopefully I won't X@%& up my files by messing with them too much .

                                   

                                  I thank Adobe for continuing to update their apps to work with the slew of options in the market today, certainly a daunting task. I hope that I will somehow be able to use ACR with my .fff files sometime in the future.

                                   

                                  You may have negative feelings toward Hasselblad if I read your remark correctly but I thank them for forging ahead with Phocus and although it is very much a work in progress, it is a very nice piece of software in its current state. As with the continuous improvements we have all seen with Adobe's apps, Hasselblad with a much smaller audience is making the same sorts of incremental progress on their baby.

                                   

                                  Sorry for posting so late in the thread, I don't read this forum and was lead here by a link from the Hasselblad Digital Forum while trying to suss out ACR's relations with Hasselblad's RAWs after updating to 5.4 yesterday.

                                   

                                  Sincerely,

                                   

                                  Scott Smith

                                  • 14. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                    Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                    sns700 wrote:

                                     

                                    You may have negative feelings toward Hasselblad if I read your remark correctly....

                                     

                                    You read correctly because at one point Hasselblad/Imacon supported DNG and included the ability to write DNGs out of their cameras. However, with a firmware update they removed that ability to write DNGs and claimed that DNG as a file format wasn't suitable for containing their raw files. What they didn't say was that they (the Hasselblad engineers) didn't have the skills to figure out how to write the lens correction data in the DNG in a compatible way and didn't want to wait for Adobe to make any necessary changes to make it easier for them. So, now you have a situation where Hasselblad's raw file format is so screwed up that two different software products produce two different flavors of the same file extension–which is really stooopid like Nikon using NEF for their cameras and scanners...

                                     

                                    I'm also a bit personally tweaked at Hasselblad closing off their system they was they have. I'm a former Blad shooter (still have my old film Blads) but decided to go Phase One/Mamiya for medium format cameras and backs.

                                    • 15. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                      sns700 Level 1

                                      Well there you have it.... As I understand it Hasselbad is making 

                                      their system perform in ways that couldn't if it wasn't integrated, in 

                                      the same way that the 35mm DSLR's are. Hasselblad still sells several 

                                      bodies that work with other brands of backs and from what they have 

                                      shown so far, will continue until there is no market for them.

                                       

                                      From the minimal feedback of Phase One/Mamiya users that I have 

                                      encountered, none have been happy.

                                      If I understand correctly you come from the Canon path ( I never liked 

                                      Canon and have been a Nikon guy since I bought my first film camera 35 

                                      years ago. Granted that Nikon missed the boat digitally until recently 

                                      and it wasn't until the D3 put them back in the game in a stunning way 

                                      that my wallet opened up) and the Capture One software was the logical 

                                      one for you to use with your Canon files.

                                       

                                      Following that track it is easy to see your logical choice to go with 

                                      Phase One as your medium format camera. I'm not very knowledgeable in 

                                      things Phase but don't they use a proprietary file format too? What 

                                      makes theirs any less goofy? Can you capture directly to DNG with Phase?

                                       

                                      Thanks,

                                      Scott Smith

                                       

                                       

                                      SmithNelson Photographers

                                      8743 Washington Boulevard

                                      Culver City, CA 90232

                                      310•837•9184

                                      • 16. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                        Dinarius Level 1

                                        Alex,

                                         

                                        Thanks for putting me right on the DACS issue.

                                         

                                        I guess then that there's no way round the aim of being able to open a raw file in ACR that contains DACS - thus permitting the use of the Adjustment Tool, for example.

                                         

                                        Pity, coz Phocus is a long way from being anywhere near ACR, and working on TIFFs in ACR just isn't the same.

                                         

                                        D.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        alexkent wrote:

                                         

                                        I think all the Hasselblad users know that this is a problem that Hassy have burdened us with. It is a bizarre situation; one manufacturer produces the camera, digital back, and processing software and yet the standard workflow requires converting between two raw file formats. I am regularly teaching this system to new users and they all get a WTF? look when I explain this to them.

                                        I was hoping (and expecting) that Hassy would drop .fff with Phocus and allow us to work with .3fr (and or .dng) files directly. Since that didn't happen, we're all rather hoping that 3rd parties will help us out..

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        re: Dinarius

                                        The 'DACS' are only applied at processing time in Phocus or Flexcolor. i believe the reason for this is the amount of cpu power required to do this processing in realtime inside the camera is unfeasible.

                                         

                                        regards all,

                                         

                                        alex.

                                        • 17. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                          Panoholic Level 2
                                          What they didn't say was that they (the Hasselblad engineers) didn't have the skills to figure out how to write the lens correction data in the DNG in a compatible way

                                           

                                          Jeff, this is hogwash (I am in a charitable mood). The "Hasselblad engineers" did not have the skill to figure out how to write the lens correction data in DNG in a "compatible way", because there is no such way defined in the DNG specs.

                                           

                                          In other words: they were right saying, that DNG as a file format wasn't suitable for containing their raw images.

                                          • 18. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                            Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                            Panoholic wrote:

                                             

                                            Jeff, this is hogwash (I am in a charitable mood). The "Hasselblad engineers" did not have the skill to figure out how to write the lens correction data in DNG in a "compatible way", because there is no such way defined in the DNG specs.

                                             

                                            There were indeed ways of putting the lens data in private maker notes (at least I'm pretty sure that was the case) but that would have required more on-camera processing power to correctly place the lens data in the private maker notes so rather than work with Adobe, Hasselblad decided to pull _ALL_ DNG file format support off their cameras in a firmware update-with no warning to their users. So, either they didn't have the skills, processing power or they didn't have the patients (or all three) to resolve the issue so they just abandoned DNG even after working to put DNG support into their cameras.

                                            • 19. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                              One option for a camera that writes DNG 1.1/1.2 raw files is to write the

                                              lens correction metadata into the DNG maker note.

                                               

                                              The resulting DNG will be readable in all DNG 1.1/1.2 readers (e.g., Camera

                                              Raw since version 2.4, all versions of Lightroom), but only applications

                                              that understand the private maker note (e.g., the software that comes

                                              bundled with the camera) will be able to extract the lens correction

                                              metadata and apply the appropriate image processing.

                                               

                                              The pros/cons of this approach depend on the goals, as well as whose

                                              perspective you're considering (the end user, the software designer, or the

                                              camera designer).

                                               

                                              Eric

                                               

                                              P.S. (looks like my reply overlapped with Jeff's)

                                              • 20. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                sns700 wrote:

                                                 

                                                Following that track it is easy to see your logical choice to go with 

                                                Phase One as your medium format camera. I'm not very knowledgeable in 

                                                things Phase but don't they use a proprietary file format too? What 

                                                makes theirs any less goofy? Can you capture directly to DNG with Phase?

                                                 

                                                 

                                                You're making assumptions that are incorrect. I do NOT use Capture One with my Canon files...why would I? I'm pretty good at using Camera Raw and Lightroom (having played a tiny part in their development and coauthor of Real World Camera Raw).

                                                 

                                                As for Phase One support for DNG, nope...they can't figure out a way to do it (easily) either directly from the camera or tethered. But I have no problem with that..they haven't given lip service to a standard and then run away from it when it became a bit difficult as Hasselblad did. No, I chose Phase and a P65+ back because I think their new 6x4.5 camera and the new lenses are superior to Hasselblad. I run Capture One when tethered or importing off of cards and convert to Linear DNG in Capture One and do all the rest of the processing in ACR/LR. While it is a linear DNG and thus demosiaced, it's still in linear so I find most all the processing parameters close enough to raw as to be less of an issue.

                                                 

                                                The real problem I have is with Hasselblad saying they would support a standard raw file format and then reneging with what I though was a sneaky firmware update to remove the DNG format from their cameras...

                                                • 21. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                  alexkent Level 1

                                                  for what it's worth, the rumour i heard was that they didn't have enough processing power in that (H2) generation of cameras.

                                                  obviously there is a lot of supposition here, but if they really couldn't make the camera's processor generate the .dng fast enough to not slow down the whole camera, it seems forgivable that they moved to a filetype which worked with the camera's capabilities.

                                                   

                                                  Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                                   

                                                  either they didn't have the skills, processing power or they didn't have the patients (or all three) to resolve the issue so they just abandoned DNG even after working to put DNG support into their cameras.

                                                  • 22. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                    Panoholic Level 2
                                                    One option for a camera that writes DNG 1.1/1.2 raw files is to write the lens correction metadata into the DNG maker note

                                                     

                                                    Any raw data creator can write anything in the maker specific part, so what?

                                                     

                                                    The subject was writing the lens correction data in DNG in a compatible way (Jeff's words). What would be the point of creating a DNG in-camera, while the image could have been processed properly only outside of the DNG spec?

                                                     

                                                    Why did not the Adobe DNG converter create a 1.2 conforming mosaic DNG  from the Panasonic raw files? Perhaps because that would have been nonsensical - just like with the Hasselblad files?

                                                    • 23. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                      Panoholic wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Any raw data creator can write anything in the maker specific part, so what?

                                                       

                                                      So...if Hasselblad had the processing capability and the programing skills (and the interest), they could have tucked their lens data in private maker notes and updated Capture One to read the DNGs from their cameras and decode the lens data from the private maker notes they added in the camera. They chose not to and used a firmware update to strip DNG compatibility from cameras that were widely touted as having the ability to write DNG files. If I were a Hasselblad user and bought a camera because of that, I would be a bit perturbed...(when this happened, there WERE a lot of Hasselblad users who WERE perturbed).

                                                       

                                                      In the aftermath, we now have .3fr and two flavors of .fff files produced by Hasselblad cameras and software....and this is good for users how?

                                                      • 24. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                        sns700 Level 1

                                                        In the aftermath, we now have .3fr and two flavors of .fff files produced by Hasselblad cameras and software....and this is good for users how?

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        Long time Hasselblad user and it works for me. The old version .fff files are converted automatically when opened in the new software and I have never seen a 3FR file, so in my workflow there is only one flavor that is relevant, the latest iteration of the .fff.

                                                         

                                                        I expect that very few if any Hasselblad users bought the kit because it could capture to the DNG format, some hoped to be able to include DNG's into some aspect of their workflow. I think that most picked the system because they thought that it was the best option available for their needs, it was and still remains the best for me.

                                                        • 25. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                          alexkent Level 1

                                                          Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                                           

                                                          In the aftermath, we now have .3fr and two flavors of .fff files produced by Hasselblad cameras and software....and this is good for users how?

                                                           

                                                          Actually there are at least three flavours of .fff files produced by Hasselblad products, as you can scan to .fff from their X1 and X5 scanners (thus producing non-mosaic .fff's).

                                                          But is having multiple data types within one filetype really the problem? Compare this to the much venerated .dng, in one filetype we can have 'raw' mosaic linear data, non-mosaic linear, and i believe non-linear images (since the ability to convert .tif's and .jpg's into .dng). Everyone seems to think that's ok.

                                                           

                                                          I agree having two different filetypes (.3fr and .fff) in one camera/software workflow is pretty stupid, but somehow making out that .fff is an evil format and thus cannot be supported is ridiculous.

                                                           

                                                          I guess the other question is at what point did camera raw filetypes become an interchange format ? We'd like them to be because it'd be convenient but that was never part of the design brief (i seem to remember John Nack saying a fairly similar thing regarding the complexity of the .psd file format).

                                                          • 26. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                            robertpoll Level 1

                                                            I have to say I can somewhat understand Adobe's point on not wanting to invest too much in Hasselblad support, but there is another option that would (I believe) require minimal investment and be a huge help for many users.

                                                             

                                                            I think quite a few Hasselblad users would like to use Lightroom for cataloguing/sorting/ranking and so on but would be happy to do raw processing in Phocus/Flex. To me this is the best of both worlds, particularly if you also shoot some 35mm. To enable this all ACR/LR needs to do is to read the preview, (and not allow editing in develop) from the .fff. That way the .fff could be managed as any other image would be in LR (or Bridge I guess) and you could add Phocus/Flex as an external editor.

                                                             

                                                            I think this should be very easy to implement as the .fff format is actually contained within a JPEG file format (for recent files, and TIFF for older files). In fact, if you take an .fff file and change the extension to .jpg you can import into LR with any version of ACR (i.e. you don't even ned 5.4). It seems all LR would need to do is to treat .fff as it does jpeg and you would have something workable. Ideally you'd disable editing as any edits in LR wouldn't be reflected in the raw file but to be honest I'd be happy with it without that even. The only other shortcoming I can see is that you wouldn't be able to zoom to 100%, but I could live without that.

                                                             

                                                            ...rob

                                                            • 27. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                              robertpoll Level 1

                                                              A correction to my last post (thanks to Panaholic). The format is still tif with the new .fff files. Interestingly they will import to Lightroom if you rename to either .jpg or .tif.

                                                               

                                                              Also, another step closer to a solution (I think) at least on a mac. If you create a link (a hard link, not a symlink) i.e. 'ln filename.fff filename.tif' you can then import into Lightroom and manage your photos there. You can set up Phocus as an external editor but that doesn't seem to work - I think as Phocus won't take a filename as a parameter when it starts.

                                                               

                                                              Still, it seems close to something that's workable. Obviously though don't try this on any master copies of images at this stage. It's possible that LR will damage the .fff.

                                                               

                                                              ...rob

                                                              • 28. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                Dinarius Level 1

                                                                In Bridge, if I rename a multi-shot .fff file to a .tif file, it is reduce from 224Mb to 2.24Mb.

                                                                 

                                                                Also, even if it wasn't reduced in size, the lens corrections (DACS) are not embedded.

                                                                 

                                                                Since most of what I do is multi-shot and therefore tethered to Flexcolor, most of this debate doesn't affect me.

                                                                 

                                                                But, if I could capture multi-shot to Flexcolor AND if the DACS were embedded *during* capture AND if the resulting file was then readable by ACR, I would be in heaven! ;-)

                                                                 

                                                                I respect Hasselblad's efforts with Phocus, but ACR is on another planet.

                                                                 

                                                                Hasselblad should stick to what they do very, very well (making great cameras) and do whatever it takes to make files captured while tethered to a computer readable by the likes of ACR. How many of us use Adobe cameras?

                                                                 

                                                                D.

                                                                • 29. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                  robertpoll Level 1

                                                                  Dinarius,

                                                                   

                                                                  That's interesting - it seems not to change the filesize with single shot files. If you can get a MS image to me I'll see if I can try to find out what is going on. Are you on a mac or windows?

                                                                   

                                                                  Personally I think it's unlikely we'll see DACS lens corrections anywhere outside of Phocus, even if the raw data to do the corrections is accessible I think Hasselblad will want to protect the algorithms as, rightly or wrongly, they see them as a distinct competitive advantage; I would imagine they would not want to see them used when other backs are used on the Hasselblad system and making them available outside of Phocus could make this possible. For example, 28mm + H Body + leaf back with DACS.

                                                                   

                                                                  The avenue I'm persuing won't help you at all with raw processing, dacs or no dacs but it could help with managing images. I can see advantages in giving Lightroom visibiity of the Hasselblad files (without the ability to process them), but  I can already see the thumbs in Bridge on my windows machine for .fff (but curiously not reliably on mac) so it's already there. Not sure why macos cant see them as it's supposed to have .fff support.

                                                                   

                                                                  ...rob

                                                                  • 30. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                    Dinarius Level 1

                                                                    Rob,

                                                                     

                                                                    Thanks for that.

                                                                     

                                                                    You could be right about Hasselblad wanting to protect algorithms. If it were possible to embed DACS during capture, wouldn't that protect them? Personally, I think they should concentrate on selling cameras! ;-)

                                                                     

                                                                    D.

                                                                     

                                                                    ps. Lest anyone be confused by Rob's post, DACS are also embedded in files by Flexcolor, not just Phocus.

                                                                    • 31. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                      Panoholic Level 2
                                                                      In Bridge, if I rename a multi-shot .fff file to a .tif file, it is reduce from 224Mb to 2.24Mb

                                                                       

                                                                      D.

                                                                       

                                                                      if you download http://www.cryptobola.com/PhotoBola/free/RawnalyzeTL.exe (Windows based, runs with Crossover etc. as well.), start it and specify the multi-shot FFF file, the program creates a text file named "originalfilename.ext.taglist.txt"

                                                                      This text file contains the entire structure of the TIFF. If you upload it (or post it but as CODE, so that the formatting is kept), we may find out the reason for this size change in Bridge.

                                                                       

                                                                      I suspect this too is an "illegal" TIFF. I have such samples from Hasselblad, I don't even know which camera (the make and model are not in the tags), I don't even know the image size because the image is not described in the tags designed for that purpose. It is only natural that there is no Exif info.

                                                                       

                                                                      If your image looks like that, then Hasselblad is still committing this crime.

                                                                       

                                                                      (Note: RawnalyzeTL will complain, that it does not know the camera, ignore that.)

                                                                       

                                                                      Cheers

                                                                      Gabor

                                                                      • 32. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                        robertpoll Level 1

                                                                        Dinarius,

                                                                         

                                                                        Yes, doing the DACS in camera would protect the algos, but I'd suspect that it would slow the camera down unacceptably. Also, right now you can turn DACS off and doing it in camera would mean you lose that flexibility - you could argue that that's not a big deal though I suppose.

                                                                         

                                                                        Thanks for clarifying on flex/dacs - I've been using phocus for a while now and tend to forget about flex!

                                                                         

                                                                        I hear what you're saying about Hass concentrating on cameras. The reality today though is that the camera is a combination of software and hardware. Hasselblad would agrue (I think) that Phocus/Flex gives superior results vs. other raw processors - Having looked briefly at the DNG/ACR option I'd agree (I know not everyone would).

                                                                         

                                                                        That said, there are quite a lot of 'commodity' features in Phocus/Flex - sorting, ranking, cropping, straightening... that arguably are a waste of effort for Hass to develop. Personally I think the ideal would be for the Phocus raw processor to be a plug-in to Lightroom (just like ACR is). That way Hasselblad could keep all of the proprietary 'special stuff' without the overhead of developing GUIs and all of the 'standard' tools. Given that ACR is a plug in to LR you have to imaging that it's possible...?

                                                                         

                                                                        ...rob

                                                                        • 33. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                          robertpoll Level 1

                                                                          ...I'd be interested to hear Adobe's views on the option opening up the API that (presumably) LR uses to interface with ACR. Once that was done they wouldn't have to worry about 3fr/fff support or Hasselblad's file formats changing as it wouldn't be their issue. Potentially other raw processors (like raw developer or even C1) could plug in too which would make LR a very attractive to users of those products.

                                                                           

                                                                          - rob

                                                                          • 34. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                            xbytor2 Level 4

                                                                            Personally I think the ideal would be for the Phocus raw processor to be a plug-in to Lightroom (just like ACR is).

                                                                             

                                                                            ACR is Photoshop/Bridge plugin. It is not an LR plugin. Swapping in a new raw processor, in either case, would be a non-trivial exercise, regardless.

                                                                            • 35. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                              Dinarius Level 1

                                                                              robertpoll wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              Dinarius,

                                                                               

                                                                              Yes, doing the DACS in camera would protect the algos, but I'd suspect that it would slow the camera down unacceptably. Also, right now you can turn DACS off and doing it in camera would mean you lose that flexibility - you could argue that that's not a big deal though I suppose.

                                                                               

                                                                              ...rob

                                                                               

                                                                              Rob,

                                                                               

                                                                              Shooting multi-shot, speed isn't an issue. I'd happily wait a few seconds more if I knew I had the option of finishing off the file in other programs - e.g. ACR.

                                                                               

                                                                              As to turning off DACS, yes you can, but if the lenses need it, then you have no choice.

                                                                               

                                                                              D.

                                                                              • 36. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                                Dinarius Level 1

                                                                                Panoholic wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                In Bridge, if I rename a multi-shot .fff file to a .tif file, it is reduce from 224Mb to 2.24Mb

                                                                                 

                                                                                D.

                                                                                 

                                                                                if you download http://www.cryptobola.com/PhotoBola/free/RawnalyzeTL.exe (Windows based, runs with Crossover etc. as well.), start it and specify the multi-shot FFF file, the program creates a text file named "originalfilename.ext.taglist.txt"

                                                                                This text file contains the entire structure of the TIFF. If you upload it (or post it but as CODE, so that the formatting is kept), we may find out the reason for this size change in Bridge.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I suspect this too is an "illegal" TIFF. I have such samples from Hasselblad, I don't even know which camera (the make and model are not in the tags), I don't even know the image size because the image is not described in the tags designed for that purpose. It is only natural that there is no Exif info.

                                                                                 

                                                                                If your image looks like that, then Hasselblad is still committing this crime.

                                                                                 

                                                                                (Note: RawnalyzeTL will complain, that it does not know the camera, ignore that.)

                                                                                 

                                                                                Cheers

                                                                                Gabor


                                                                                Gabor,

                                                                                Thanks for the offer, but since I shoot multi-shot all the time, it's not really of interest to me to process outside of Flexcolor.

                                                                                D.
                                                                                • 37. Re: inconsistent Hasselblad .fff and .3fr loading ACR 5.4rc
                                                                                  stuped Level 1

                                                                                  Hi guys

                                                                                  FYI DNG support wasn't exactly removed, rather it was moved. Creating DNGs in camera turned out to be too processor intensive and was slowing the camera shooting rates. You can of course export DNGs direct from the Import interface.

                                                                                  I agree the whole two file formats issue is a pain and was talking to the Danes about it just a few weeks ago. As for saying that they were "too stupid" to implement their (excellent) DAC corrections in the DNG container, that is simply not the case. Hasselblad are constantly exploring ways of making files more compatible with third party software while protecting their IP.

                                                                                  Nick-T